Should Cyclists Pack Guns?

In article .com, wrote:

Again, I don't have the problems you have, Maybe there's something
about your behavior that you could change?

I could ride on sidewalks. Perhaps that is what you do? Just avoid
interaction. Of course that's very slow and has it's own dangers.

I could stop riding, or ride a whole lot less so I encounter fewer one
percenters. Is that what you do Frank? just ride a hand full of miles a
year?

Or maybe I can take a submissive role and just let the motorist do what
ever he wants and turn my safety over to them? Just move over to the
side when one comes near? Is that what you do Frank? Just get off the
road each time one comes near?

I could just back down to whomever is aggressive towards me. Be
submissive, probably won't get far like that and if past experience
shows anything they'll just take more and more. Is that what you do,
Frank? Appease the aggressive motorists?

So long as I use a bicycle as vehicle and not a toy, there will people
who are angered just because I am there. There is nothing I can do
about them. Equally I am not going to become submissive, because that
only encourages and rewards the poor behavior. And I sure the hell am
not going to give up riding. Nor am I going to ride so slow that I
won't be passing motor vehicles fair and square either.

On 26 Apr 2007 14:14:18 -0700, wrote:

On Apr 26, 12:18 pm, (Brent P)
wrote:
In article .com, wrote:
It's not a question of paranoia. It's simply better to have a gun and
not need it than to need a gun and not have it.

Well, maybe not. IIRC, guns kept in the home for "protection" are
something like 40 times more likely to be used for killing a family
member than for defending against an intruder. That makes it not so
simple.

If you believe the department of made up statistics and odds.

Kellermann, A. et. al. "Protection or Peril? An Analysis of Firearm
Related Deaths in the Home." The New England Journal of Medicine, vol.
314, no. 24, June 1986, pp. 1557-60.) A gun kept in the home is 43
times more likely to kill a member of the household, or friend, than
an intruder.

Utter bull****. Often cited by anti-gunners, totally
meaningless fake statistics, thoroughly debunked and discredited.

"all the gunshot deaths that occurred in King County, Washington
(population 1,270,000), from 1978 through 1983" - a tiny little
micro-cosm, unrepresentative of anything. The classic case of three
bling men feeling the parts of an elephant and having no clue what it
is. It takes NO ACCOUNT of the differences in society, culture,
economics, etc etc in that small area vs the rest of the country.

"A total of 743 firearm-related deaths occurred during this six-year
period," - that's 123 / year, out of 30,000 / year in the country as a
whole.

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel013101.shtml

"The Fallacy of '43 to 1'
The all-time favorite statistic of the gun-prohibition lobby.

By Dave Kopel, of the Independence Institute
January 31, 2001 11:10 a.m.

Perhaps the most enduring factoid of the gun prohibition movement is
that a person with a gun in the home is 43 times as likely to shoot
someone in the family as to shoot a criminal. This "43 times" figure
is the all-time favorite factoid of the gun-prohibition lobby. It's
not really true, but it does tell us a lot about the gun-prohibition
mindset"

"Notably, Japan, which prohibits handguns and rifles entirely, and
regulates long guns very severely, has a suicide rate of more than
twice the U.S. level."

Further, it counts only DEAD criminals as 'self defenseive use of a
gun'. Those merely wounded ? Not counted. Those scared away ? Not
counted. Non-firing dfenseive display ? Not counted. Only if you no
only SHOT the bad guy, but KILLED him, do they count it as a
'defensive use of a gun'. IOW - utter bull****.

http://www.guncite.com/gun-control-k...ility%3A&ty2=w

aka http://tinyurl.com/y2mcd2

"Additional analysis of Kellermann's ICPSR dataset shows that just
over 4½ percent of all homicides, in the three counties Kellermann
chose to study, involved victims being killed with a gun kept in their
own home (see derivation). This supports the conclusion that people
murdered with a gun kept in their own home are a small minority of all
homicides, precisely the opposite of what an uncritical reader of
Kellermann's study would likely conclude."


I don't know if it's precisely accurate, but It's not made up. What
have you got that says otherwise?

Read the above.


