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Mountain bikers are a scourge wherever they are found



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 12th 14, 02:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.soc
Blackblade[_2_]
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Posts: 214
Default Mountain bikers are a scourge wherever they are found

A short while ago you were representing all hikers. Now it's
just the 'serious' ones. What, precisely, is your definition of 'serious'
? I'm willing to bet it's anyone who happens to agree with you :-).
What a joke.

The only joke here is you and your defense of mountain biking
on trails. Occasional hikers don't count. The only group that counts in this
discussion are serious hikers. If you had the brains you were born with you
would have known that from day one.


Thank you for confirming exactly what I thought you meant all along. As far as you're concerned, you and those nearly exactly like you are the only deserving users of the trails. Sorry, they belong to the public and one tiny minority doesn't get to dictate ... thank goodness.

Your mental attitude is not of the slightest concern to me and you

have, so far, failed to provide me with any data that this view is anything
other than a minority, fanatical sub-set of nutcases.

My mental attitude is that of all serious hikers.


Prove it. Stop pontificating and prove it. There are

millions of hikers, as a report which you posted recently on outdoor recreation
confirmed. Of those, how many are 'serious' and how many agree with you
? I'm willing to bet that you don't know ... so, if you don't know, stop
asserting that you do and admit that it's YOUR OPINION.

Lone individuals and couples hiking various trails many times
a year are serious hikers. Occasional hikers, youth groups, idiots walking their
dogs and once a year family groups don't count.


I'm sure they'll be delighted to hear that their taxes count for nothing and that Ed Dolan will be protecting their interests ....

I'm not promoting anything other than free choice. As you

concede, if I wish to 'risk' my own life and limb that is solely my
concern.

Yes, indeed, who cares about your life and limb, but your
defense of mountain biking on trails encourages others to think it is safe, when
it clearly Is not safe. It is why I hold you culpable.


You've provided nothing material to counteract the real risk levels which are, I reiterate, fatailies 0.00123/million miles and injuries 1.54/1,000 exposures. If you think it's higher ... then prove it.

Since those fatality and risk levels are low compared with many daily activities mountainbiking can, quite justifiably, be quantified as relatively safe.

However, since YOU and your minority of fellow travellers are

completely unwilling to compromise then, no, I don't give a damn about you
anymore. You would happily see me banned from all trails so that you could
enjoy them in splendid isolation whilst requiring me to pay for them through my
taxes.

This is what I mean about extremism begetting extremism.


As a biker on a trail, you are an interloper and a usurper.
The trails were there for the use and enjoyment of hikers long before mountain
bikes were ever invented. You need to get your own trails far removed from
hiking trails. There can be no sharing of trails because it is a conflict of
both means and purpose.


Yawn. You're going in circles Ed.

The reason it appears so to you is that you never take
anything in the context in which it is said. I could do the same to you, but it
is too tiresome to even think about doing. I like to move on.


I've noticed that you do like to move on ... when your ridiculous pronouncements are shown as the nonsense that they are.

I challenge you, yet again, to backup what you've just said. I am willing to bet that you can't show that I've taken contrary positions because I am very careful to be consistent. You just wander around metaphorically lobbing the kitchen sink into every argument ... irrespective of whether you're now actively undermining your own earlier positions.

I am consistent about what matters and do not get hung up on
details like you do. Half the time, my details are provided for your amusement,
but like all Englishmen you do not take notice of amusement. My first duty here
is to enjoy myself. Nothing will ever stand in the way of that.


Ed, I'm simply here because I find argument amusing ... but you are becoming tiresome because of the paucity of yours.
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  #12  
Old May 12th 14, 02:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.soc
Blackblade[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 214
Default Mountain bikers are a scourge wherever they are found

I am amending the above with the following: Mountain bikers
need NOT get their own trails other than at resorts. Resorts are already so
messed up that a few mountain biking trails there for the idiots won't make any
difference. Other than that, I do not want mountain bikers to have any trails at
all. There are plenty of roads and streets for them. All a new set of trails
would do is mess up the rest of the countryside still unspoiled. If single track
trails are attractive to them, then they can get off their bikes and walk them
like everybody else. Hells Bells, where did I ever get the notion that mountain
bikers deserve their own trails. They don't! Instead, they deserve to have their
dumb asses kicked all the way to Hell!


