Groupsets

On 6/6/2020 9:11 AM, Bertrand wrote:
On 6/6/2020 9:22 AM, AMuzi wrote:

We still build the occasional compact 7 and 3x7
expedition touring bikes
for the same reason- 7 chain is much more durable and
field serviceable
which matters if you expect to be beyond civilization
(carrying water,
fuel, food on the bike).

For most riders, a telephone call to uber is sufficient
for the rare
chain problem or tire gash.

Yes, and that's an illustration of different priorities.
For me, "field
serviceable" is important. And the only time I've used
Uber is to get to
or from a foreign airport. I'd hate to admit I needed it
to finish a
bike ride.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Field serviceable is highly overrated. Never had to call
anyone to finish my ride not even when I knocked off my
Di2 RD last winter. You are not the only one with 35
years of cycling history.

Lou


We've prepped and supplied riders on excursions such as
Cairo to Capetown (parts mailed ahead to US Consulates),
Alaska to Tierra del Fuego (four tandem rims on the same
Phil hub, many chains over two years), tandem offroad
camping in Nepal. This is not the same as a 30 mile loop
from home to see the Holsteins. And yes, they are atypical
examples, requirements for which do not apply to 99% of
riders and routes. Most riders do well with current 11/12
equipment and those systems are very well engineered to
their purposes. In extremis, requirements are very
different.


Just out of curiosity - did those expeditions all use
derailleurs? If there were any Rohloff hubs or Pinion
gearboxes, how did those work out?

I would imagine they'd be fine but I can't recall any actual
case of those.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/6/2020 3:42 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 2:40:59 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2020 12:41 PM, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 5:54:54 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 9:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 5:38:21 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 6:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

DT shifters and five speed are fashion -- conspicuous contrarianism.

Really? At what point in time did my good friend, who has ridden her
Trek since the 1980s, transition from "I just love this bike" to "I'm
only doing this to be contrarian"?

I use all my 11 cassette cogs. I could give one up, but why? My little lunch ride today was our standard loop of 16 miles and 1600 feet of climbing, full speed trying to keep up with my buddy. Except for the roll into town (to see the post-riot damage), everything was some degree of up or down. I shifted my way nicely up and down the cassette, enjoying each and every cog.

I'm glad you love those cute little things, but: What did you have
before the 11? Was it a 10? Was there really a time you said "Damn, I
just hate that there are only ten cogs back there! When, oh when, will
they invent an 11?"

I doubt it. You probably told your ten cogs "You are all individuals,
but I love each of you equally!"

Seriously, I _never_ heard a cyclist complain about having the maximum
number of cogs then on the market. But every time the industry did the
N+1 move, there was quiet pride by the new owners who showed off their
N+1 and slight envy by the guys who had only N.

That was GM's 1960s tactic: "Wouldn't you rather have THIS year's model?"


You have all these imagined scenarios. I don't know anyone who went out and bought 11sp simply because it became available. I was riding 10sp until my wife drove my Supersix under a low overhang when it was up on a roof rack. I also had 10sp on my CAAD 9, but that went off to Utah with my son. I know I had some eight speed shifters, and I think I put those on my sons old beater Windsor. My first STI bike was eight speed.

I had 9 speed on my commuter, but I wanted to shift to hydraulic discs, so I went to 11sp. That was probably a mistake, and I should have found some 9speed hydraulic levers. Shimano does make them. So I have some redundant 9sp Tiagra levers sitting in a box downstairs.

I had 7 speed on my old touring bike, which I did upgrade to eight speed STI because the bike was spec'd with bar-ends, which I hate. I gave that bike away. My tandem had seven or eight speed ERGO. I sold that. I have one-speed on my track bike.

Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course, one. I was riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28 on the 11sp. I like that 28 a lot these days. And I get to keep all my close range gears. What's not to like?

Jay, I'm not saying masses of people threw away 10 speed bikes when 11s
came out.

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and wrecked an 8
speed they never complained about, they would buy a 9 speed to replace
it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now perhaps 12.

The important point is this: They were not unhappy with N gears until
N+1 came out. But by golly, when the opportunity arose, they would find
some way to justify N+1.

They just went with the flow. It is easier today to get 11 speed stuff then 7 speed. Don't over analyze this.

But for many, many cyclists the 'analyzing' amounts to "Do I need a new
bike because I have less than 11 cogs? Do I need a new bike because mine
has downtube shifters?" And their answer is "No, I like my bike fine. It
works for me." IOW, they made a rational decision based on the
advantages of what's new vs. the disadvantages of spending for a new bike.

But Jay has said those people are motivated by conspicuous
contrarianism, which is false. You have implied those people are in
danger in traffic, or ... what? When they race in The Hell of the North?
That just doesn't matter to most people.

Fact is, there are countless people who have bikes they loved in 1985,
and they still love those bikes. They should not be mocked or made
nervous about their safety. If their stuff works for them, leave them
alone.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Should be mocked or made nervous about their safety? You draw strange conclusions. I never said or implied that. I only said that their are situations that it is not wise to shift with a DT shifter and it doesn't matter with a brifter. If you don't shift in that situation you are not in danger with DT shifter.

