700/23 vs 700/25 tires ?

On 7 Mar, 17:44, wrote:
On Mar 6, 7:55*pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:

"jeffreybike" wrote:
Is there any real difference between 23mm and 25mm tires as far as
speed. Will 2mm make you that slower or faster?
thanks, Jeff

Should have skipped the thanks, since no good answer has been provided
as of yet.

Bad questions reap a bountiful harvest of bad answers,
and predicating it on a false dichotomy is like slowly moving
upstream with a long line of hooks out.

The answer is 35.

How many spokes are needed to finish a road race.

TJ

On Sat, 7 Mar 2009 07:03:57 -0800 (PST), Bret
wrote:

That sounds like the same race. The finish was at the Snowshed lodge
which was on a flat section above a steep pitch but short of the top.
Event Services under exposed their film for the 3's finish and didn't
have a backup plan. They knew I had won but couldn't figure out the
rest. The officials just stalled until everyone left. I waited for
about five hours before giving up.

I left after about two hours.

That race would have been easy to pick with a few people and tape
recorders. Would take a long time to transcribe (considering there
were hundreds of riders in all fields) but not complicated.

The results that were eventually
produced were protested by mail. I think I finally got a check months
later and it bounced.

I had a love/hate thing with Killington.

Here's a bunch of pictures from it in it's last few years
http://www.jt10000.com/team/tgal/gal17.htm
http://www.jt10000.com/team/tgal/gal03.htm

On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 11:49:46 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

OK, then. Prove it. You keep making these assertions without backing
them up with any facts. Provide us with facts. Your continual "is too"
approach is not convincing.

Chung provided stats. Sandy provided stats on power and tires.

The closest "proof" I can provide is practice -- what is done. By
thousands of people.

Do you apply the same sort of skeptism in other aspects of your life?
For something you don't have data on but the vast majority of people
do it one way that's differen than, say, 25 years ago, and you keep
doing it the old way just because of the lack of non-experiential
evidence? Really?

On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 12:17:28 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

I am- I hope- being logically rigorous

Hahahaha.

Tim McNamara wrote:
-much snip-
Psychology plays a role, too- for example, I have never been driven by
the need to win. When I got beaten in a sprint, for example, it didn't
really bother me. People who win a lot of bike races are usually driven
by that need (interestingly enough, though, that doesn't necessarily
bleed into other aspects of their personality. One of the best local
racers here is also one of the nicest and most helpful guys you could
ever meet. But he'll blow your doors off in a race).
-snip-

I've known a lot of bike racers over the years, many combative and
feisty, but the champions are all quite gentlemanly off the course.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mar 7, 12:21*pm, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
On Sat, 7 Mar 2009 07:03:57 -0800 (PST), Bret
wrote:

That sounds like the same race. The finish was at the Snowshed lodge
which was on a flat section above a steep pitch but short of the top.
Event Services under exposed their film for the 3's finish and didn't
have a backup plan. They knew I had won but couldn't figure out the
rest. The officials just stalled until everyone left. I waited for
about five hours before giving up.

I left after about two hours.

That race would have been easy to pick with a few people and tape
recorders. *Would take a long time to transcribe (considering there
were hundreds of riders in all fields) but not complicated.

The results that were eventually
produced were protested by mail. I think I finally got a check months
later and it bounced.

I had a love/hate thing with Killington.

Their motto was "we're not a professional race organization". The year
I won the prologue, they never posted results after the first RR
stage. I didn't wear the race leader jersey in the 2nd RR stage
because I had no idea who took the time bonuses in stage 1 and I
didn't want to show up in the jersey only to find out I wasn't
actually leader anymore. At the line the starter said, "where's the
race leader"? I said "you never posted results". He said, "we're not a
professional race organization". I said, "did you think I was going to
figure it out on my own"? But I really liked that race and did it four
times


Here's a bunch of pictures from it in it's last few yearshttp://www.jt10000.com/team/tgal/gal17.htmhttp://www.jt10000.com/team/tgal/gal03.htm

Good pictures.

Bret

On Mar 7, 10:48*am, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article
,



*Bret wrote:
On Mar 6, 8:48*am, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article
,

*Bret wrote:
On Mar 5, 7:31*pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article

om,

*Bret wrote:
On Mar 4, 5:54*pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article

ps.c om,

*Bret wrote:
On Mar 3, 5:27*pm, Tim McNamara
wrote:
In article

roup s.co m,

*Bret wrote:
If you have the physical ability

Bingo. *The key to racing success. *That and tactics.

I believe that there are key moments where the bike can
make a difference. Frank dodged that part of my post.

"Believe" being the operative word. *As Ben has pointed out
very well, it can't be proven.

Another example, in a mountain road race I once summited
Wolf Creek pass, an eight mile climb, well down on the
race leaders, but only 20 seconds down on a strong chase
group that eventually rolled up everyone in front of
them. It wouldn't have taken much of a difference for me
to have been at the front of that race.

