Ride an SUB not an SUV

"Clark F Morris" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:23:15 GMT, "George Conklin"
wrote:


"Clark F Morris" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:24:46 GMT, "George Conklin"
wrote:


"Doc O'Leary" wrote in message


...
In article ,
"Jack May" wrote:

Does no good George. O'Leary is obviously stone cold crazy. He
cant
understand even the simplest explanations.

Could be. It could also be that your simplicity isn't sufficient to
run
a well-planned transit system. Could be that you're unskilled and
unaware of it.

NYC has a massive transit system. And no one carried groceries on
it,
for
example. No one. And you want to school/work standing up the whole
way,
packed in like a sardine. At best some people tried to read a
newspaper.
Others did nothing but stand there....most of them. Off-hours you
could
get
a seat only.

Given that people have posted here that they in fact have carried
groceries and other items on the subway, I find the statement that no
one carried them to be false.

You don't have 20 years experience on mass transit. The whole goal is
to
buy your food on the way home from a subway stop. You do NOT carry it on
the train.

When I worked in Bloomfield, New Jersey I carried my clothes to and
from the dry cleaner on the bus. I also have carried groceries on the
bus. I wouldn't want to do it peak period, peak direction on the
number 7 subway line in New York.

Or the same train in Bklyn either, in either direction. You could probably
do it on a Saturday or a holiday. But who was really going to do that?
Remember, you shop every day. Or you send the kids out. For ice cream we
went out to Sunday AM and ran home with a pint before it melted. On mass
transit, it would be all gone, one mass of melted goo.

"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
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"George Conklin" wrote in message
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"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
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"George Conklin" wrote in message
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"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
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"Matthew T. Russotto" wrote in
message
t...
In article

,
Doc O'Leary wrote:
In article ,
(Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:

All you seem to be able to do is point around at the
*infrastructure*
built for cars.

Buses use the same infrastructure, yet cars have advantages over
them.

Because the infrastructure is not optimized for busses,

You mean that for NYC infrastructure is optimized for HORSES.

I've never been to NYC, so I can't comment on how their infrastructure
is
optimized.


I guess not. But the average speed of travel in Manhattan is about the
same today as it was in the horse era, minus the 7,000 gallons per day
of
horse urine and who knows how much crap.

You can't put tailpipe emissions in your garden :-). I know that in
Germany, little old ladies keep an eye out for passing horses for the
brown
gold they impart.


Kids pick up cow droppings in India so they can be dried and become the fuel
for the hearth. Ever had coffee cooked on a cow dung fire? Ever slept on a
cow dung floor? I have.

"George Conklin" wrote in message
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"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
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"George Conklin" wrote in message
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"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
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"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
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"Dan" wrote in message
.. .


And
besides, people will always use their cars for shopping even
if
they

Not me. In Germany I always used the basket on my bicycle.

Going shopping every day for something to eat is a total waste
of
time.

It is when your tastebuds have gotten used to the taste of food
that
is
not
fresh.



What is sold as fresh is NOT fresh. IT is shipped from Mexico and
CA
and
many other distant places.

So true. That is why it is important to know who your local farmers
are,
and buy from them.



In most climates, you get fresh produce like that several weeks a year,
just
like in the old days. That is back in the era of bad diets, high death
rates, and food of unknown origin.

For one thing, several weeks a year is better than no weeks a year, even
if
what you say is true. However, in most climates it is possible to have
fresh, in-season vegetables most of the year if you make it attractive to
local farmers to grow them.



They could only be grown indoors in most areas. In the olden days, people
did not have fresh fruit except in season. That included apples and other
fruit which had to be dried or canned. Even fresh meat was hard to come
by.
My wife grew up on a sharecropper farm and they would can meat for the
winter, etc. An organge for Xmas was a treat in most of the world until
they were shipped year round.

I disagree. Brassicas (broccoli, cauliflower, etc.) can be grown all winter
in at least 1/2 the zones in the US and well up into the fall (and again in
the spring) in most of the rest of it. Most root vegetables can be grown
right up until first frost and stored under mulch after that (in areas where
they can't be grown all winter). Winter is the best time of year to
slaughter any type of domestic meat animal. Hunting season is in the fall,
and that is _not_ because game animals are less plentiful then. Oranges
actually _are_ in season in the winter (that is when they typically ripen).
That they have to be shipped is a function of where they grow, not when they
ripen.

-Amy

"George Conklin" wrote in message
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"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
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"George Conklin" wrote in message
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"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
...