Good. We agree. And that's what everyone does. That benefit of brifters
does exist, but it is negligible in almost all situations.

You implied that people that are using brifters lack the riding skills to ride with only one hand on the handlebar. That is utter nonsense.

It's not true of most people, of course. I'm sorry I can't find the
article with the quote, but we did have a racer saying he felt unsteady
having to remove a hand toward downtube shifters.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/6/2020 12:04 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 6/5/2020 4:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 12:55:32 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 6:33:04 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 12:30:27 AM UTC-7, Dennis Davis wrote:
In article ,
jbeattie wrote:

...

I think that the curmudgeon handbook, chapter six, has a lengthy
discussion of the benefits of DT friction shifters. IIRC,
they a (1) slow and imprecise shifting, (2) missed shifts,
(3) conspicuous contrarianism, (4) longevity like an incurable
skin condition, (5) inconvenient location, and (6) conspicuous
contrarianism. Clearly superior to any STI/Ergo like system.

A double dose of "conspicuous contrarianism" ("3" and "6"). Isn't
that overkill?

Perhaps (6) is better replaced by:

(6) Requires levels of skill not present in modern cyclists.


...I'm planning to put some Simplex Retrofriction downtube levers on
my next bike...
--
Dennis Davis

I think more accurate would be "requires total lack of skills that
modern cyclists have." Anyone that rides downtube shifters or
centerpull brakes in this day and age is either penniless or stupid or
both.

Thanks, Tom. I'm not penniless, I must be stupid.

Then explain how you have a downtube shifter bike? Unless you make a
effort to collect classic bikes you can't even find downtube shifters
anymore. I had a hard enough time getting bar ends for my touring
bike. And I've never even used it and it is sitting in the backyard

I bought one in 1978, still ride it. Some parts are new.

Wow, all my road bikes from the '70s broke or got stolen -- or
both.

Wow indeed! My family had precisely one bike stolen. My kid, when
about 11, was supposed to chain his bike to our carport. Instead he
just looped the chain over the crank.

Some years ago I very nearly lost my ancient bicycle. At the time it
had a sleazy Ofmega freewheel hub, due to my reluctance to respace the
frame. The hub was in the process of self destructing. When I applied
enough torque the rear axle would shift in the dropouts, and the wheel
would bump into the right chainstay. I never took it apart to figure
out what was broken.

But at the time it was the middle of winter, and I was lazy and didn't
deal with it. One day I rode a short distance to a yoga class in the
city center, and locked my bike in a large courtyard outside. When I
came out I unlocked it, just when someone told me I had left a
waterbottle behind.

I could have brought by bike inside, or locked it back up. But, since I
planned to be gone considerably less than a minute I foolishly just
leaned it against the building. When I returned some scruffy looking
dude was beginning to ride away on my bicycle. Naturally I yelled at
him, and took off running. He stood and mashed down on the pedal -- and
promptly dumped my bike in the middle of the icy courtyard, at which
point he jumped up and ran away.

Since the 1970s, I've carried this
https://randalputnam.files.wordpress...13/05/sb-1.jpg
or something like it for just those situations. I have several homemade
versions, and have made them for others.

Actually, it's all I use most of the time I park my bike. I use a cable
lock only when going to larger shopping areas, unfamiliar areas of the
city, etc.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/6/2020 11:51 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 3:22:22 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/6/2020 2:46 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 2:46:29 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2020 3:59 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/5/2020 1:16 PM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 05.06.2020 um 17:54 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course,
one. I was riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28
on the 11sp. I like that 28 a lot these days. And I get
to keep all my close range gears. What's not to like?

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and
wrecked an 8 speed they never complained about, they would
buy a 9 speed to replace it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now
perhaps 12.

Actually, 10 years ago a bike dealer strongly recommended to
my wife to put 3 x 8 rather than 3 x 9 on her quite
expensive bike, due to longevity of the chain.
The low-end gravel bike I bought last week even haS 2 x 8
(with a 450% range form 34 - 34 to 50 - 11).

Rolf

We still build the occasional compact 7 and 3x7 expedition touring bikes
for the same reason- 7 chain is much more durable and field serviceable
which matters if you expect to be beyond civilization (carrying water,
fuel, food on the bike).

For most riders, a telephone call to uber is sufficient for the rare
chain problem or tire gash.

Yes, and that's an illustration of different priorities. For me, "field
serviceable" is important. And the only time I've used Uber is to get to
or from a foreign airport. I'd hate to admit I needed it to finish a
bike ride.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Field serviceable is highly overrated. Never had to call anyone to finish my ride not even when I knocked off my Di2 RD last winter. You are not the only one with 35 years of cycling history.

