MTB cone type wheel bearings.

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:23:10 +0700, J.B.Slocomb wrote:

Did the inner tube shield help? Do the fenders help? That's one of my
points: How can we possibly know?

Rather like a St. Christopher medallion :-)

I have a "Nazar BoncuÄŸu" They work on a very similar scientific
principle.
--
davethedave

James wrote:
:On 23/04/13 09:38, J.B.Slocomb wrote:
: On Tue, 23 Apr 2013 08:25:39 +1000,
: wrote:
:
: On 23/04/13 02:45, Phil W Lee wrote:
: considered Mon, 22 Apr 2013 08:27:11
: +1000 the perfect time to write:
:
: On 19/04/13 13:50, David Scheidt wrote:
: Frank wrote:
: :On Apr 18, 8:11 pm, wrote:
: : On 19/04/13 08:38, Phil W Lee wrote:
: :
: : considered Thu, 18 Apr 2013 08:11:06
: : +1000 the perfect time to write:
: : The quote is not clear because it does not define what the increase is
: : with respect to. I have read other papers that say cageless bearings
: : run hotter than caged bearings - thus more friction losses in the
: : cageless variety.
: :
: : Unless you can explain how adding multiple points of sliding contact
: : can reduce friction over a design with only rolling contact, that
: : falls well short of sensible.
: :
: : What is a design with only rolling contact? If you mean a cage less
: : rolling bearing (ball or roller), then please explain how sliding
: : contact is avoided when there is no cage to keep the rolling elements
: : from touching?
: :
: : Please also explain to me, as I've obviously lost me bearings, why a
: : google search yields results such as;
: :
: : "Ball Cage Effect
: : The early forms of ball bearings were full-ball types without ball
: : cages. Friction between balls caused loud
: : noise, made high-speed rotation impossible and shortened the service
: : life. Twenty years later, a Caged Ball
: : design was developed for ball bearings. The new design enabled
: : high-speed rotation at a low noise level,
: : and extended the service life despite the reduced number of balls used.
: : It marked a major development in
: : the history of ball bearings.
: : Similarly, the quality of needle bearings was significantly improved by
: : the caged needle structure.
: : With cage-less, full-ball types of ball bearings, balls make metallic
: : contact with one another and
: : produce loud noise. In addition, they rotate in opposite directions,
: : causing the sliding contact between two
: : adjacent balls to occur at a speed twice the ball-spinning rate. It
: : results in severe wear and shortens the
: : service life.
: : In addition, without a cage, balls make point contact to increase
: : bearing stress, thus facilitating
: : breakage of the oil film. In contrast, each caged ball contacts the cage
: : over a wide area. Therefore, the oil
: : film does not break, the noise level is low and balls can rotate at a
: : high speed, resulting in a long
: : service life."
: :
: : (google "site:tech.thk.com Caged Ball SHS")
:
: :Looks to me like they're advertising their design feature.
:
: :I left all my bearing catalogs behind when I retired, but I know for
: :sure that a bearing's load capacity is increased when the number of
: :balls increases. For ordinary industrial ball bearings, the type with
: :the cage is called a Conrad bearing; it's the basic type. The type
: :that crams an extra ball or two into the groove is called a slot-fill
: :bearing, or full complement bearing. Its radial load capacity is
: :definitely higher, due to the higher ball count. (Its axial load
: :capacity is far lower, due to the groove.)
:
: Conrad and slot fill bearings are relevant to bearings designed to
: carry a purely radial load. Remember, of course, that a cup and cone
: bicycle bearing is an angular contact bearing, which can carry radial and
: axial loads in different proportion by varying the angles of the races.
: Importantly, they can be made as a full complement bearing without
: needing the slot for assembly, since they come apart axially. The Conrad
: bearing solved James's objection that without a cage, the balls will
: move, which does lead to bearing failure. But with a full complement of
: balls, you don't need a cage to maintain spacing, since there's no extra
: space to dispalce into. The cage is really just for easy of assembly
: (and maybe stocking spares). It's often used to reduce the number of
: balls in the bearing, but it needn't be.
:
:
:
: My objection was not only that the balls can move and not be evenly
: spaced, but that they press against one another without a cage, and the
: relative motion between the rubbing surfaces is in opposing directions.
:
: But they won't press against each other any more than they would press
: against a cage, and certainly not as continuously.
:
: Where is your evidence?
:
: The pressure and speed of relative motion is greater than that seen when
: there is a cage to keep the balls separated.
:
: The pressure is (at most) the same as for a cage, and is between two
: hardened, curved, surfaces, and only intermittently.
:
: Again, your evidence?
:
: It has been noted that full compliment bearings run hotter, and need
: better lubrication flow (than a caged bearing) to maintain a lubrication
: film between the balls. I.e. there is more friction and wear. The type
: of lubrication required for longevity is not so easy to achieve in a
: bicycle hub or BB.
:
: No more difficult than in a wheel bearing or suspension pivot of a
: car, and much less heavily loaded.
:
: Car wheel bearings (tapered roller) have a cage - at least all those
: that I've worked on have. And in fact wheel bearings on car trailers
: are notorious for self destruction because the lubrication is
: insufficient, they tend to not be used often, and the hub tends to let
: moisture in - much like bicycle hubs.
:
: I've yet to hear of any bicycle application where heat is a problem in
: any (properly maintained) bearing.
:
: Heat is indicative of friction. The research papers and other sources
: I've read say that full compliment bearings get hotter, therefore there
: is more friction.
:
: Friction usually leads to wear, therefore I conclude they wear out
: faster too.
:
: On the other hand the more balls the more the bearing will support,
: attested by research papers also. So which is better, the pillar or
: the post :-)

