Heaven and Hell

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 23:16:37 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:52:32 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:28:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/19/2021 11:18 PM, John B. wrote:

On a personal basis I really can't see what the furor is about. Over
here you are required to wear a mask in a public place - store,
office, etc. and everybody just does it. No leaping up and down,
waving of arms and shouting, "I don't wanna do that". In fact we have
been having some Student protests about the government and even those
protesting are wear masks :-)

Well, I think many right wingers are timid and delicate. They fear that
wearing a mask may decrease their blood oxygen content by a percent, and
they quiver in fear.

More honestly, right wingers jump on even the least plausible
justification for their political posturing.

A very good friend of mine works as a civilian at a naval base.
Supposedly the commander said certain recreation facilities will not be
allowed to open until 80% of sailors are vaccinated. But many are still
refusing.

My guy said it's nuts. He says it's normal for them to be subjected to
mandatory vaccination for other maladies before shipping out, and
there's never any objection.
....
But like every other aspect of COVID, right wing politics trumps both
science and reasonable past practice.

I had been in the Service for more then ten years when I was sent to
Vietnam and had, of course, had shots every year for my whole time in
the service. But as preparation to my sojourn in South East Asia I got
shots on both arms and one "big one" in the butt. After I got my shirt
on and my pants pulled up the ,Medic says, "you aren't going anywhere
for the next few days are you?" And I say "Hows come?". And he says
well, after you get the plague shot (the big one in the arse) we like
you to stay around for a few days", and I say, "you mean some people
get the plague from the shot?", and he don't say nothing.

A little more seriously, I don't know about now but when I was in the
Air Force there was a regulation that you could not refuse any medical
or dental treatment that the doctor prescribed for your health.

Were you ever ordered to take any medical treatments that were not FDA
approved?

I have no idea whether any treatment that was administered to me was
approved by the FDA or not. However I had a guy working for me (in the
U.S.A.F.) who was ordered to have all his teeth pulled. When he argued
that "you can't pull my teeth" he was shown a U.S.A.F. regulation that
stated that failure to accept any medical procedure that was
prescribed by a doctor was punishable by court martial.

I would give pretty good odds that all of the medical treatment you were
ordered to receive had been approved by the FDA, or whatever the
relevant organization was at the time. I suspect that the reason
current US military personnel are merely asked to volunteer for a covid
shot is that it is an experimental treatment, and it would look bad if
it later turned out to have undue side effects.

As I said, I have no idea but back in the early 1950's we used to get
an annual "flu shot" and I remember one year it made so many people
sick that they had to cancel flying for several days as there was no
one available to work on the flight line. Memory is often fallible but
I don't remember having a flu shot after that episode.

It does seem that all three covid shots are associated with some
elevated risk of cerebral blood clots. This does not mean that those at
a high risk of serious illness should avoid the shots, but almost all
those in the military are at an age where they are not at such risk, and
avoiding the vaccine just might be a rational choice.

Plus, didn't the Air Force teach you to think twice when asked to
volunteer for *anything*?

Nope, the rule of thumb was "never volunteer". If they want you they
will come and get you :-)

There you go, why would you expect any different from this generation?

Rolf Mantel writes:

Am 21.04.2021 um 22:44 schrieb Radey Shouman:

Essentially you're telling me that I really should wear a
St. Christopher medal, because it's easier on the pocket than a rabbit's
foot, less likely to smell bad, and won't offend vegans, while
completely begging the question of how either one does any good at all.

Funnily enough, this St Christopher's medal (or something else) has
all but stalled the flu season world-wide; there is no "flu season"
2020/21 to speak of in Europe or the USA.
https://www.today.com/health/flu-season-2020-2021-flu-activity-historic-lows-mask-wearing-t207131

It's not clear that there would have been without it. One respiratory
virus tends to win every year, and largely replace the others. For
example, one flu strain tends to be dominant.