Lou


We've prepped and supplied riders on excursions such as
Cairo to Capetown (parts mailed ahead to US Consulates),
Alaska to Tierra del Fuego (four tandem rims on the same
Phil hub, many chains over two years), tandem offroad
camping in Nepal. This is not the same as a 30 mile loop
from home to see the Holsteins. And yes, they are atypical
examples, requirements for which do not apply to 99% of
riders and routes. Most riders do well with current 11/12
equipment and those systems are very well engineered to
their purposes. In extremis, requirements are very different.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

That are really exceptional examples and I don't argue that those trips require different and well thought about set ups. But even then when something breaks beyond repair you need a replacement. Sending parts ahead to US Consulates is kind of cheating. First they should't got broken and if you should be able to repair it on the road and carry on. Can't you send a STI shifters to the US consulates?
What I meant is that the chance something breaks in our daily rides is so rare, often you did forget some tools to repair it and most people lack the skills to do it anyway so base your choice on field serviceability is questionable.
Colleague said he had to abort a ride (looking at the Holsteins) last week because the RD cable broke and called his wife. I said why didn't you fixed you RD in a suitable gear setting the limit screws of the RD. He didn't think of that. Riding buddy carried along spare spokes for 10 years and never needed them and beside that he didn't thought about that he probably needed to remove the cassette first.
My philosophy is that best first line of defense is buying quality parts and maintain your bike.

On the other hand: I have fixed things for fellow club riders often
enough that one club president wrote an article about my repair skills.
These were not people with junk bikes; they were typical bike
enthusiasts. I'll do it again tomorrow, for a friend from a different
city. We're getting together for our first face-to-face socializing, and
she's asked me to fix her bike's shifting.

Unlike most people posting here, I think most avid bicyclists are not
particularly good mechanics. Which is fine; everyone has their own set
of skills.

Over the years, I've certainly had to do mid-ride repairs on my bikes or
my family's. I've broken a couple shift cables, so I carry one on the
bikes that travel far from home. (Could I replace them on the road if I
had STI? I'm not sure.) I once had to strip a front brake mid-tour to
lubricate its pivot, and so on.

So I have the skills. I prefer good quality parts, but those that allow
me to use those skills if necessary, instead of calling for a ride home
- or wherever.

BTW, I remember coming across a stranded rider with a disabled bike in
Montana or somewhere. He was heading east on a supported ride; we were
heading west, self-supported. He'd broken one of the very few spokes in
his rear wheel and couldn't get in touch with his support van.

I did have a couple spare spokes to fit my bike, but his required some
very fancy non-standard spoke. I was able to get him going by opening
his rear brake, which he didn't know how to do.

We were only 10 miles or so west of a small town bike shop. But as I
told the guy, I doubted that shop would have the type of spoke he
required. Of course, I never heard how that all worked out.

Perhaps the lesson is similar to disc brake pads: If you're setting out
on a long trip with unusual spokes, it makes sense to carry a spare. And
maybe learn at least a little about fixing things on a bike.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 9:43:53 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2020 3:42 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 2:40:59 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2020 12:41 PM, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 5:54:54 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 9:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 5:38:21 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 6:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

DT shifters and five speed are fashion -- conspicuous contrarianism.

Really? At what point in time did my good friend, who has ridden her
Trek since the 1980s, transition from "I just love this bike" to "I'm
only doing this to be contrarian"?

I use all my 11 cassette cogs. I could give one up, but why? My little lunch ride today was our standard loop of 16 miles and 1600 feet of climbing, full speed trying to keep up with my buddy. Except for the roll into town (to see the post-riot damage), everything was some degree of up or down. I shifted my way nicely up and down the cassette, enjoying each and every cog.

I'm glad you love those cute little things, but: What did you have
before the 11? Was it a 10? Was there really a time you said "Damn, I
just hate that there are only ten cogs back there! When, oh when, will
they invent an 11?"

I doubt it. You probably told your ten cogs "You are all individuals,
but I love each of you equally!"

Seriously, I _never_ heard a cyclist complain about having the maximum
number of cogs then on the market. But every time the industry did the
N+1 move, there was quiet pride by the new owners who showed off their
N+1 and slight envy by the guys who had only N.

That was GM's 1960s tactic: "Wouldn't you rather have THIS year's model?"


You have all these imagined scenarios. I don't know anyone who went out and bought 11sp simply because it became available. I was riding 10sp until my wife drove my Supersix under a low overhang when it was up on a roof rack. I also had 10sp on my CAAD 9, but that went off to Utah with my son. I know I had some eight speed shifters, and I think I put those on my sons old beater Windsor. My first STI bike was eight speed.

I had 9 speed on my commuter, but I wanted to shift to hydraulic discs, so I went to 11sp. That was probably a mistake, and I should have found some 9speed hydraulic levers. Shimano does make them. So I have some redundant 9sp Tiagra levers sitting in a box downstairs.

I had 7 speed on my old touring bike, which I did upgrade to eight speed STI because the bike was spec'd with bar-ends, which I hate. I gave that bike away. My tandem had seven or eight speed ERGO. I sold that. I have one-speed on my track bike.

Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course, one. I was riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28 on the 11sp. I like that 28 a lot these days. And I get to keep all my close range gears. What's not to like?