I'd hope that, after all these millions of years, we could invent ways
of dealing with cowardly bullies other than threatening to kill them.
It seems a bit crude to me.

When they are threatening to kill you or seriously injure you
or others ( which is the only time shooting them is justified ), you
deal with them as needed. If they happen to be younger, stronger,
more numerous, armed, etc, that does not obligate you to give in to
them, nor to die.


Again, I don't have the problems you have, Maybe there's something
about your behavior that you could change?

- Frank Krygowski

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Brent P wrote:

So long as I use a bicycle as vehicle and not a toy, there will people
who are angered just because I am there. There is nothing I can do
about them. Equally I am not going to become submissive, because that
only encourages and rewards the poor behavior. And I sure the hell am
not going to give up riding. Nor am I going to ride so slow that I
won't be passing motor vehicles fair and square either.

I believe a lot of the problems you encounter has to do with where you
ride. Since you're in (or near) a major metropolitan area, you're bound
to encounter more problems than I would given that I ride in a rather
small town where lots of people ride probably due to population and
traffic volume alone.

I have had drivers shout at me and brush-pass me, but I haven't had
anything thrown at me as of yet. And I certainly am not submissive (e.
g., if I hear a car horn behind me while I'm riding in the right tire
track, I immediately take the lane.).

On Apr 26, 6:22 pm, (Brent P)
wrote:
In article .com, wrote:
Again, I don't have the problems you have, Maybe there's something
about your behavior that you could change?

I could ride on sidewalks. Perhaps that is what you do?

Nope. I ride roads.

I could stop riding, or ride a whole lot less so I encounter fewer one
percenters. Is that what you do Frank? just ride a hand full of miles a
year?

Nope. My typical year is 2000 to 2500 miles, admittedly decreasing
somewhat as I age. I hit 5000 in 2003. Not as many as some, of
course, but fairly respectable, I think, for my age.

Or maybe I can take a submissive role and just let the motorist do what
ever he wants and turn my safety over to them? Just move over to the
side when one comes near? Is that what you do Frank?

Nope. I take the lane anytime I judge it's too narrow to share.

I could just back down to whomever is aggressive towards me. Be
submissive, probably won't get far like that and if past experience
shows anything they'll just take more and more. Is that what you do,
Frank?

Nope. In fact, I've given quick lectures to quite a few motorists
over the years - and they weren't friendly lectures. Admittedly, I
doubt most had much lasting educational effect, but trust me, I've got
no reputation for submissiveness.

So long as I use a bicycle as vehicle and not a toy, there will people
who are angered just because I am there.

Oh, I don't doubt that. But I am curious what it is that triggers the
near-attacks you claim to have.

I know that the reaction I use for verbally abusive motorists is
usually something like just slowly shaking my head. The body language
conveys "I can't believe you're that dumb." The reaction I use when
I'm taking a lane and someone blows a horn is either the same, or to
sit up, look back, and give a one-hand, palm up expression of "What??
What do you want me to do?? I'm riding where I'm supposed to!" With
both of those, I'm trying to maintain an image of superiority. It
seems to work.

I can see that someone who instead waved single fingers, yelled
curses, etc. would get a different reaction. I'm not saying that's
what you do, but I wonder what the difference is.

- Frank Krygowski

In article , Arif Khokar wrote:

I believe a lot of the problems you encounter has to do with where you
ride. Since you're in (or near) a major metropolitan area, you're bound
to encounter more problems than I would given that I ride in a rather
small town where lots of people ride probably due to population and
traffic volume alone.

Of course. I should really count how many drivers I encounter in a
single ride. I am sure it can be over a 100 for a 20 mile round trip.
That's just a meger 5 per mile and I have to deal with more than that
at most stop lights and the stop lights are often only a half mile
apart... It's pretty easy for me to encounter a lot of one percenters.

I have had drivers shout at me and brush-pass me, but I haven't had
anything thrown at me as of yet. And I certainly am not submissive (e.
g., if I hear a car horn behind me while I'm riding in the right tire
track, I immediately take the lane.).

Same here. If they honk, they just told me they are incompetent and
that I need to have more space, not less.

wrote:

I can see that someone who instead waved single fingers, yelled
curses, etc. would get a different reaction. I'm not saying that's
what you do, but I wonder what the difference is.