At last, some honesty. This is what I always thought you wanted.

And, I can see why you didn't want to say this earlier ... because, now, you have clearly shown that you are an extremist on the fringe.

  #13  
Old May 16th 14, 05:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.soc
EdwardDolan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 539
Default Mountain bikers are a scourge wherever they are found

"Blackblade" wrote in message ...

Edward Dolan wrote:

I am amending the above with the following: Mountain bikers
need NOT get their own trails other than at resorts. Resorts are already so
messed up that a few mountain biking trails there for the idiots won't make any
difference. Other than that, I do not want mountain bikers to have any trails at
all. There are plenty of roads and streets for them. All a new set of trails
would do is mess up the rest of the countryside still unspoiled. If single track
trails are attractive to them, then they can get off their bikes and walk them
like everybody else. Hells Bells, where did I ever get the notion that mountain
bikers deserve their own trails. They don't! Instead, they deserve to have their
dumb asses kicked all the way to Hell!


At last, some honesty. This is what I always thought you wanted.


And, I can see why you didn't want to say this earlier ... because, now, you have clearly shown that you are an extremist on the fringe.


There are literally hundreds of resorts everywhere who would love to cater to mountain bikers by building trails for them. I am saying that is OK with me. Frankly, I would not be caught dead at a resort, so I will avoid that mess entirely. I just do not want any more trails built anywhere - period! Mr. Vandeman is as always 100% correct about everything, even if somewhat unrealistic at times.

Mountain bikers are barbarians and have no right to be on any trail used by hikers – unless they want to get off their god damn ****ing bikes and walk like everyone else. When they crash and injure themselves, I rejoice! If and when they manage to kill themselves, I say good riddance to bad rubbish! Death to mountain biking!

“Tread softly! All the earth is holy ground.”
~ Christina Rossetti (Psalm 24),
from "A Later Life: A Double Sonnet of Sonnets"

Mountain bikes have wheels. Wheels are for roads.

Trails are for walking. What’s the matter? Can’t walk?

Ed Dolan the Great
aka
Saint Edward the Great


  #14  
Old May 16th 14, 06:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.soc
EdwardDolan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 539
Default Mountain bikers are a scourge wherever they are found

"Blackblade" wrote in message ...

A short while ago you were representing all hikers. Now it's

just the 'serious' ones. What, precisely, is your definition of 'serious'
? I'm willing to bet it's anyone who happens to agree with you :-).
What a joke.


Edward Dolan wrote:

The only joke here is you and your defense of mountain biking
on trails. Occasional hikers don't count. The only group that counts in this
discussion are serious hikers. If you had the brains you were born with you
would have known that from day one.


Thank you for confirming exactly what I thought you meant all along. As far as you're concerned, you and those nearly exactly like you are the only deserving users of the trails. Sorry, they belong to the public and one tiny minority doesn't get to dictate ... thank goodness.


Serious hikers are NOT a tiny minority. They are the vast majority of hikers.

Your mental attitude is not of the slightest concern to me and you

have, so far, failed to provide me with any data that this view is anything
other than a minority, fanatical sub-set of nutcases.

My mental attitude is that of all serious hikers.


Prove it. Stop pontificating and prove it. There are

millions of hikers, as a report which you posted recently on outdoor recreation
confirmed. Of those, how many are 'serious' and how many agree with you
? I'm willing to bet that you don't know ... so, if you don't know, stop
asserting that you do and admit that it's YOUR OPINION.

Lone individuals and couples hiking various trails many times
a year are serious hikers. Occasional hikers, youth groups, idiots walking their
dogs and once a year family groups don't count.


I'm sure they'll be delighted to hear that their taxes count for nothing and that Ed Dolan will be protecting their interests ....