Jay, I'm not saying masses of people threw away 10 speed bikes when 11s
came out.

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and wrecked an 8
speed they never complained about, they would buy a 9 speed to replace
it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now perhaps 12.

The important point is this: They were not unhappy with N gears until
N+1 came out. But by golly, when the opportunity arose, they would find
some way to justify N+1.

They just went with the flow. It is easier today to get 11 speed stuff then 7 speed. Don't over analyze this.

But for many, many cyclists the 'analyzing' amounts to "Do I need a new
bike because I have less than 11 cogs? Do I need a new bike because mine
has downtube shifters?" And their answer is "No, I like my bike fine. It
works for me." IOW, they made a rational decision based on the
advantages of what's new vs. the disadvantages of spending for a new bike.

But Jay has said those people are motivated by conspicuous
contrarianism, which is false. You have implied those people are in
danger in traffic, or ... what? When they race in The Hell of the North?
That just doesn't matter to most people.

Fact is, there are countless people who have bikes they loved in 1985,
and they still love those bikes. They should not be mocked or made
nervous about their safety. If their stuff works for them, leave them
alone.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Should be mocked or made nervous about their safety? You draw strange conclusions. I never said or implied that. I only said that their are situations that it is not wise to shift with a DT shifter and it doesn't matter with a brifter. If you don't shift in that situation you are not in danger with DT shifter.

Good. We agree. And that's what everyone does. That benefit of brifters
does exist, but it is negligible in almost all situations.

Negligible to you -- not to me. We all place different a value on not having to reach down and shift. I'm tall. I like to climb out of the saddle, and am often being dragged around by other riders. Being able to shift from standing and being able to shift a lot without taking my hands off the bars is very valuable and not negligible to me, particularly gravel riding. IMO, no reasonable person would choose DT shifters for a new bike and certainly not friction shifters. You would have to be crazy or so worried about component failure that convenience and usability become irrelevant. I'd use DT shifters on some commuter beater if that's all I had.

Also, the crushing possibility of component failure is not eliminated by using classic equipment. I've broken a half-dozen classic cranks (although not on tour) as well as pedals, bars, seat posts, axles, chains (5sp!), BBs, freewheels and on and on. I've told this story before, but I woke up a bike shop owner in Astoria on a Sunday morning in 1976 to buy a pedal after breaking one coming up the coast from CA. I bought a 5sp chain from a Coast to Coast store in the middle of the Olympic Penninsula. I bought a replacement freewheel from someone in nowhere southern Illinois. I found a bolt at a marina at Caples Lake on Carson Pass to replace a broken seat clamp bolt. I actually had the DT shifters fall off a Cannondale in the middle of a race and had to single-speed it to the finish (Cannondale used a center stud to mount its DT bosses -- it corroded and failed.) BTW, I didn't get a ride anywhere for any of these failures. Try riding a loaded touring bike with one pedal. My ride ending failures have been when I broke myself.

In all these years, the one thing I have never broken is a STI shifter. My son had a relatively new left shifter fail (leaving him with a five speed, much to my delight), but that's the only one in the family. I've had some sticky shifters and a broken STI cable -- that conveniently broke when I was a block from the Bike Gallery. It took ten minutes out of my ride. Admittedly, my eight speed STI was removed after 10 or more years when I got a replacement frame, so it may have failed in another ten or so years. I used my 9speed for 15 or more years on my commuter bike, and it never failed -- but like I said, I switched to hydro discs and got new levers. So it might have failed in another ten years. Who knows.

Since I'm rambling here, the last near ride ending failure was running a rear tire down to the cord. I had to detour to a bike shop on my way out to the Gorge. If I had looked at the tire before getting on my bike, I could have avoided that. The good part is that the tread wore off evenly all the way around, indicating I had built a nice round wheel.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 11:48:08 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 9:43:53 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2020 3:42 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 2:40:59 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2020 12:41 PM, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 5:54:54 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 9:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 5:38:21 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 6:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

DT shifters and five speed are fashion -- conspicuous contrarianism.

Really? At what point in time did my good friend, who has ridden her
Trek since the 1980s, transition from "I just love this bike" to "I'm
only doing this to be contrarian"?

I use all my 11 cassette cogs. I could give one up, but why? My little lunch ride today was our standard loop of 16 miles and 1600 feet of climbing, full speed trying to keep up with my buddy. Except for the roll into town (to see the post-riot damage), everything was some degree of up or down. I shifted my way nicely up and down the cassette, enjoying each and every cog.

I'm glad you love those cute little things, but: What did you have
before the 11? Was it a 10? Was there really a time you said "Damn, I
just hate that there are only ten cogs back there! When, oh when, will
they invent an 11?"

I doubt it. You probably told your ten cogs "You are all individuals,
but I love each of you equally!"

Seriously, I _never_ heard a cyclist complain about having the maximum
number of cogs then on the market. But every time the industry did the
N+1 move, there was quiet pride by the new owners who showed off their
N+1 and slight envy by the guys who had only N.