- Frank Krygowski



Now that you mention that.....I am one of those motorists who stopped
for a conversation after passing a couple of bicycles riding two
abreast. I saw them, I saw no-one was coming in the oncoming lane, so I
passed them wide with the tyres hitting the cats-eye's on the road. We
are 'keep left' and it was the left tyres on the centreline so there was
****loads of room.

I look in the mirror and there's one of the Tour de France wannabes
giving me the finger.....so I stopped and got out of the car. They
stopped, had a quick chat, then carried on towards me. I asked what the
problem was and Mr. Finger started yelling (I always find it amusing
when someone loses the plot) that I should have been in the other lane
when I passed and he was sick of being passed closely by cars.
I pointed out that I was in the other lane with my left tyres on the
centreline, was nowhere near him and maybe they could drop to single
file when they heard a car coming, for safety sake if he's that worried
about it.....Well, that didn't go down too well with 'I have the right
blah, blah, blah......' and puffed up chest.

So I went with the 'whatever' and got back in the car commenting that
maybe he should just tone down the fingers, as some may take offence.

Two days later I saw the same guy but this time I was on my motorbike,
so I bombed him as close as possible at speed and put him in the ditch!

Iv'e seen him a couple of times since, both in the ute and on the bike
and he hasn't raised a finger......

Moral of the story....you might get away with it on the day, but people
remember and revenge is sweet.

But note, this is not usual policy for me as I ride a bicycle as well!
Judge people by their actions.

In article .com, wrote:
On Apr 26, 6:22 pm, (Brent P)
wrote:

I could just back down to whomever is aggressive towards me. Be
submissive, probably won't get far like that and if past experience
shows anything they'll just take more and more. Is that what you do,
Frank?

Nope. In fact, I've given quick lectures to quite a few motorists
over the years - and they weren't friendly lectures. Admittedly, I
doubt most had much lasting educational effect, but trust me, I've got
no reputation for submissiveness.

So have I. Just as recently as a couple weeks ago when some woman
sucking on slurpy nearly hit me... so I gave her a talking to when I
caught up with her a mile and half later.

So long as I use a bicycle as vehicle and not a toy, there will people
who are angered just because I am there.

Oh, I don't doubt that. But I am curious what it is that triggers the
near-attacks you claim to have.

Some me being on the road, others me not being submissive. those are
the two causes.

I know that the reaction I use for verbally abusive motorists is
usually something like just slowly shaking my head. The body language
conveys "I can't believe you're that dumb."

And that is exactly the sort of thing that set off the driver of the
black audi from brush passing and going on to stopping and then trying
to hurt me with car.

The reaction I use when
I'm taking a lane and someone blows a horn is either the same, or to
sit up, look back, and give a one-hand, palm up expression of "What??
What do you want me to do?? I'm riding where I'm supposed to!" With
both of those, I'm trying to maintain an image of superiority. It
seems to work.

That sort of thing would cause some drivers around here to flip out.
When they've honked, they are usually already angry. How do I know
this? Because I've done similiar things. I used to point down at the
road to the lane location I was in to state I was where I belonged.

I can see that someone who instead waved single fingers, yelled
curses, etc. would get a different reaction. I'm not saying that's
what you do, but I wonder what the difference is.

Besides what you do I will yell things like 'green light' or
'accelerate' when I am behind some sloth that isn't clearing an
intersection in a timely manner. (I don't like spending multiple red
light cycles waiting any more riding a bicycle than I do driving a
car.) That's gotten a finger or something yelled back. But they
usually don't do anything unless I move into the left lane to pass
them, and with that it doesn't matter if I said anything or not. I
found silently just moving to pass them is about the same.

If you do all the things you just said you do, you should have a run in
like those I described at a rate of 1 per year. Other confrontations of
a much lesser nature, usually just verbal or a middle finger every 2nd
to 3rd day.

Increased rates in march,april,may, late october,and novemember. Decreased
rates in august, september, and early october. I've never had a problem in
dec,jan,feb. But I don't ride so much in those months.