:Yes, John, we've been over that before. The more balls support more
:load, and provided the speed is kept low (gee, think why that might be),
:and the lubrication adequate (which is unlikely in a bicycle hub or BB),

You keep saying that. Do you have evidence to support that?

--
sig 32

On Apr 27, 4:28*pm, "Ian Field"
wrote:
"Dan O" wrote in message

...









On Apr 26, 9:02 am, wrote:
On Friday, April 26, 2013 12:21:46 AM UTC-4, J. B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2013 20:23:21 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote:

But the bearing that seems to fail most often is in the headset. *Yet

I don't recall ever seeing a grease or oil injection system for

headsets. *Anyone know anything about such an animal?

- Frank Krygowski

Didn't Brandt have a long, drawn out, explanation for headset bearings

failing. I seem to remember much toing and froing about whether the

bearings brinnelled the races or not.

I've also seen arguments that it is the water thrown off the front

wheel that washes the grease out of the lower bearing and instructions

for making a rain seal out of a section of old inner tube.

Yes, you recall correctly on both points. *I'm with Jobst on the false
brinelling issue. *And I did the inner tube seal on a bike long, long
ago. *But for many years now, I run fenders full time on all my bikes.
(Well, except the latest build; its fenders are waiting on my workbench
as we speak.)

Did the inner tube shield help? *Do the fenders help? *That's one of my
points: How can we possibly know?

The fender is bound to help (especially for riding conditions like
mine). *Road spray spinning forcefully off the front wheel directly at
the lower race is bound to be bad.

The inner tube I'm not so sure about (not sure how that's configured);
you'd want to be sure it doesn't impede draining and drying air
circulation. *Grease should do most of the waterproofing, but dirt and
other road gunk will break down the grease.

More like all the road crap turns the grease into grinding paste.

no, grease generally becomes hygroscopic with age and draws in the
dust with the water. There is a combination of corrosion and wear but
it's not due to the dust, it is due to the deterioration of the
lubricant. If there was only one place one could use MoS2 on a
bicycle, this is where I'd choose to put it. Can't say it bothered me
that my Stronglight A9 got stiff, I don't ride a bike in that way.

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 18:28:41 +0300, davethedave
wrote:

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:23:10 +0700, J.B.Slocomb wrote:

Did the inner tube shield help? Do the fenders help? That's one of my
points: How can we possibly know?

Rather like a St. Christopher medallion :-)

I have a "Nazar Boncu?u" They work on a very similar scientific
principle.

I think you misspelled "Nazar Boncu?u" :-) But I have read that they
only protect from the Evil Eye while St. Christopher is specifically
designed for travelers :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 07:19:26 +0700, J.B.Slocomb wrote:

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 18:28:41 +0300, davethedave
wrote:

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:23:10 +0700, J.B.Slocomb wrote:

Did the inner tube shield help? Do the fenders help? That's one of
my points: How can we possibly know?

Rather like a St. Christopher medallion :-)

I have a "Nazar BoncuÄŸu" They work on a very similar scientific
principle.

I think you misspelled "Nazar Boncu?u" :-) But I have read that they
only protect from the Evil Eye while St. Christopher is specifically
designed for travelers :-)

Yanlış yazmadığımden yuzde yuz eminim.

I can assure you it was spelt entirely correctly with the soft g. It
won't get mangled if your news reader does UTF8. They do provide
protection from the evil eye.