That was GM's 1960s tactic: "Wouldn't you rather have THIS year's model?"


You have all these imagined scenarios. I don't know anyone who went out and bought 11sp simply because it became available. I was riding 10sp until my wife drove my Supersix under a low overhang when it was up on a roof rack. I also had 10sp on my CAAD 9, but that went off to Utah with my son. I know I had some eight speed shifters, and I think I put those on my sons old beater Windsor. My first STI bike was eight speed.

I had 9 speed on my commuter, but I wanted to shift to hydraulic discs, so I went to 11sp. That was probably a mistake, and I should have found some 9speed hydraulic levers. Shimano does make them. So I have some redundant 9sp Tiagra levers sitting in a box downstairs.

I had 7 speed on my old touring bike, which I did upgrade to eight speed STI because the bike was spec'd with bar-ends, which I hate. I gave that bike away. My tandem had seven or eight speed ERGO. I sold that. I have one-speed on my track bike.

Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course, one. I was riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28 on the 11sp. I like that 28 a lot these days. And I get to keep all my close range gears. What's not to like?

Jay, I'm not saying masses of people threw away 10 speed bikes when 11s
came out.

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and wrecked an 8
speed they never complained about, they would buy a 9 speed to replace
it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now perhaps 12.

The important point is this: They were not unhappy with N gears until
N+1 came out. But by golly, when the opportunity arose, they would find
some way to justify N+1.

They just went with the flow. It is easier today to get 11 speed stuff then 7 speed. Don't over analyze this.

But for many, many cyclists the 'analyzing' amounts to "Do I need a new
bike because I have less than 11 cogs? Do I need a new bike because mine
has downtube shifters?" And their answer is "No, I like my bike fine.. It
works for me." IOW, they made a rational decision based on the
advantages of what's new vs. the disadvantages of spending for a new bike.

But Jay has said those people are motivated by conspicuous
contrarianism, which is false. You have implied those people are in
danger in traffic, or ... what? When they race in The Hell of the North?
That just doesn't matter to most people.

Fact is, there are countless people who have bikes they loved in 1985,
and they still love those bikes. They should not be mocked or made
nervous about their safety. If their stuff works for them, leave them
alone.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Should be mocked or made nervous about their safety? You draw strange conclusions. I never said or implied that. I only said that their are situations that it is not wise to shift with a DT shifter and it doesn't matter with a brifter. If you don't shift in that situation you are not in danger with DT shifter.

Good. We agree. And that's what everyone does. That benefit of brifters
does exist, but it is negligible in almost all situations.

Negligible to you -- not to me. We all place different a value on not having to reach down and shift. I'm tall. I like to climb out of the saddle, and am often being dragged around by other riders. Being able to shift from standing and being able to shift a lot without taking my hands off the bars is very valuable and not negligible to me, particularly gravel riding. IMO, no reasonable person would choose DT shifters for a new bike and certainly not friction shifters. You would have to be crazy or so worried about component failure that convenience and usability become irrelevant. I'd use DT shifters on some commuter beater if that's all I had.

Also, the crushing possibility of component failure is not eliminated by using classic equipment. I've broken a half-dozen classic cranks (although not on tour) as well as pedals, bars, seat posts, axles, chains (5sp!), BBs, freewheels and on and on. I've told this story before, but I woke up a bike shop owner in Astoria on a Sunday morning in 1976 to buy a pedal after breaking one coming up the coast from CA. I bought a 5sp chain from a Coast to Coast store in the middle of the Olympic Penninsula. I bought a replacement freewheel from someone in nowhere southern Illinois. I found a bolt at a marina at Caples Lake on Carson Pass to replace a broken seat clamp bolt. I actually had the DT shifters fall off a Cannondale in the middle of a race and had to single-speed it to the finish (Cannondale used a center stud to mount its DT bosses -- it corroded and failed.) BTW, I didn't get a ride anywhere for any of these failures. Try riding a loaded touring bike with one pedal. My ride ending failures have been when I broke myself.

In all these years, the one thing I have never broken is a STI shifter. My son had a relatively new left shifter fail (leaving him with a five speed, much to my delight), but that's the only one in the family. I've had some sticky shifters and a broken STI cable -- that conveniently broke when I was a block from the Bike Gallery. It took ten minutes out of my ride. Admittedly, my eight speed STI was removed after 10 or more years when I got a replacement frame, so it may have failed in another ten or so years. I used my 9speed for 15 or more years on my commuter bike, and it never failed -- but like I said, I switched to hydro discs and got new levers. So it might have failed in another ten years. Who knows.

Since I'm rambling here, the last near ride ending failure was running a rear tire down to the cord. I had to detour to a bike shop on my way out to the Gorge. If I had looked at the tire before getting on my bike, I could have avoided that. The good part is that the tread wore off evenly all the way around, indicating I had built a nice round wheel.

-- Jay Beattie.

I too was rather put aback by a broken STI cable. Not only have I never had one I have never even heard of one. And I don't even know how you could get one.

Though the world is large and components such as plain steel cables are around and maybe someone could allow them to rust through or something.