Anyone hiking a trail for the purpose of connecting with nature is a serious hiker. That includes almost everyone you will see walking a trail. It will not include any mountain bikers who are doing what they are doing for thrills and spills. See what I have had to say in the past on how PURPOSE matters more than anything else on WHO should be permitted on a trail and HOW they should be permitted on a trail (MEANS).

I'm not promoting anything other than free choice. As you

concede, if I wish to 'risk' my own life and limb that is solely my
concern.

Yes, indeed, who cares about your life and limb, but your
defense of mountain biking on trails encourages others to think it is safe, when
it clearly Is not safe. It is why I hold you culpable.


You've provided nothing material to counteract the real risk levels which are, I reiterate, fatailies 0.00123/million miles and injuries 1.54/1,000 exposures. If you think it's higher ... then prove it.


Since those fatality and risk levels are low compared with many daily activities mountainbiking can, quite justifiably, be quantified as relatively safe.


We disagree about the risks. But of course, as you should well know by now, that is not the main reason I am against biking on trails. However, it may be that the risk factor will prove in the end to be the dominating factor.

However, since YOU and your minority of fellow travellers are

completely unwilling to compromise then, no, I don't give a damn about you
anymore. You would happily see me banned from all trails so that you could
enjoy them in splendid isolation whilst requiring me to pay for them through my
taxes.

This is what I mean about extremism begetting extremism.


As a biker on a trail, you are an interloper and a usurper.
The trails were there for the use and enjoyment of hikers long before mountain
bikes were ever invented. You need to get your own trails far removed from
hiking trails. There can be no sharing of trails because it is a conflict of
both means and purpose.


Yawn. You're going in circles Ed.


The only one going around in circles is you.
[...]

I am consistent about what matters and do not get hung up on
details like you do. Half the time, my details are provided for your amusement,
but like all Englishmen you do not take notice of amusement. My first duty here
is to enjoy myself. Nothing will ever stand in the way of that.


Ed, I'm simply here because I find argument amusing ... but you are becoming tiresome because of the paucity of yours.


I have stated my argument many times as succinctly as possible. It is a consistent argument and a perfectly logical argument. Moreover, it is a REASONABLE argument. All I have ever gotten from you are some ridiculous data and the fact that you want to do what you want to do regardless of how it effects others. I have told you how it effects me and Mr. Vandeman and other serious hikers of which there are many hundreds of thousands. You and your ilk should never have been permitted anywhere near hiking trails, but let’s face it, the land and park managers are not only idiots but gutless. **** ’em all – and you too!

Mountain bikers are barbarians and have no right to be on any trail used by hikers – unless they want to get off their god damn ****ing bikes and walk like everyone else. When they crash and injure themselves, I rejoice! If and when they manage to kill themselves, I say good riddance to bad rubbish! Death to mountain biking!

“Tread softly! All the earth is holy ground.”
~ Christina Rossetti (Psalm 24),
from "A Later Life: A Double Sonnet of Sonnets"

Mountain bikes have wheels. Wheels are for roads.

Trails are for walking. What’s the matter? Can’t walk?

Ed Dolan the Great
aka
Saint Edward the Great


  #15  
Old May 20th 14, 03:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.soc
Blackblade[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 214
Default Mountain bikers are a scourge wherever they are found

Serious hikers are NOT a tiny minority. They are the vast
majority of hikers.


So you say ... I beg to differ. Prove it.

My mental attitude is that of all serious hikers.


So you say ... I beg to differ. Prove it.

You've provided nothing material to counteract the real risk

levels which are, I reiterate, fatailies 0.00123/million miles and injuries
1.54/1,000 exposures. If you think it's higher ... then prove it.

Since those fatality and risk levels are low compared with many

daily activities mountainbiking can, quite justifiably, be quantified as
relatively safe.

We disagree about the risks. But of course, as you should well
know by now, that is not the main reason I am against biking on trails. However,
it may be that the risk factor will prove in the end to be the dominating
factor.


