700/23 vs 700/25 tires ?

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
And another guy - you - doesn't offer numbers except pulled out of the
air, talks abour racing from a position of ignorance, and doesn't
understand statistics*. And he yet calls for his opposistion to be
more informative and more qualititative.

SMS wrote:
?מה ×*שת×*×” הלילה ×”×–×” מכל הלילות

why would this night be unlike any other?
Did you mean 5 Mar here or 6 Mar in Australia?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mar 6, 8:48*am, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article
,



*Bret wrote:
On Mar 5, 7:31*pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article
,

*Bret wrote:
On Mar 4, 5:54*pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article

om,

*Bret wrote:
On Mar 3, 5:27*pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article

s.co m,

*Bret wrote:
If you have the physical ability

Bingo. *The key to racing success. *That and tactics.

I believe that there are key moments where the bike can make
a difference. Frank dodged that part of my post.

"Believe" being the operative word. *As Ben has pointed out
very well, it can't be proven.

Another example, in a mountain road race I once summited Wolf
Creek pass, an eight mile climb, well down on the race
leaders, but only 20 seconds down on a strong chase group
that eventually rolled up everyone in front of them. It
wouldn't have taken much of a difference for me to have been
at the front of that race.

It often seems like the guys who beat us do so by that 1% gap
which we *ought* to be able to overcome with a lighter bike, or
a little more training, etc. *It's often a self-delusion. *The
guys who beat us ride just hard enough to beat us- there being
no reason to ride harder than that- but might have 15% capacity
left untapped while we are at 100%.

This is not true in a photo finish situation. Both riders will be
at 100% unless one has misjudge the finish.

Which are rare except in professional cycling, and even then the
winning rider may be at 101% of his competitor's capacity and have
10% of his own left in reserve. *Erik Zabel could outsprint me with
one foot unclipped and keeping 50% of his reserve in a photo
finish.

I don't see any logic to what you are saying here. Nobody
intentionally leaves a race finish that close. Ask Beppe.

Unless someone is serving their ego, there's no reason to expend any
more energy than necessary. *I've been in and seen plenty of races where
the winner basically cruises home while everybody else is killing
themselves. *Winning a crit by 30 seconds is not "more win" than winning
it by 1 second.

Stage racing where the GC is determined by time changes the calculus on
that, of course. *But people racing for stage wins and people racing for
GC have different strategies.

You seem to have lost track of what we were talking about. A 1 second
win is not very close in the context of this discussion.

Bret

On Mar 6, 9:36*am, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article
,

*Bret wrote:
On Mar 5, 7:18*pm, Tim McNamara wrote:

Chance *is* 50/50 when there are only two possible outcomes.

I won 50% of my races in 2005. The other guy was just lucky as I was
clearly stronger.

http://www.cyclesveloce.com/results_summary05.asp

Very impressive, that was a very good year for you. *You were very
clearly the strongest racer in your category by a whole lot. *I think in
Merckx's best year he won 33% of the races he started, IIRC.

What happened in the races you didn't win? *In your case, that might be
a much more interesting question.

The results are misleading. The best cross racer in my age group was
racing down in the 35+ that year. The 2nd best was out with an
extended illness. Both of those guys have won nationals. The sick guy
would have easily beaten me in the MTB races too because I don't
descend well.

The closest race was at Stazio. I had to bridge to an attacking rider
with 1K to go, then I decided to start the sprint early before we got
swamped. I was nipped at the line (someone else) by less that 1" but
fortunately for me, he got DQ'd for fouling someone earlier in the
race.

In the Wente RR I was unfamiliar with most of the NorCal riders. I did
recognize Larry Nolan but when I tried to steal his wheel as we
approached the finish, the current occupant punched me. I decided that
the guy looked (and behaved) like a sprinter and would probably do
just as well. But he lost Nolan's wheel just before the sprint and
then when the long uphill sprint did start, he didn't even budge. I
was boxed in and when I finally got out I was outside the top 20. I
did manage to get up to 5th by the line.

One of the 2nds at Mead was a two man break with a young (mid-30's)
Cat 1 who only kept me around until the last lap to get what little
help he could from me.

The 4th place in a Boulder cyclocross involved two crashes, a flat
tire and a trip to urgent care.