My guess is that drivers aren't used to bicyclists in the spring, as
more and more are on the roads the drivers get more hostile until they
'break in' around june. Then they get used to it and that lasts until
mid october. Then it's more like 'why the hell are you still out
here'... in the winter they probably take pity... I dunno. Then early
march is usually ok, but it quickly gets worse.

writes:

Sorry, but in my experience, and going by the data, the desire to
carry a gun is usually based on confusing life with movies. Real life
isn't much like an action flick.

Then don't carry a gun. Simple, no? And where did you get this idea
from anyway? Richard Donner?

In real life, the guy with the gun isn't a tough athlete who can whip
out his piece and blow away the bad guys driving toward him at high
speed. The guy with the gun is much more often a clumsy drunk who
gets aggressive toward his friends and family.

I would love to see a citation for this. I think you have a somewhat
warped view of people with guns. I certainly don't know anyone who
would seriously entertain the idea of shooting from a moving vehicle
of any kind.

--
This post uses 100% post consumer electrons and 100% virgin photons.

An ideal world is left as an excercise to the reader.
--- Paul Graham, On Lisp 8.1

At 2.6 miles per minute, you don't really have time to get bored.
--- Pete Roehling on rec.motorcycles

I bump into a lot of veteran riders in my travels.
--- David Hough: Proficient Motorcycling

(Brent P) writes:

Did I say anything about a gun being used to settle trivial disputes? No.
If drivers had a reasonable expectation that a bicyclist was armed, they
would not behave in the manner that they do. The trivial disputes would
not occur in the first place. The drivers who do this seem to have a
common thread that because the bicyclist is 'weaker' they have command of
the road and are willing to use the size and power of their motor vehicle
to enforce it or merely to entertain themselves at someone else's
expense. Personally I wouldn't even have to carry a gun, drivers would
just need to know the possibility deadly force as self defense was
significant enough. Right now in the state I live it is aproximately
zero. And I wager 99+% of the exceptions, what makes it non-zero, being
uniformed cops riding bicycles. Make this a mere 5-10% and I think there
would be an improvement in behavior from the bullies behind the wheel.

It's not about using the gun or even having it, but the thought it might
be there.

I live in a "shall issue" state. Drivers, especially those in really
expensive cars, give cyclists a wide berth. The traffic regulations
require them to do so as well. Of course there is still the
occasional asshole.

I know that there are states like MA and NJ that seem to think that
self defense is a crime. And that really sucks (I believe all gun
control laws to be unconstitutional anyway, but it takes the SCOTUS to
make that stick). I can't say you should break the law. But some
snail mail to your reps about this issue would certainly be in order.
Hell, get them on the phone!

I also have the opinion that two wheeled vehicles should be allowed to
filter to the front at intersections with traffic lights and stop
signs. It is so stupid to require such a small, narrow vehicle to
take up all the space of a seven passenger SUV.

Taiwain has a rather nice system in place. It's biggest weakness
though is that the scooter lanes are on the right side so a right
turning vehicle has to cut across the scooter lane. But on the plus
side, and this is a big plus, they have boxes at the intersections
that reserve space for two wheelers AHEAD of the four or more wheeled
traffic.

--
This post uses 100% post consumer electrons and 100% virgin photons.

An ideal world is left as an excercise to the reader.
--- Paul Graham, On Lisp 8.1

At 2.6 miles per minute, you don't really have time to get bored.
--- Pete Roehling on rec.motorcycles

I bump into a lot of veteran riders in my travels.
--- David Hough: Proficient Motorcycling

"nash" writes:

I would just add that some countries the police do not even where guns and
their populations are all the less violent.
Proceed as per usual.

There is virtually no crime in Vermont or Alaska. Neither state
requires a permit for citizens to carry concealed firearms.

--
This post uses 100% post consumer electrons and 100% virgin photons.

An ideal world is left as an excercise to the reader.
--- Paul Graham, On Lisp 8.1

At 2.6 miles per minute, you don't really have time to get bored.
--- Pete Roehling on rec.motorcycles

I bump into a lot of veteran riders in my travels.
--- David Hough: Proficient Motorcycling