On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 1:32:40 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

I think that 9-speed for road touring is fantastic. Why? Because I can buy two different cassettes and customize them to get the EXACT gearing I want which is fairly close-spaced 7-speed with two larger bail-out gears. It's nice to have small jumps between gears so that I don't spin out when changing a gear, may cadence stays longer in the comfort zone and I still have to bail-out gears for when I'm bucking a strong headwind especially uphill.

I looked at 10+ setups but won't get one of them do to the high expense of their cogsets and chains compared to 9-speed stuff.



What you write makes sense on paper. Build a custom cogset with close spacing and two extra super low gears. But in reality with 10 speed and above I suspect, you can easily get the close spacing to stay in the optimal cadence plus have the right low gears too. 10-12 years ago I built up a new loaded touring bike. I went with 10 speed STI. 11-32 cassette that has perfectly good spacing plus big enough cogs too. Of course I added my own personally made crankset/chainrings to the bike that likely made the whole bike far far superior to anything you could buy off the shelf. 44-33-20 triple crankset using an ancient Shimano DX 110mm crankset with the inner ring at 74mm bcd. BUT I found an Avid tri-adaptor and converted the inner to a 58mm bcd ring able to take 20 tooth inner. Its almost the most perfect touring gearing on the face of the earth.

I've never found 10 speed chains or cassettes to be hard to find or expensive. Today they might even be cheaper and easier to find than the older 9 speed. I think you set yourself back by going with sort of ancient 9 speed on your touring bike. Better to have 10 speed for a touring bike.

On 6/6/2020 1:48 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 9:43:53 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2020 3:42 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 2:40:59 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2020 12:41 PM, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 5:54:54 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 9:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 5:38:21 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 6:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

DT shifters and five speed are fashion -- conspicuous contrarianism.

Really? At what point in time did my good friend, who has ridden her
Trek since the 1980s, transition from "I just love this bike" to "I'm
only doing this to be contrarian"?

I use all my 11 cassette cogs. I could give one up, but why? My little lunch ride today was our standard loop of 16 miles and 1600 feet of climbing, full speed trying to keep up with my buddy. Except for the roll into town (to see the post-riot damage), everything was some degree of up or down. I shifted my way nicely up and down the cassette, enjoying each and every cog.

I'm glad you love those cute little things, but: What did you have
before the 11? Was it a 10? Was there really a time you said "Damn, I
just hate that there are only ten cogs back there! When, oh when, will
they invent an 11?"

I doubt it. You probably told your ten cogs "You are all individuals,
but I love each of you equally!"

Seriously, I _never_ heard a cyclist complain about having the maximum
number of cogs then on the market. But every time the industry did the
N+1 move, there was quiet pride by the new owners who showed off their
N+1 and slight envy by the guys who had only N.

That was GM's 1960s tactic: "Wouldn't you rather have THIS year's model?"


You have all these imagined scenarios. I don't know anyone who went out and bought 11sp simply because it became available. I was riding 10sp until my wife drove my Supersix under a low overhang when it was up on a roof rack. I also had 10sp on my CAAD 9, but that went off to Utah with my son. I know I had some eight speed shifters, and I think I put those on my sons old beater Windsor. My first STI bike was eight speed.

I had 9 speed on my commuter, but I wanted to shift to hydraulic discs, so I went to 11sp. That was probably a mistake, and I should have found some 9speed hydraulic levers. Shimano does make them. So I have some redundant 9sp Tiagra levers sitting in a box downstairs.

I had 7 speed on my old touring bike, which I did upgrade to eight speed STI because the bike was spec'd with bar-ends, which I hate. I gave that bike away. My tandem had seven or eight speed ERGO. I sold that. I have one-speed on my track bike.

Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course, one. I was riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28 on the 11sp. I like that 28 a lot these days. And I get to keep all my close range gears. What's not to like?

Jay, I'm not saying masses of people threw away 10 speed bikes when 11s
came out.

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and wrecked an 8
speed they never complained about, they would buy a 9 speed to replace
it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now perhaps 12.

The important point is this: They were not unhappy with N gears until
N+1 came out. But by golly, when the opportunity arose, they would find
some way to justify N+1.

They just went with the flow. It is easier today to get 11 speed stuff then 7 speed. Don't over analyze this.

But for many, many cyclists the 'analyzing' amounts to "Do I need a new
bike because I have less than 11 cogs? Do I need a new bike because mine
has downtube shifters?" And their answer is "No, I like my bike fine. It
works for me." IOW, they made a rational decision based on the
advantages of what's new vs. the disadvantages of spending for a new bike.

But Jay has said those people are motivated by conspicuous
contrarianism, which is false. You have implied those people are in
danger in traffic, or ... what? When they race in The Hell of the North?
That just doesn't matter to most people.

Fact is, there are countless people who have bikes they loved in 1985,
and they still love those bikes. They should not be mocked or made
nervous about their safety. If their stuff works for them, leave them
alone.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Should be mocked or made nervous about their safety? You draw strange conclusions. I never said or implied that. I only said that their are situations that it is not wise to shift with a DT shifter and it doesn't matter with a brifter. If you don't shift in that situation you are not in danger with DT shifter.