But I take your point that precautions against covid might well have
protected many people against flu. I'm not saying we should not take
any precautions, just that the costs have to be balanced against the
benefits. For example, if a complete lockdown every winter were shown
conclusively to prevent all flu, I would still be against it.

Frank Krygowski writes:

On 4/22/2021 11:21 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
I believe that voluntary behavior changes have made a significant
difference in the pandemic progress. These are done in self interest,
they need not be mandated with criminal penalties. Those that are
unlikely to voluntarily change their behavior due to risk are also
unlikely to change their behavior due to regulation.

First, understand that I agree, there have been mistakes and bad
decisions. Some of those can be explained by the fact that this event
is new and unique in several ways. Other bad decisions can't be
excused that way.

It is *not* new and unique. It is comparable to the pandemic flus of
1957 and 1968, and much less dangerous than the pandemic flu of 1918.
What is new and unique is the influence of a school of epidemiology that
owes nothing to clinical practice, and is based on numerically assisted
guesswork, abetted by governments the world over that are set on
whipping up public hysteria.

But about voluntary behavior changes made in self interest: Those
alone are not sufficient. Take one dude who thinks it's in his greater
self interest to omit the mask so he can continue smoking as he enters
a small shop and begins coughing loudly. That puts the counter girl at
risk, and there's nothing she can do to protect her self interest. Or
at the other end of some cultural spectrum, the people who gathered in
a small church for a long choir rehearsal did very badly.

I saw a wide, wide range of risk assessments and behavior among my
friends and extended family. I had one friend who very nearly died and
a couple who were very sick. Unfortunately, our personal sample size
is small and behavior details inadequately known to say who was wrong,
who was right and who was just lucky.

But I did see a NYT article today that claimed outdoor masking was
almost certainly not necessary. (Outdoors, distanced, masked: pick any
two.) That was my judgment from the first, and I'm glad it worked for
us.

And yet I am liable to a $300 fine for not wearing a mask when walking
outside completely alone.

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 1:05:22 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
Rolf Mantel writes:

Am 21.04.2021 um 22:44 schrieb Radey Shouman:

Essentially you're telling me that I really should wear a
St. Christopher medal, because it's easier on the pocket than a rabbit's
foot, less likely to smell bad, and won't offend vegans, while
completely begging the question of how either one does any good at all..

Funnily enough, this St Christopher's medal (or something else) has
all but stalled the flu season world-wide; there is no "flu season"
2020/21 to speak of in Europe or the USA.
https://www.today.com/health/flu-season-2020-2021-flu-activity-historic-lows-mask-wearing-t207131
It's not clear that there would have been without it. One respiratory
virus tends to win every year, and largely replace the others. For
example, one flu strain tends to be dominant.

But I take your point that precautions against covid might well have
protected many people against flu. I'm not saying we should not take
any precautions, just that the costs have to be balanced against the
benefits. For example, if a complete lockdown every winter were shown
conclusively to prevent all flu, I would still be against it.
It isn't that some new virus replaces the old, It is that the people have become immune to the previous virus. This is the insanity of Fauci who somehow has the idea that this is a dangerous permanent virus. In fact THAT virus is now harmless and has been harmless since last May 1. Next year there will probably be a new virus though occasionally there is no mutation to a new flu. This is usually called "antigenic drift" rather than mutations but it is the same thing.

On 4/23/2021 4:12 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:


But I did see a NYT article today that claimed outdoor masking was
almost certainly not necessary. (Outdoors, distanced, masked: pick any
two.) That was my judgment from the first, and I'm glad it worked for
us.

And yet I am liable to a $300 fine for not wearing a mask when walking
outside completely alone.

Yes, Massachusetts has that rule. I agree, it's wrong.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 1:05:22 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
Rolf Mantel writes:

Am 21.04.2021 um 22:44 schrieb Radey Shouman:

Essentially you're telling me that I really should wear a
St. Christopher medal, because it's easier on the pocket than a rabbit's
foot, less likely to smell bad, and won't offend vegans, while
completely begging the question of how either one does any good at all.