"George Conklin" wrote in message
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"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
message
.. .

"Matthew T. Russotto" wrote in
message
t...
In article

,
Doc O'Leary wrote:
In article ,
(Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:

All you seem to be able to do is point around at the
*infrastructure*
built for cars.

Buses use the same infrastructure, yet cars have advantages over
them.

Because the infrastructure is not optimized for busses,

You mean that for NYC infrastructure is optimized for HORSES.

I've never been to NYC, so I can't comment on how their infrastructure
is
optimized.


I guess not. But the average speed of travel in Manhattan is about
the
same today as it was in the horse era, minus the 7,000 gallons per day
of
horse urine and who knows how much crap.

You can't put tailpipe emissions in your garden :-). I know that in
Germany, little old ladies keep an eye out for passing horses for the
brown
gold they impart.


Kids pick up cow droppings in India so they can be dried and become the
fuel
for the hearth. Ever had coffee cooked on a cow dung fire? Ever slept on
a
cow dung floor? I have.

So what? That has nothing to do with the discussion.

"Matthew T. Russotto" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Amy Blankenship wrote:

"Matthew T. Russotto" wrote in message
news:d7SdnSpHJ4AguZXbnZ2dnUVZ_qGjnZ2d@speakeasy. net...

I've been to Denmark. For cycling, it has one overriding feature that
much of the United States lacks: flatness. Not false flatness like
the US plains, but real table-like flatness.

That's *flat* silly. *Many* areas of the US have *way* more flatness than
Denmark. My British husband was commenting on how nice it was to see
actual
hills in Denmark compared to here.

We talking about the same Denmark? North part of Europe, lots of
windmills? Highest natural point 171m (561 feet) above sea level?
It's flat.

Not compared to some parts of the US. The highest point in Florida is 345
feet. The highest point in Louisiana is 535 feet. The highest point in
Delaware is 448 feet.

Only Delaware of those is smaller than Denmark, though not by much. Large
parts of Alabama, Mississippi, and Texas are equally flat. The parts of
Kansas and Missouri I've been to are also pretty flat. I'd say right there
that's more than enough flat parts to justify bikes.

Additionally, I have seen cyclists going *faster* than the speed limit (30
mph) on extreme slopes in Texas. great view from behind, let me tell you.

Presumably on the downslope.

Nope. Up a hill my car was struggling with. It was pretty amazing.

I've seen cyclists go 50mph down a hill
in Philadelphia. But the route to the top of that hill isn't called
"the Wall" for nothing. It's a hard climb. There are hills around
me which I can do 40+mph on, but again, it's a hard climb to get up to
them. They're easier than the one on my path to work; I've climbed
that one a few times, and doing it twice every day is just not practical.

There used to be a hill on my way to school (I went to college in one of the
hillier parts of Mississippi) that just killed me the first couple of months
I did it. But since I had no other means of getting to school I figured it
out eventually.

"George Conklin" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
...

"George Conklin" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
.. .

...
NYC has a massive transit system. And no one carried groceries
on
it,
for
example. No one. And you want to school/work standing up the
whole
way,
packed in like a sardine. At best some people tried to read a
newspaper.
Others did nothing but stand there....most of them. Off-hours
you
could
get
a seat only.

That is foolish. The seats are there. You are saying that
literally
*no
one* sat in them during peak hours?


They are always full. You have obviously never dealt with mass
transit,
just your idle dreams. Sad.

First, if they are always full, clearly it is possible to get a seat,
since
there are, in fact, people sitting in them who did just that.

You are thinking of a bus, where most people can sit. On the subway,
most
people stand a few can sit, if they get on at the end of the line or
just
luck out. But most stand.

Most but not all. This means that some are sitting so clearly it *is*
possible to get a seat.

For a minority. So? You sound like a planner: in my city everyone
will
sit in the subway because if 20% can, then all can, in principle. Ha Ha
Ha.

You sound like an idiot who cannot follow simple logic. I never said it was
possible for all to do that, just that _your_ statement was patently false.

-
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"Matthew T. Russotto" wrote in message
t...
In article ,
Baxter wrote:


"Matthew T. Russotto" wrote in message
et...
In article
,

Prove it. Demonstrate that moving just the people *must* take more
time
than moving the people *and* their cars.

The burden of proof is on you to show a system where it doesn't.
Because in most real life as-they-are-today systems, transit takes
longer.