Yes, we disagree. But, unlike you, I've provided real data from third party sources and you're provided ... zip, nada, bupkiss beyond your own simple assertion.

However, since YOU and your minority of fellow travellers are

completely unwilling to compromise then, no, I don't give a damn about

you anymore. You would happily see me banned from all trails so that
you could enjoy them in splendid isolation whilst requiring me to pay for them through my taxes.

This is what I mean about extremism begetting

extremism.

As a biker on a trail, you are an interloper and a usurper.


The trails were there for the use and enjoyment of hikers long before

mountain

bikes were ever invented.


And, your point is what ? We've already done to death the fact that trails have been put to many uses over the centuries. The trails belong to people so use can change if people want it to.

Ed, I'm simply here because I find argument amusing ... but you

are becoming tiresome because of the paucity of yours.

I have stated my argument many times as succinctly as
possible. It is a consistent argument and a perfectly logical argument.
Moreover, it is a REASONABLE argument.


No, you've stated your opinion Ed ... and then been unable to back it up with anything.

All I have ever gotten from you are some
ridiculous data and the fact that you want to do what you want to do regardless
of how it effects others.


I've stated my opinions too ... I don't think anyone reading this thread would be unaware of them. However, unlike you, I prefer to test my hypotheses and assertions with real-world data. I'm sure that all the people whose research I've cited and whose work you consider 'ridiculous' would be more than happy to read your research on the issues ... oh, sorry, you don't have any do you ?

I have told you how it effects me and Mr. Vandeman and
other serious hikers of which there are many hundreds of thousands.


Yes, you have, but I only believe you about you and vandeman ... I don't think there are hundreds of thousands of others who hold the same opinion, I've certainly never met anyone with such extreme views as yours, and you're unable or unwilling to provide any data to backup that assertion.

And, given that you're not prepared to compromise one iota, why should I care what you and vandeman think when you're a tiny minority ?

You and your
ilk should never have been permitted anywhere near hiking trails, but let's face
it, the land and park managers are not only idiots but gutless. **** 'em all -
and you too!


Ah, more profanity. I'm sure that makes you feel better ... happy to provide that small recompense for demolishing your arguments.

  #16  
Old May 22nd 14, 04:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.soc
EdwardDolan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 539
Default Mountain bikers are a scourge wherever they are found

"Blackblade" wrote in message ...

Edward Dolan wrote:
Serious hikers are NOT a tiny minority. They are the vast
majority of hikers.

[...]

We disagree about the risks. But of course, as you should well
know by now, that is not the main reason I am against biking on trails. However,
it may be that the risk factor will prove in the end to be the dominating
factor.


Yes, we disagree. But, unlike you, I've provided real data from third party sources and you're provided ... zip, nada, bupkiss beyond your own simple assertion.


Your “real data” stinks. I have provided many reports of actual events in specific locations from various media.
[...]

The trails were there for the use and enjoyment of hikers long before

mountain bikes were ever invented.


And, your point is what ? We've already done to death the fact that trails have been put to many uses over the centuries. The trails belong to people so use can change if people want it to.


It only matters what trails have been used for since the establishment of the National Parks (late 1800’s). Before that it doesn't matter any more than the last 20 years or so doesn’t matter (since the advent of mountain biking). That is the status quo ante.
[...]

All I have ever gotten from you are some
ridiculous data and the fact that you want to do what you want to do regardless
of how it effects others.


I've stated my opinions too ... I don't think anyone reading this thread would be unaware of them. However, unlike you, I prefer to test my hypotheses and assertions with real-world data. I'm sure that all the people whose research I've cited and whose work you consider 'ridiculous' would be more than happy to read your research on the issues ... oh, sorry, you don't have any do you ?


“Your “real data” stinks. I have provided many reports of actual events in specific locations from various media.” – Ed Dolan
[...]

I have told you how it effects me and Mr. Vandeman and
other serious hikers of which there are many hundreds of thousands.