Good. We agree. And that's what everyone does. That benefit of brifters
does exist, but it is negligible in almost all situations.

Negligible to you -- not to me. We all place different a value on not having to reach down and shift. I'm tall. I like to climb out of the saddle, and am often being dragged around by other riders. Being able to shift from standing and being able to shift a lot without taking my hands off the bars is very valuable and not negligible to me, particularly gravel riding. IMO, no reasonable person would choose DT shifters for a new bike and certainly not friction shifters. You would have to be crazy or so worried about component failure that convenience and usability become irrelevant. I'd use DT shifters on some commuter beater if that's all I had.

Also, the crushing possibility of component failure is not eliminated by using classic equipment. I've broken a half-dozen classic cranks (although not on tour) as well as pedals, bars, seat posts, axles, chains (5sp!), BBs, freewheels and on and on. I've told this story before, but I woke up a bike shop owner in Astoria on a Sunday morning in 1976 to buy a pedal after breaking one coming up the coast from CA. I bought a 5sp chain from a Coast to Coast store in the middle of the Olympic Penninsula. I bought a replacement freewheel from someone in nowhere southern Illinois. I found a bolt at a marina at Caples Lake on Carson Pass to replace a broken seat clamp bolt. I actually had the DT shifters fall off a Cannondale in the middle of a race and had to single-speed it to the finish (Cannondale used a center stud to mount its DT bosses -- it corroded and failed.) BTW, I didn't get a ride anywhere for any of these failures. Try riding a loaded touring bike with one pedal. My ride
ending failures have been when I broke myself.

In all these years, the one thing I have never broken is a STI shifter. My son had a relatively new left shifter fail (leaving him with a five speed, much to my delight), but that's the only one in the family. I've had some sticky shifters and a broken STI cable -- that conveniently broke when I was a block from the Bike Gallery. It took ten minutes out of my ride. Admittedly, my eight speed STI was removed after 10 or more years when I got a replacement frame, so it may have failed in another ten or so years. I used my 9speed for 15 or more years on my commuter bike, and it never failed -- but like I said, I switched to hydro discs and got new levers. So it might have failed in another ten years. Who knows.

Since I'm rambling here, the last near ride ending failure was running a rear tire down to the cord. I had to detour to a bike shop on my way out to the Gorge. If I had looked at the tire before getting on my bike, I could have avoided that. The good part is that the tread wore off evenly all the way around, indicating I had built a nice round wheel.

-- Jay Beattie.




You make good points.
And to clarify I wasn't advocating 'classic' for its own
sake. Especially where durability matters, cassette hubs are
it, freewheel axles suck.

My original point was that where your life may depend on
moving that bike, a seven chain can be riveted surely and
swiftly; skinnier ones not so much.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, 6 June 2020 12:04:16 UTC-4, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 6/5/2020 4:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 12:55:32 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 6:33:04 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 12:30:27 AM UTC-7, Dennis Davis wrote:
In article ,
jbeattie wrote:

...

I think that the curmudgeon handbook, chapter six, has a lengthy
discussion of the benefits of DT friction shifters. IIRC,
they a (1) slow and imprecise shifting, (2) missed shifts,
(3) conspicuous contrarianism, (4) longevity like an incurable
skin condition, (5) inconvenient location, and (6) conspicuous
contrarianism. Clearly superior to any STI/Ergo like system.

A double dose of "conspicuous contrarianism" ("3" and "6"). Isn't
that overkill?

Perhaps (6) is better replaced by:

(6) Requires levels of skill not present in modern cyclists.


...I'm planning to put some Simplex Retrofriction downtube levers on
my next bike...
--
Dennis Davis

I think more accurate would be "requires total lack of skills that
modern cyclists have." Anyone that rides downtube shifters or
centerpull brakes in this day and age is either penniless or stupid or
both.

Thanks, Tom. I'm not penniless, I must be stupid.

Then explain how you have a downtube shifter bike? Unless you make a
effort to collect classic bikes you can't even find downtube shifters
anymore. I had a hard enough time getting bar ends for my touring
bike. And I've never even used it and it is sitting in the backyard

I bought one in 1978, still ride it. Some parts are new.

Wow, all my road bikes from the '70s broke or got stolen -- or
both.

Wow indeed! My family had precisely one bike stolen. My kid, when
about 11, was supposed to chain his bike to our carport. Instead he
just looped the chain over the crank.

Some years ago I very nearly lost my ancient bicycle. At the time it
had a sleazy Ofmega freewheel hub, due to my reluctance to respace the
frame. The hub was in the process of self destructing. When I applied
enough torque the rear axle would shift in the dropouts, and the wheel
would bump into the right chainstay. I never took it apart to figure
out what was broken.

But at the time it was the middle of winter, and I was lazy and didn't
deal with it. One day I rode a short distance to a yoga class in the
city center, and locked my bike in a large courtyard outside. When I
came out I unlocked it, just when someone told me I had left a
waterbottle behind.