I also have a voodoo charm of protection from a witch doctor in Benin
which deals with other risks. It has proven to be excellent value for
money and has protected my from many muggings which didn't happen that I
had no idea about.

The inner tube shield on the other hand has at least a bit of logic to
how it works despite not being able to prove a non event.
--
davethedave

On 27/04/13 01:23, Ian Field wrote:


"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
On Apr 25, 9:50 pm, Dan O wrote:

My new bike has (Shimano M-770 hubs) much, much better sealed cone and
cup bearings. The thing is, either I can leave it alone until it
starts to tell me it lneeds attention, or I can open it up and take a
look; but just opening it up significantly risks getting the gritty
grime from the outside in, and by the time I've got it open it's often
worthwhile to go ahead and disassemble, clean, inspect, etc. But the
seals do a really great job.

Cleaning involves different levels of "clean room" envornmental and
process control - bearings, cups, cones, seals, and axle must be
~immaculate; outside parts can tolerate less stringent control, but
still want care in pulling the gritty gunk away and not into the wrong
places.

...

I very much like a good cartridge bearing hub (like my Phil Wood), but
I've opened up to inspect my well sealed Shimano cup and cone front
wheel many times in the few years I've had it, and almost every time I
just take a look and everything's dandy and then I put it back
together.

The concern about opening a hub for service has some validity.
Obviously, most of us can handle it, but it takes time to be sure that
we're not introducing grit during the process.

I like the idea of the old SunTour Grease Guard (was that its name?)
that allowed you to just pump grease in until you saw a bit emerge at
the other end. And similarly, I still use the center oiling hole on
some of my hubs, disassembling the bearings only every few years.

But the bearing that seems to fail most often is in the headset. Yet
I don't recall ever seeing a grease or oil injection system for
headsets. Anyone know anything about such an animal?


The steering head tube usually has openings where the frame tubes are
welded on - if you had a grease nipple there, you'd just fill the frame
tubes with grease (although some might end up in the bottom bracket if
there's a connecting hole) before you pushed much grease into the
bearing runs.

Same applies to the bottom bracket - if you pump in grease, you fill a
fair way up the seat tube before any emerges from the bearing.

Or, you replace the headset with one that takes sealed cartridge roller
bearings, like most A-head headsets do.

--
JS

On 27/04/13 01:57, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/25/2013 11:21 PM, J.B.Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2013 20:23:21 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Apr 25, 9:50 pm, Dan O wrote:

My new bike has (Shimano M-770 hubs) much, much better sealed cone and
cup bearings. The thing is, either I can leave it alone until it
starts to tell me it lneeds attention, or I can open it up and take a
look; but just opening it up significantly risks getting the gritty
grime from the outside in, and by the time I've got it open it's often
worthwhile to go ahead and disassemble, clean, inspect, etc. But the
seals do a really great job.

Cleaning involves different levels of "clean room" envornmental and
process control - bearings, cups, cones, seals, and axle must be
~immaculate; outside parts can tolerate less stringent control, but
still want care in pulling the gritty gunk away and not into the wrong
places.

...

I very much like a good cartridge bearing hub (like my Phil Wood), but
I've opened up to inspect my well sealed Shimano cup and cone front
wheel many times in the few years I've had it, and almost every time I
just take a look and everything's dandy and then I put it back
together.

The concern about opening a hub for service has some validity.
Obviously, most of us can handle it, but it takes time to be sure that
we're not introducing grit during the process.

I like the idea of the old SunTour Grease Guard (was that its name?)
that allowed you to just pump grease in until you saw a bit emerge at
the other end. And similarly, I still use the center oiling hole on
some of my hubs, disassembling the bearings only every few years.

But the bearing that seems to fail most often is in the headset. Yet
I don't recall ever seeing a grease or oil injection system for
headsets. Anyone know anything about such an animal?

- Frank Krygowski

Didn't Brandt have a long, drawn out, explanation for headset bearings
failing. I seem to remember much toing and froing about whether the
bearings brinnelled the races or not.

I've also seen arguments that it is the water thrown off the front
wheel that washes the grease out of the lower bearing and instructions
for making a rain seal out of a section of old inner tube.


It's not a Brinell effect. If it were there would be raised material
around the dimples. There is not such.

It's a micro weld effect, the material being removed not merely
displaced on the bearing surface.

I note in passing that older designs such as on my 1953 Raleigh have
cuplike cups (i.e., not conical. They hold oil from running out) and
more small bearings. With occasional oiling, they last a very long time
despite unexceptional material and finish (as compared to a Record for
example).