Yes, you have, but I only believe you about you and vandeman ... I don't think there are hundreds of thousands of others who hold the same opinion, I've certainly never met anyone with such extreme views as yours, and you're unable or unwilling to provide any data to backup that assertion.


All serious hikers think exactly like me. We don’t want bicycles on our trails.
[...]

Mountain bikers are barbarians and have no right to be on any trail used by hikers – unless they want to get off their god damn ****ing bikes and walk like everyone else. When they crash and injure themselves, I rejoice! If and when they manage to kill themselves, I say good riddance to bad rubbish! Death to mountain biking!

“Tread softly! All the earth is holy ground.”
~ Christina Rossetti (Psalm 24),
from "A Later Life: A Double Sonnet of Sonnets"

Mountain bikes have wheels. Wheels are for roads.

Trails are for walking. What’s the matter? Can’t walk?

Ed Dolan the Great
aka
Saint Edward the Great


  #17  
Old May 22nd 14, 11:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.soc
Blackblade[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 214
Default Mountain bikers are a scourge wherever they are found

Yes, we disagree. But, unlike you, I've provided real
data from third party sources and you're provided ... zip, nada, bupkiss beyond
your own simple assertion.

Your "real data" stinks. I have provided many reports of
actual events in specific locations from various media.


You haven't provided anything ... you've simply referenced copy from journalists. That's not even trying to be objective and to discern a position ... it's simple reporting.

And, your point is what ? We've already done to death

the fact that trails have been put to many uses over the centuries. The
trails belong to people so use can change if people want it to.

It only matters what trails have been used for since the
establishment of the National Parks (late 1800's). Before that it doesn't matter
any more than the last 20 years or so doesn't matter (since the advent of
mountain biking). That is the status quo ante.


Use has changed over time .. and certainly over the last 20 years. Live with it.

I've stated my opinions too ... I don't think anyone reading

this thread would be unaware of them. However, unlike you, I prefer to
test my hypotheses and assertions with real-world data. I'm sure that all
the people whose research I've cited and whose work you consider 'ridiculous'
would be more than happy to read your research on the issues ... oh, sorry, you
don't have any do you ?

"Your "real data" stinks. I have provided many
reports of actual events in specific locations from various media." - Ed
Dolan


You've provided links to news articles Ed.

All serious hikers think exactly like me.


I very very much doubt it Ed ... they're not all monomaniacal egomaniacs.

  #18  
Old May 24th 14, 05:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.soc
EdwardDolan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 539
Default Mountain bikers are a scourge wherever they are found

"Blackblade" wrote in message ...

Yes, we disagree. But, unlike you, I've provided real

data from third party sources and you're provided ... zip, nada, bupkiss beyond
your own simple assertion.


Edward Dolan wrote:

Your "real data" stinks. I have provided many reports of
actual events in specific locations from various media.


You haven't provided anything ... you've simply referenced copy from journalists. That's not even trying to be objective and to discern a position ... it's simple reporting.


That is good enough for me ... and everyone else too - except you.

And, your point is what ? We've already done to death

the fact that trails have been put to many uses over the centuries. The
trails belong to people so use can change if people want it to.

It only matters what trails have been used for since the
establishment of the National Parks (late 1800's). Before that it doesn't matter
any more than the last 20 years or so doesn't matter (since the advent of
mountain biking). That is the status quo ante.


Use has changed over time .. and certainly over the last 20 years. Live with it.


It only changed in the very recent past. The status quo ante is what must be reacquired.
[...]

All serious hikers think exactly like me.


I very very much doubt it Ed ... they're not all monomaniacal egomaniacs.


I prefer to hike by myself, but when I do occasionally hike with others, they agree with me. Bicycles do not belong on trails any more than motorcycles do.

Mountain bikers are barbarians and have no right to be on any trail used by hikers – unless they want to get off their god damn ****ing bikes and walk like everyone else. When they crash and injure themselves, I rejoice! If and when they manage to kill themselves, I say good riddance to bad rubbish! Death to mountain biking!