The 8th at Boulder-Roubaix involved a flat tire.

Other poor finishes in cross races involved asthma issues or simply
not dialing in the course.

Bret

On Mar 6, 10:34*am, Bret wrote:
On Mar 6, 8:02*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:





On Mar 6, 6:37*am, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote...

... a reply that is much more logical and polite than he has been
writing. *Thank you.

On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 21:19:52 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski

wrote:
Then John, give aserious answer: *Did you not use drilled chainrings?
Why not?

I didn't. Beyond cost and the lack of ability to drill rings myself,
I thought they would catch dirt *be more fragile. *Not good.

Did you use Shimano AX brakes? *Why not?

I didn't trust their braking but did like the levers -- the lack a
cable looked good for comfort and possibly aerodynamics (though that's
a very tricky thing to understand). *As soon as "aero" levers were
easily available and I needed a new pair, I got them.

Did you use an aero water bottle hanging
from the front of your stem? *Why not -

No.

Cost. *Weight on the bars. *Need for standard bottle shapes.

could you not use coat hangers and pliers too make up a bottle mount?

Beyond issues above, no I could not. *Bottles have to be very secure
on the bike and there is no way that would hold them securely enough.

Or do you decide which 1% improvements are
important just by what's fashionable?

If I can get good info and the costs are reasonable, I choose it. *If
a lot of people *who race with success are doing it, the's
information. *You might think that's "fashion" but in the absense of
harder data, it's also information.

I agree, that is information. *But I disagree on whether it's
information on much beyond fashion - at least, in many cases.

Over the years we've seen fashions change for racers. *For *many, many
years Campy rear derailleurs were firmly, strongly in fashion, when I
couldn't afford them. *I was using a cheap Sun Tour rear changer. *And
I recall watching guys on the expensive bikes grinding their way
through shifts, missing some on the way, when my Sun Tour crisply did
exactly what I told it to. *The difference in shifting was night and
day.

If you had gone by your standards, you'd conclude that Campy gave an
advantage over cheap Sun Tour. *You'd have been wrong.

And the reason you'd have been wrong is, partly, what I've been saying
all along. *The few guys racing on Sun Tour had a shifting advantage.
But that shifting advantage was negligible in the final outcome.
Things like power, endurance, tactics, road roughness, looking at
their watch at the wrong time, and other more important or more random
events overpowered the Sun Tour's ability to shift more quickly and
reliably.

. . .

OK, guys, we're throwing the bikes in the car and going on vacation.
Carry on without me.

- Frank Krygowski

This is a misrepresentation of what happened at the time. Campy lost a
lot of market share in the 80's due to poor shifting performance. Lots
of people switched to Shimano D-A or Sun Tour Superbe once the overall
group quality became competitive.

Maybe. But probably not. Campagnolo lost out overall because they
did not have a mountain group when mountain bikes became popular in
the 1980s. They also did not have the ability (factories) to produce
enough parts to fill all of the bikes being made. Shimano had a broad
range of bicycle groups, big factories, parts to fit on every type of
bike. Once they got in the door on every bike under the sun, it was
easy to take away the road racing segment too. 90% of a company's
bikes (child to adult) are supplied with Shimano and 10% with Campy.
Easy for Shimano to start filling up that other 10%.

You honestly think the factory part buyers gave a rats arse about
shifting quality when they were talking to the corporate parts sellers
to supply the million bikes they were going to produce the next year?
Yeah right. They bought in bulk with discounts from a huge factory
that could guarantee supply of bulk parts to fit on those millions of
bikes. And if that company could supply road racing parts in additon
to mountain bike parts and cheap kid bike parts, so much the better.
Less contracts to work out.



I used both in the mid-80's. Sun
Tour failed to keep up with Shimano's SIS indexing system (and STI
later) and that's when Shimano began to dominate. Campy was able to
compete again on performance when the Sun Tour *patents expired and
they executed well with their Ergo levers. Today I use SRAM because I
think they have the best performance.

Bret- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Mar 6, 12:20*pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 6, 10:34*am, Bret wrote:



On Mar 6, 8:02*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Mar 6, 6:37*am, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote...

... a reply that is much more logical and polite than he has been
writing. *Thank you.