Funnily enough, this St Christopher's medal (or something else) has
all but stalled the flu season world-wide; there is no "flu season"
2020/21 to speak of in Europe or the USA.
https://www.today.com/health/flu-season-2020-2021-flu-activity-historic-lows-mask-wearing-t207131
It's not clear that there would have been without it. One respiratory
virus tends to win every year, and largely replace the others. For
example, one flu strain tends to be dominant.

But I take your point that precautions against covid might well have
protected many people against flu. I'm not saying we should not take
any precautions, just that the costs have to be balanced against the
benefits. For example, if a complete lockdown every winter were shown
conclusively to prevent all flu, I would still be against it.
Radey, that was bull**** spread around by the Lame Stream Media. Several strains of flu can occur in a year. They usually don't because 98% of mutations are harmless. but it is possible.

On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 16:01:23 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 23:16:37 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:52:32 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:28:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/19/2021 11:18 PM, John B. wrote:

On a personal basis I really can't see what the furor is about. Over
here you are required to wear a mask in a public place - store,
office, etc. and everybody just does it. No leaping up and down,
waving of arms and shouting, "I don't wanna do that". In fact we have
been having some Student protests about the government and even those
protesting are wear masks :-)

Well, I think many right wingers are timid and delicate. They fear that
wearing a mask may decrease their blood oxygen content by a percent, and
they quiver in fear.

More honestly, right wingers jump on even the least plausible
justification for their political posturing.

A very good friend of mine works as a civilian at a naval base.
Supposedly the commander said certain recreation facilities will not be
allowed to open until 80% of sailors are vaccinated. But many are still
refusing.

My guy said it's nuts. He says it's normal for them to be subjected to
mandatory vaccination for other maladies before shipping out, and
there's never any objection.
....
But like every other aspect of COVID, right wing politics trumps both
science and reasonable past practice.

I had been in the Service for more then ten years when I was sent to
Vietnam and had, of course, had shots every year for my whole time in
the service. But as preparation to my sojourn in South East Asia I got
shots on both arms and one "big one" in the butt. After I got my shirt
on and my pants pulled up the ,Medic says, "you aren't going anywhere
for the next few days are you?" And I say "Hows come?". And he says
well, after you get the plague shot (the big one in the arse) we like
you to stay around for a few days", and I say, "you mean some people
get the plague from the shot?", and he don't say nothing.

A little more seriously, I don't know about now but when I was in the
Air Force there was a regulation that you could not refuse any medical
or dental treatment that the doctor prescribed for your health.

Were you ever ordered to take any medical treatments that were not FDA
approved?

I have no idea whether any treatment that was administered to me was
approved by the FDA or not. However I had a guy working for me (in the
U.S.A.F.) who was ordered to have all his teeth pulled. When he argued
that "you can't pull my teeth" he was shown a U.S.A.F. regulation that
stated that failure to accept any medical procedure that was
prescribed by a doctor was punishable by court martial.

I would give pretty good odds that all of the medical treatment you were
ordered to receive had been approved by the FDA, or whatever the
relevant organization was at the time. I suspect that the reason
current US military personnel are merely asked to volunteer for a covid
shot is that it is an experimental treatment, and it would look bad if
it later turned out to have undue side effects.

As I said, I have no idea but back in the early 1950's we used to get
an annual "flu shot" and I remember one year it made so many people
sick that they had to cancel flying for several days as there was no
one available to work on the flight line. Memory is often fallible but
I don't remember having a flu shot after that episode.

It does seem that all three covid shots are associated with some
elevated risk of cerebral blood clots. This does not mean that those at
a high risk of serious illness should avoid the shots, but almost all
those in the military are at an age where they are not at such risk, and
avoiding the vaccine just might be a rational choice.

Plus, didn't the Air Force teach you to think twice when asked to
volunteer for *anything*?