I could have brought by bike inside, or locked it back up. But, since I
planned to be gone considerably less than a minute I foolishly just
leaned it against the building. When I returned some scruffy looking
dude was beginning to ride away on my bicycle. Naturally I yelled at
him, and took off running. He stood and mashed down on the pedal -- and
promptly dumped my bike in the middle of the icy courtyard, at which
point he jumped up and ran away.

Shortly afterward I spread the rear dropouts, and replaced the wheel
with one built on a Shimano cassette hub.

--

I had a bicycle stolen that I was off of for a whopping THIRTY SECONDS. Leaned the bike against a wall, walked to a recessed door, handed a waiting bank manager a check, turned around to get on the bike and it was gone never to be seen again. Lock it or lose it.

Cheers

On Saturday, 6 June 2020 12:43:53 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2020 3:42 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 2:40:59 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2020 12:41 PM, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 5:54:54 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 9:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 5:38:21 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 6:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

DT shifters and five speed are fashion -- conspicuous contrarianism.

Really? At what point in time did my good friend, who has ridden her
Trek since the 1980s, transition from "I just love this bike" to "I'm
only doing this to be contrarian"?

I use all my 11 cassette cogs. I could give one up, but why? My little lunch ride today was our standard loop of 16 miles and 1600 feet of climbing, full speed trying to keep up with my buddy. Except for the roll into town (to see the post-riot damage), everything was some degree of up or down. I shifted my way nicely up and down the cassette, enjoying each and every cog.

I'm glad you love those cute little things, but: What did you have
before the 11? Was it a 10? Was there really a time you said "Damn, I
just hate that there are only ten cogs back there! When, oh when, will
they invent an 11?"

I doubt it. You probably told your ten cogs "You are all individuals,
but I love each of you equally!"

Seriously, I _never_ heard a cyclist complain about having the maximum
number of cogs then on the market. But every time the industry did the
N+1 move, there was quiet pride by the new owners who showed off their
N+1 and slight envy by the guys who had only N.

That was GM's 1960s tactic: "Wouldn't you rather have THIS year's model?"


You have all these imagined scenarios. I don't know anyone who went out and bought 11sp simply because it became available. I was riding 10sp until my wife drove my Supersix under a low overhang when it was up on a roof rack. I also had 10sp on my CAAD 9, but that went off to Utah with my son. I know I had some eight speed shifters, and I think I put those on my sons old beater Windsor. My first STI bike was eight speed.

I had 9 speed on my commuter, but I wanted to shift to hydraulic discs, so I went to 11sp. That was probably a mistake, and I should have found some 9speed hydraulic levers. Shimano does make them. So I have some redundant 9sp Tiagra levers sitting in a box downstairs.

I had 7 speed on my old touring bike, which I did upgrade to eight speed STI because the bike was spec'd with bar-ends, which I hate. I gave that bike away. My tandem had seven or eight speed ERGO. I sold that. I have one-speed on my track bike.

Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course, one. I was riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28 on the 11sp. I like that 28 a lot these days. And I get to keep all my close range gears. What's not to like?

Jay, I'm not saying masses of people threw away 10 speed bikes when 11s
came out.

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and wrecked an 8
speed they never complained about, they would buy a 9 speed to replace
it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now perhaps 12.

The important point is this: They were not unhappy with N gears until
N+1 came out. But by golly, when the opportunity arose, they would find
some way to justify N+1.

They just went with the flow. It is easier today to get 11 speed stuff then 7 speed. Don't over analyze this.

But for many, many cyclists the 'analyzing' amounts to "Do I need a new
bike because I have less than 11 cogs? Do I need a new bike because mine
has downtube shifters?" And their answer is "No, I like my bike fine. It
works for me." IOW, they made a rational decision based on the
advantages of what's new vs. the disadvantages of spending for a new bike.

But Jay has said those people are motivated by conspicuous
contrarianism, which is false. You have implied those people are in
danger in traffic, or ... what? When they race in The Hell of the North?
That just doesn't matter to most people.

Fact is, there are countless people who have bikes they loved in 1985,
and they still love those bikes. They should not be mocked or made
nervous about their safety. If their stuff works for them, leave them
alone.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Should be mocked or made nervous about their safety? You draw strange conclusions. I never said or implied that. I only said that their are situations that it is not wise to shift with a DT shifter and it doesn't matter with a brifter. If you don't shift in that situation you are not in danger with DT shifter.

Good. We agree. And that's what everyone does. That benefit of brifters
does exist, but it is negligible in almost all situations.

You implied that people that are using brifters lack the riding skills to ride with only one hand on the handlebar. That is utter nonsense.

It's not true of most people, of course. I'm sorry I can't find the
article with the quote, but we did have a racer saying he felt unsteady
having to remove a hand toward downtube shifters.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Brifters or Ergo levers have real advantages over downtube or even barend shifters on a loaded touring bike struggling uphill with gusting cross winds..

Cheers