Plenty of trips in Portland are quicker using transit than by using car -
especially when you factor in finding a parking spot.

That's Portland, where the planners went out of their way to make life
difficult for drivers.

That's bull**** - said only for effect.

Will *every* trip by transit be shorter? No, not any more than every
trip
by car will be shorter.

The truth of those two statements don't mean the modes are
equivalent.

Progress, of a sort. 'Till now you've adamantly refused to acknowledge this
truth.

Most trips are faster by car.

Depends entirely on your catchment area. So your claim is meaningless.

-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


"George Conklin" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
.. .


It is when your tastebuds have gotten used to the taste of food that is
not
fresh.



What is sold as fresh is NOT fresh. IT is shipped from Mexico and CA and
many other distant places.

Actually, you really can get -fresh- produce in Portland. It's grown on the
small farms and greenhouses in the region. Is *everything* fresh? Not
hardly, but a large percentage of it is.

"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
.. .

"George Conklin" wrote in message
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"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
...

"George Conklin" wrote in message
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"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
message
...

"George Conklin" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
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.. .

"George Conklin" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

"Dan" wrote in message
.. .


And
besides, people will always use their cars for shopping even
if
they

Not me. In Germany I always used the basket on my bicycle.

Going shopping every day for something to eat is a total
waste
of
time.

It is when your tastebuds have gotten used to the taste of food
that
is
not
fresh.



What is sold as fresh is NOT fresh. IT is shipped from Mexico and
CA
and
many other distant places.

So true. That is why it is important to know who your local farmers
are,
and buy from them.



In most climates, you get fresh produce like that several weeks a
year,
just
like in the old days. That is back in the era of bad diets, high
death
rates, and food of unknown origin.

For one thing, several weeks a year is better than no weeks a year,
even
if
what you say is true. However, in most climates it is possible to have
fresh, in-season vegetables most of the year if you make it attractive
to
local farmers to grow them.



They could only be grown indoors in most areas. In the olden days,
people
did not have fresh fruit except in season. That included apples and
other
fruit which had to be dried or canned. Even fresh meat was hard to come
by.
My wife grew up on a sharecropper farm and they would can meat for the
winter, etc. An organge for Xmas was a treat in most of the world until
they were shipped year round.

I disagree. Brassicas (broccoli, cauliflower, etc.) can be grown all
winter
in at least 1/2 the zones in the US and well up into the fall (and again
in
the spring) in most of the rest of it. Most root vegetables can be grown
right up until first frost and stored under mulch after that (in areas
where
they can't be grown all winter). Winter is the best time of year to
slaughter any type of domestic meat animal. Hunting season is in the
fall,
and that is _not_ because game animals are less plentiful then. Oranges
actually _are_ in season in the winter (that is when they typically
ripen).
That they have to be shipped is a function of where they grow, not when
they
ripen.

-Amy


Your post is just ignorant of what diets were historically. You need to
look at some facts and stop with the dreaming. Where my parents lived after
retirement, for example, the growing season was so short you could not even
grow tomatoes...they would freeze out. And so forth. When you get 120" of
snow a year, you don't do much growing, except grass. And you don't
slaughter animals and not can the meat or smoke it, because it will spoil.

"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
. ..

"George Conklin" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
...

"George Conklin" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
message
.. .

...
NYC has a massive transit system. And no one carried
groceries
on
it,
for
example. No one. And you want to school/work standing up the
whole
way,
packed in like a sardine. At best some people tried to read a
newspaper.
Others did nothing but stand there....most of them. Off-hours
you
could
get
a seat only.

That is foolish. The seats are there. You are saying that
literally
*no
one* sat in them during peak hours?


They are always full. You have obviously never dealt with mass
transit,
just your idle dreams. Sad.

First, if they are always full, clearly it is possible to get a
seat,
since
there are, in fact, people sitting in them who did just that.

You are thinking of a bus, where most people can sit. On the
subway,
most
people stand a few can sit, if they get on at the end of the line or
just
luck out. But most stand.

Most but not all. This means that some are sitting so clearly it *is*
possible to get a seat.

For a minority. So? You sound like a planner: in my city everyone
will
sit in the subway because if 20% can, then all can, in principle. Ha Ha
Ha.

You sound like an idiot who cannot follow simple logic. I never said it
was
possible for all to do that, just that _your_ statement was patently
false.


Your statement is simply stupid. By your so-called logic, if one person
can sit down in a train, then all problems are solved. Big joke.