From what I've read, ceramic balls can not micro weld to the races.
Perhaps ceramic balls in an old style HS would eliminate this type of wear?

--
JS.

On 4/28/2013 5:01 PM, James wrote:
On 27/04/13 01:57, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/25/2013 11:21 PM, J.B.Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2013 20:23:21 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Apr 25, 9:50 pm, Dan O wrote:

My new bike has (Shimano M-770 hubs) much, much better
sealed cone and
cup bearings. The thing is, either I can leave it alone
until it
starts to tell me it lneeds attention, or I can open it
up and take a
look; but just opening it up significantly risks
getting the gritty
grime from the outside in, and by the time I've got it
open it's often
worthwhile to go ahead and disassemble, clean, inspect,
etc. But the
seals do a really great job.

Cleaning involves different levels of "clean room"
envornmental and
process control - bearings, cups, cones, seals, and
axle must be
~immaculate; outside parts can tolerate less stringent
control, but
still want care in pulling the gritty gunk away and not
into the wrong
places.

...

I very much like a good cartridge bearing hub (like my
Phil Wood), but
I've opened up to inspect my well sealed Shimano cup
and cone front
wheel many times in the few years I've had it, and
almost every time I
just take a look and everything's dandy and then I put
it back
together.

The concern about opening a hub for service has some
validity.
Obviously, most of us can handle it, but it takes time
to be sure that
we're not introducing grit during the process.

I like the idea of the old SunTour Grease Guard (was
that its name?)
that allowed you to just pump grease in until you saw a
bit emerge at
the other end. And similarly, I still use the center
oiling hole on
some of my hubs, disassembling the bearings only every
few years.

But the bearing that seems to fail most often is in the
headset. Yet
I don't recall ever seeing a grease or oil injection
system for
headsets. Anyone know anything about such an animal?

- Frank Krygowski

Didn't Brandt have a long, drawn out, explanation for
headset bearings
failing. I seem to remember much toing and froing about
whether the
bearings brinnelled the races or not.

I've also seen arguments that it is the water thrown off
the front
wheel that washes the grease out of the lower bearing and
instructions
for making a rain seal out of a section of old inner tube.


It's not a Brinell effect. If it were there would be
raised material
around the dimples. There is not such.

It's a micro weld effect, the material being removed not
merely
displaced on the bearing surface.

I note in passing that older designs such as on my 1953
Raleigh have
cuplike cups (i.e., not conical. They hold oil from
running out) and
more small bearings. With occasional oiling, they last a
very long time
despite unexceptional material and finish (as compared to
a Record for
example).


From what I've read, ceramic balls can not micro weld to
the races. Perhaps ceramic balls in an old style HS would
eliminate this type of wear?


Perhaps. There was a guy in Oklahoma who produced a Delrin
torus to replace the 3/16" balls of a worn Campagnolo Record
that worked well. A bit stiff unloaded, but a quick and sure
cure for 'indexed headset'; felt just fine once a rider was
on it.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 28/04/13 01:39, David Scheidt wrote:
wrote:

:Yes, John, we've been over that before. The more balls support more
:load, and provided the speed is kept low (gee, think why that might be),
:and the lubrication adequate (which is unlikely in a bicycle hub or BB),

You keep saying that. Do you have evidence to support that?


"Adequate" for full complement bearings that I've read about, means
continuous fluid lubricant feed.

--
JS.

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 14:08:36 +0300, davethedave
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 07:19:26 +0700, J.B.Slocomb wrote:

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 18:28:41 +0300, davethedave
wrote:

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:23:10 +0700, J.B.Slocomb wrote:

Did the inner tube shield help? Do the fenders help? That's one of
my points: How can we possibly know?

Rather like a St. Christopher medallion :-)

I have a "Nazar Boncu?u" They work on a very similar scientific
principle.

I think you misspelled "Nazar Boncu?u" :-) But I have read that they
only protect from the Evil Eye while St. Christopher is specifically
designed for travelers :-)

Yanl?? yazmad???mden yuzde yuz eminim.

I can assure you it was spelt entirely correctly with the soft g. It
won't get mangled if your news reader does UTF8. They do provide
protection from the evil eye.

I was referring to the "?" in the middle.


I also have a voodoo charm of protection from a witch doctor in Benin
which deals with other risks. It has proven to be excellent value for
money and has protected my from many muggings which didn't happen that I
had no idea about.

The inner tube shield on the other hand has at least a bit of logic to
how it works despite not being able to prove a non event.
--
Cheers,

John B.