On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 21:19:52 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski

wrote:
Then John, give aserious answer: *Did you not use drilled chainrings?
Why not?

I didn't. Beyond cost and the lack of ability to drill rings myself,
I thought they would catch dirt *be more fragile. *Not good.

Did you use Shimano AX brakes? *Why not?

I didn't trust their braking but did like the levers -- the lack a
cable looked good for comfort and possibly aerodynamics (though that's
a very tricky thing to understand). *As soon as "aero" levers were
easily available and I needed a new pair, I got them.

Did you use an aero water bottle hanging
from the front of your stem? *Why not -

No.

Cost. *Weight on the bars. *Need for standard bottle shapes.

could you not use coat hangers and pliers too make up a bottle mount?

Beyond issues above, no I could not. *Bottles have to be very secure
on the bike and there is no way that would hold them securely enough.

Or do you decide which 1% improvements are
important just by what's fashionable?

If I can get good info and the costs are reasonable, I choose it. *If
a lot of people *who race with success are doing it, the's
information. *You might think that's "fashion" but in the absense of
harder data, it's also information.

I agree, that is information. *But I disagree on whether it's
information on much beyond fashion - at least, in many cases.

Over the years we've seen fashions change for racers. *For *many, many
years Campy rear derailleurs were firmly, strongly in fashion, when I
couldn't afford them. *I was using a cheap Sun Tour rear changer. *And
I recall watching guys on the expensive bikes grinding their way
through shifts, missing some on the way, when my Sun Tour crisply did
exactly what I told it to. *The difference in shifting was night and
day.

If you had gone by your standards, you'd conclude that Campy gave an
advantage over cheap Sun Tour. *You'd have been wrong.

And the reason you'd have been wrong is, partly, what I've been saying
all along. *The few guys racing on Sun Tour had a shifting advantage.
But that shifting advantage was negligible in the final outcome.
Things like power, endurance, tactics, road roughness, looking at
their watch at the wrong time, and other more important or more random
events overpowered the Sun Tour's ability to shift more quickly and
reliably.

. . .

OK, guys, we're throwing the bikes in the car and going on vacation.
Carry on without me.

- Frank Krygowski

This is a misrepresentation of what happened at the time. Campy lost a
lot of market share in the 80's due to poor shifting performance. Lots
of people switched to Shimano D-A or Sun Tour Superbe once the overall
group quality became competitive.

Maybe. *But probably not. *Campagnolo lost out overall because they
did not have a mountain group when mountain bikes became popular in
the 1980s. *They also did not have the ability (factories) to produce
enough parts to fill all of the bikes being made. *Shimano had a broad
range of bicycle groups, big factories, parts to fit on every type of
bike. *Once they got in the door on every bike under the sun, it was
easy to take away the road racing segment too. *90% of a company's
bikes (child to adult) are supplied with Shimano and 10% with Campy.
Easy for Shimano to start filling up that other 10%.

You honestly think the factory part buyers gave a rats arse about
shifting quality when they were talking to the corporate parts sellers
to supply the million bikes they were going to produce the next year?
Yeah right. *They bought in bulk with discounts from a huge factory
that could guarantee supply of bulk parts to fit on those millions of
bikes. *And if that company could supply road racing parts in additon
to mountain bike parts and cheap kid bike parts, so much the better.
Less contracts to work out.

*I used both in the mid-80's. Sun

Tour failed to keep up with Shimano's SIS indexing system (and STI
later) and that's when Shimano began to dominate. Campy was able to
compete again on performance when the Sun Tour *patents expired and
they executed well with their Ergo levers. Today I use SRAM because I
think they have the best performance.

Bret- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're talking about OEM sales. I don't doubt what you say but that's
not what we were talking about. Frank was saying that racers were
choosing Campy in the 80's due to fashion. I say they were abandoning
Campy and moving to D-A and Superbe for performance reasons.

My bike in 1987 with Superbe:
http://fischer-wade.net/Road%20Racin...des/road2.html

Same bike in 1989 with D-A:
http://fischer-wade.net/Road%20Racin...es/road_1.html

Dia-Compe was a sponsor which accounts for the brakes/levers. They
were really nice brakes.