It often seems like the guys who beat us do so by that 1%
gap which we *ought* to be able to overcome with a lighter
bike, or a little more training, etc. *It's often a
self-delusion. *The guys who beat us ride just hard enough
to beat us- there being no reason to ride harder than that-
but might have 15% capacity left untapped while we are at
100%.

This is not true in a photo finish situation. Both riders
will be at 100% unless one has misjudge the finish.

Which are rare except in professional cycling, and even then
the winning rider may be at 101% of his competitor's capacity
and have 10% of his own left in reserve. *Erik Zabel could
outsprint me with one foot unclipped and keeping 50% of his
reserve in a photo finish.

I don't see any logic to what you are saying here. Nobody
intentionally leaves a race finish that close. Ask Beppe.

Unless someone is serving their ego, there's no reason to expend
any more energy than necessary. *I've been in and seen plenty of
races where the winner basically cruises home while everybody else
is killing themselves. *Winning a crit by 30 seconds is not "more
win" than winning it by 1 second.

Stage racing where the GC is determined by time changes the
calculus on that, of course. *But people racing for stage wins and
people racing for GC have different strategies.

You seem to have lost track of what we were talking about. A 1 second
win is not very close in the context of this discussion.

The principle holds, Bret, if we are talking about a half a wheel versus
10 bike lengths. *There's no reason to expend more energy than
necessary. *In head-to-head-the-strongest-one-wins scenarios, it's quite
possible that the winner has much more in reserve than the loser.

I was talking about photo finishes where the difference is less than 2
cm. I've been in that situation at least six times and there is no
room for holding back.

Half a wheel is a very different situation. A 1 second difference is
almost 18 meters at 40 mph.

Bret

In article ,
Tim McNamara wrote:

It's all stochastic, man.

No, it is not.

--
Michael Press

wrote:
On Mar 6, 7:55 pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
"jeffreybike" wrote:
Is there any real difference between 23mm and 25mm tires as far as
speed. Will 2mm make you that slower or faster?
thanks, Jeff
Should have skipped the thanks, since no good answer has been provided
as of yet.


Bad questions reap a bountiful harvest of bad answers,
and predicating it on a false dichotomy is like slowly moving
upstream with a long line of hooks out.

The answer is 35.

No, it is 42.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

In article
,
Bret wrote:

On Mar 7, 10:48*am, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article
,



*Bret wrote:
On Mar 6, 8:48*am, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article

om,

*Bret wrote:
On Mar 5, 7:31*pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article

ps.c om,

*Bret wrote:
On Mar 4, 5:54*pm, Tim McNamara
wrote:
In article

grou ps.c om,

*Bret wrote:
On Mar 3, 5:27*pm, Tim McNamara
wrote:
In article

gleg roup s.co m,

*Bret wrote:
If you have the physical ability

Bingo. *The key to racing success. *That and
tactics.

I believe that there are key moments where the bike
can make a difference. Frank dodged that part of my
post.

"Believe" being the operative word. *As Ben has pointed
out very well, it can't be proven.

Another example, in a mountain road race I once
summited Wolf Creek pass, an eight mile climb, well
down on the race leaders, but only 20 seconds down on
a strong chase group that eventually rolled up
everyone in front of them. It wouldn't have taken
much of a difference for me to have been at the front
of that race.

It often seems like the guys who beat us do so by that
1% gap which we *ought* to be able to overcome with a
lighter bike, or a little more training, etc. *It's
often a self-delusion. *The guys who beat us ride just
hard enough to beat us- there being no reason to ride
harder than that- but might have 15% capacity left
untapped while we are at 100%.

This is not true in a photo finish situation. Both riders
will be at 100% unless one has misjudge the finish.

Which are rare except in professional cycling, and even
then the winning rider may be at 101% of his competitor's
capacity and have 10% of his own left in reserve. *Erik
Zabel could outsprint me with one foot unclipped and
keeping 50% of his reserve in a photo finish.

I don't see any logic to what you are saying here. Nobody
intentionally leaves a race finish that close. Ask Beppe.

Unless someone is serving their ego, there's no reason to
expend any more energy than necessary. *I've been in and seen
plenty of races where the winner basically cruises home while
everybody else is killing themselves. *Winning a crit by 30
seconds is not "more win" than winning it by 1 second.

Stage racing where the GC is determined by time changes the
calculus on that, of course. *But people racing for stage wins
and people racing for GC have different strategies.

You seem to have lost track of what we were talking about. A 1
second win is not very close in the context of this discussion.

The principle holds, Bret, if we are talking about a half a wheel
versus 10 bike lengths. *There's no reason to expend more energy
than necessary. *In head-to-head-the-strongest-one-wins scenarios,
it's quite possible that the winner has much more in reserve than
the loser.

I was talking about photo finishes where the difference is less than
2 cm. I've been in that situation at least six times and there is no
room for holding back.

In that scenario that is reasonable.

Half a wheel is a very different situation. A 1 second difference is
almost 18 meters at 40 mph.

Yup. In amateur racing, though, 40 mph sprints are not all that common
as most race organizers create courses that don't allow it.