“Tread softly! All the earth is holy ground.”
~ Christina Rossetti (Psalm 24),
from "A Later Life: A Double Sonnet of Sonnets"

Mountain bikes have wheels. Wheels are for roads.

Trails are for walking. What’s the matter? Can’t walk?

Ed Dolan the Great
aka
Saint Edward the Great


  #19  
Old May 27th 14, 03:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.soc
Blackblade[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 214
Default Mountain bikers are a scourge wherever they are found

Your "real data" stinks. I have provided many reports of

actual events in specific locations from various media.


You haven't provided anything ... you've simply referenced copy

from journalists.* That's not even trying to be objective and to discern a
position ... it's simple reporting.

That is good enough for me ... and everyone else too - except
you.


So something from a journalist who is simply filing a report, ideally one that will be sufficiently sensational to attract interest, is suddenly more valuable in determining what is occurring overall than that from an unbiased researcher actually trying to do objective research and discover the real position ? I despair of your logic.

Use has changed over time .. and certainly over the last 20

years.* Live with it.

It only changed in the very recent past. The status quo ante
is what must be reacquired.


No Ed, things move forward ... not back.

All serious hikers think exactly like me.


I very very much doubt it Ed ... they're not all monomaniacal

egomaniacs.

I prefer to hike by myself, but when I do occasionally hike
with others, they agree with me. Bicycles do not belong on trails any more than
motorcycles do.


So, I reiterate, you meet next to no-one so how is that supposed to be representative of a population of tens or hundreds of millions worldwide ?

You're fully entitled to your opinion ... but you cannot assume that this is commonly shared.
  #20  
Old May 28th 14, 07:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.soc
EdwardDolan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 539
Default Mountain bikers are a scourge wherever they are found

"Blackblade" wrote in message ...

Edward Dolan wrote:

Your "real data" stinks. I have provided many reports of


actual events in specific locations from various media.


You haven't provided anything ... you've simply referenced copy

from journalists. That's not even trying to be objective and to discern a
position ... it's simple reporting.

That is good enough for me ... and everyone else too - except
you.


So something from a journalist who is simply filing a report, ideally one that will be sufficiently sensational to attract interest, is suddenly more valuable in determining what is occurring overall than that from an unbiased researcher actually trying to do objective research and discover the real position ? I despair of your logic.


Your data is irrelevant because, like all social data, it includes too many unknown variables. My reports are to the point and are numerous enough and widespread enough to indicate a general condition prevailing. Social data is hardly ever scientific. Counting when you do not know what you are counting is for morons.

Use has changed over time .. and certainly over the last 20

years. Live with it.

It only changed in the very recent past. The status quo ante
is what must be reacquired.


No Ed, things move forward ... not back.


Actually, most things just go round and round, never any progress being made.

All serious hikers think exactly like me.


I very very much doubt it Ed ... they're not all monomaniacal

egomaniacs.

I prefer to hike by myself, but when I do occasionally hike
with others, they agree with me. Bicycles do not belong on trails any more than
motorcycles do.


So, I reiterate, you meet next to no-one so how is that supposed to be representative of a population of tens or hundreds of millions worldwide ?


You're fully entitled to your opinion ... but you cannot assume that this is commonly shared.


We all make assumptions about everything all the time. It is what we humans do best. Personal experience is highly limited and is only of value if we can make assumptions about it.

Mountain bikers are barbarians and have no right to be on any trail used by hikers – unless they want to get off their god damn ****ing bikes and walk like everyone else. When they crash and injure themselves, I rejoice! If and when they manage to kill themselves, I say good riddance to bad rubbish! Death to mountain biking!

“Tread softly! All the earth is holy ground.”
~ Christina Rossetti (Psalm 24),
from "A Later Life: A Double Sonnet of Sonnets"

Mountain bikes have wheels. Wheels are for roads.

Trails are for walking. What’s the matter? Can’t walk?

Ed Dolan the Great
aka
Saint Edward the Great


 




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