Bret

On Fri, 06 Mar 2009 11:24:43 GMT, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:

On Thu, 05 Mar 2009 20:22:40 -0700, wrote:

Dear John,

Good heavens, more self-effacing modesty!

Dear Cowardly Carl

I'm especially not modest and I'm not especially immodest.

But I'm fairly honest and open -- far more than you. I don't hide
information about myself. You should try being more open.

Dear John,

Please, keep telling us more about yourself and your many virtues.

You set a shining example for all of us, though perhaps not quite in
the way that you imagine.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 07:02:29 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Mar 6, 6:37*am, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote...

... a reply that is much more logical and polite than he has been
writing. Thank you.

On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 21:19:52 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski

wrote:
Then John, give aserious answer: *Did you not use drilled chainrings?
Why not?

I didn't. Beyond cost and the lack of ability to drill rings myself,
I thought they would catch dirt *be more fragile. *Not good.

Did you use Shimano AX brakes? *Why not?

I didn't trust their braking but did like the levers -- the lack a
cable looked good for comfort and possibly aerodynamics (though that's
a very tricky thing to understand). *As soon as "aero" levers were
easily available and I needed a new pair, I got them.

Did you use an aero water bottle hanging
from the front of your stem? *Why not -

No.

Cost. *Weight on the bars. *Need for standard bottle shapes.

could you not use coat hangers and pliers too make up a bottle mount?

Beyond issues above, no I could not. *Bottles have to be very secure
on the bike and there is no way that would hold them securely enough.

Or do you decide which 1% improvements are
important just by what's fashionable?

If I can get good info and the costs are reasonable, I choose it. *If
a lot of people *who race with success are doing it, the's
information. *You might think that's "fashion" but in the absense of
harder data, it's also information.

I agree, that is information. But I disagree on whether it's
information on much beyond fashion - at least, in many cases.

Over the years we've seen fashions change for racers. For many, many
years Campy rear derailleurs were firmly, strongly in fashion, when I
couldn't afford them. I was using a cheap Sun Tour rear changer. And
I recall watching guys on the expensive bikes grinding their way
through shifts, missing some on the way, when my Sun Tour crisply did
exactly what I told it to. The difference in shifting was night and
day.

If you had gone by your standards, you'd conclude that Campy gave an
advantage over cheap Sun Tour. You'd have been wrong.

And the reason you'd have been wrong is, partly, what I've been saying
all along. The few guys racing on Sun Tour had a shifting advantage.
But that shifting advantage was negligible in the final outcome.
Things like power, endurance, tactics, road roughness, looking at
their watch at the wrong time, and other more important or more random
events overpowered the Sun Tour's ability to shift more quickly and
reliably.

. . .

OK, guys, we're throwing the bikes in the car and going on vacation.
Carry on without me.

- Frank Krygowski

Dear Frank,

Have a nice vacation!

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Mar 6, 12:49*pm, Bret wrote:
On Mar 6, 12:20*pm, "



wrote:
On Mar 6, 10:34*am, Bret wrote:

On Mar 6, 8:02*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Mar 6, 6:37*am, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote...

... a reply that is much more logical and polite than he has been
writing. *Thank you.

On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 21:19:52 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski

wrote:
Then John, give aserious answer: *Did you not use drilled chainrings?
Why not?

I didn't. Beyond cost and the lack of ability to drill rings myself,
I thought they would catch dirt *be more fragile. *Not good.

Did you use Shimano AX brakes? *Why not?

I didn't trust their braking but did like the levers -- the lack a
cable looked good for comfort and possibly aerodynamics (though that's
a very tricky thing to understand). *As soon as "aero" levers were
easily available and I needed a new pair, I got them.

Did you use an aero water bottle hanging
from the front of your stem? *Why not -

No.

Cost. *Weight on the bars. *Need for standard bottle shapes.

could you not use coat hangers and pliers too make up a bottle mount?

Beyond issues above, no I could not. *Bottles have to be very secure
on the bike and there is no way that would hold them securely enough.

Or do you decide which 1% improvements are
important just by what's fashionable?

If I can get good info and the costs are reasonable, I choose it. *If
a lot of people *who race with success are doing it, the's
information. *You might think that's "fashion" but in the absense of
harder data, it's also information.

I agree, that is information. *But I disagree on whether it's
information on much beyond fashion - at least, in many cases.

Over the years we've seen fashions change for racers. *For *many, many
years Campy rear derailleurs were firmly, strongly in fashion, when I
couldn't afford them. *I was using a cheap Sun Tour rear changer. *And
I recall watching guys on the expensive bikes grinding their way
through shifts, missing some on the way, when my Sun Tour crisply did
exactly what I told it to. *The difference in shifting was night and
day.

If you had gone by your standards, you'd conclude that Campy gave an
advantage over cheap Sun Tour. *You'd have been wrong.

And the reason you'd have been wrong is, partly, what I've been saying
all along. *The few guys racing on Sun Tour had a shifting advantage.
But that shifting advantage was negligible in the final outcome.
Things like power, endurance, tactics, road roughness, looking at
their watch at the wrong time, and other more important or more random
events overpowered the Sun Tour's ability to shift more quickly and
reliably.

. . .

OK, guys, we're throwing the bikes in the car and going on vacation..
Carry on without me.

- Frank Krygowski

This is a misrepresentation of what happened at the time. Campy lost a
lot of market share in the 80's due to poor shifting performance. Lots
of people switched to Shimano D-A or Sun Tour Superbe once the overall
group quality became competitive.

Maybe. *But probably not. *Campagnolo lost out overall because they
did not have a mountain group when mountain bikes became popular in
the 1980s. *They also did not have the ability (factories) to produce
enough parts to fill all of the bikes being made. *Shimano had a broad
range of bicycle groups, big factories, parts to fit on every type of
bike. *Once they got in the door on every bike under the sun, it was
easy to take away the road racing segment too. *90% of a company's
bikes (child to adult) are supplied with Shimano and 10% with Campy.
Easy for Shimano to start filling up that other 10%.

You honestly think the factory part buyers gave a rats arse about
shifting quality when they were talking to the corporate parts sellers
to supply the million bikes they were going to produce the next year?
Yeah right. *They bought in bulk with discounts from a huge factory
that could guarantee supply of bulk parts to fit on those millions of
bikes. *And if that company could supply road racing parts in additon
to mountain bike parts and cheap kid bike parts, so much the better.
Less contracts to work out.

*I used both in the mid-80's. Sun

Tour failed to keep up with Shimano's SIS indexing system (and STI
later) and that's when Shimano began to dominate. Campy was able to
compete again on performance when the Sun Tour *patents expired and
they executed well with their Ergo levers. Today I use SRAM because I
think they have the best performance.

Bret- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're talking about OEM sales. I don't doubt what you say but that's
not what we were talking about. Frank was saying that racers were
choosing Campy in the 80's due to fashion. I say they were abandoning
Campy and moving to D-A and Superbe for performance reasons.

My bike in 1987 with Superbe:http://fischer-wade.net/Road%20Racin...des/road2.html

Same bike in 1989 with D-A:http://fischer-wade.net/Road%20Racin...es/road_1.html

Dia-Compe was a sponsor which accounts for the brakes/levers. They
were really nice brakes.

Bret

Now that I think about it. That second picture is from a hillclimb TT
(Cat 3 Killington Prologue) where I won by 1 sec in a race that lasted
slightly under eight minutes. That's a .2% margin. If I had carried a
water bottle I probably wouldn't have won.

Bret

On Mar 6, 12:24*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 07:02:29 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski




snip


And the reason you'd have been wrong is, partly, what I've been saying
all along.


snip

. . .

OK, guys, we're throwing the bikes in the car and going on vacation.
Carry on without me.

- Frank Krygowski

Dear Frank,

Have a nice vacation!

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

May you have sunshine, and a gentle breeze at your back :-)

wrote:
Dear John,
Good heavens, more self-effacing modesty!

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
Dear Cowardly Carl
I'm especially not modest and I'm not especially immodest.
But I'm fairly honest and open -- far more than you. I don't hide
information about myself. You should try being more open.

wrote:
Dear John,
Please, keep telling us more about yourself and your many virtues.
You set a shining example for all of us, though perhaps not quite in
the way that you imagine.

Could you two just rent a room already?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971