Nope, the rule of thumb was "never volunteer". If they want you they
will come and get you :-)

There you go, why would you expect any different from this generation?

I think you missed the target. My point was that when I was in the
Service shots were not optional.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 16:05:19 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Rolf Mantel writes:

Am 21.04.2021 um 22:44 schrieb Radey Shouman:

Essentially you're telling me that I really should wear a
St. Christopher medal, because it's easier on the pocket than a rabbit's
foot, less likely to smell bad, and won't offend vegans, while
completely begging the question of how either one does any good at all.

Funnily enough, this St Christopher's medal (or something else) has
all but stalled the flu season world-wide; there is no "flu season"
2020/21 to speak of in Europe or the USA.
https://www.today.com/health/flu-season-2020-2021-flu-activity-historic-lows-mask-wearing-t207131

It's not clear that there would have been without it. One respiratory
virus tends to win every year, and largely replace the others. For
example, one flu strain tends to be dominant.

But I take your point that precautions against covid might well have
protected many people against flu. I'm not saying we should not take
any precautions, just that the costs have to be balanced against the
benefits. For example, if a complete lockdown every winter were shown
conclusively to prevent all flu, I would still be against it.

Incidentally I did ask my cardiologist whether the masks had any
effect on the annual cold/flu here and he said that there had been
"almost no respiratory illnesses" since masks had become almost
universally worn here.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. writes:

On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 16:01:23 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 23:16:37 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:52:32 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:28:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/19/2021 11:18 PM, John B. wrote:

On a personal basis I really can't see what the furor is about. Over
here you are required to wear a mask in a public place - store,
office, etc. and everybody just does it. No leaping up and down,
waving of arms and shouting, "I don't wanna do that". In fact we have
been having some Student protests about the government and even those
protesting are wear masks :-)

Well, I think many right wingers are timid and delicate. They fear that
wearing a mask may decrease their blood oxygen content by a percent, and
they quiver in fear.

More honestly, right wingers jump on even the least plausible
justification for their political posturing.

A very good friend of mine works as a civilian at a naval base.
Supposedly the commander said certain recreation facilities will not be
allowed to open until 80% of sailors are vaccinated. But many are still
refusing.

My guy said it's nuts. He says it's normal for them to be subjected to
mandatory vaccination for other maladies before shipping out, and
there's never any objection.
....
But like every other aspect of COVID, right wing politics trumps both
science and reasonable past practice.

I had been in the Service for more then ten years when I was sent to
Vietnam and had, of course, had shots every year for my whole time in
the service. But as preparation to my sojourn in South East Asia I got
shots on both arms and one "big one" in the butt. After I got my shirt
on and my pants pulled up the ,Medic says, "you aren't going anywhere
for the next few days are you?" And I say "Hows come?". And he says
well, after you get the plague shot (the big one in the arse) we like
you to stay around for a few days", and I say, "you mean some people
get the plague from the shot?", and he don't say nothing.

A little more seriously, I don't know about now but when I was in the
Air Force there was a regulation that you could not refuse any medical
or dental treatment that the doctor prescribed for your health.

Were you ever ordered to take any medical treatments that were not FDA
approved?

I have no idea whether any treatment that was administered to me was
approved by the FDA or not. However I had a guy working for me (in the
U.S.A.F.) who was ordered to have all his teeth pulled. When he argued
that "you can't pull my teeth" he was shown a U.S.A.F. regulation that
stated that failure to accept any medical procedure that was
prescribed by a doctor was punishable by court martial.

I would give pretty good odds that all of the medical treatment you were
ordered to receive had been approved by the FDA, or whatever the
relevant organization was at the time. I suspect that the reason
current US military personnel are merely asked to volunteer for a covid
shot is that it is an experimental treatment, and it would look bad if
it later turned out to have undue side effects.

As I said, I have no idea but back in the early 1950's we used to get
an annual "flu shot" and I remember one year it made so many people
sick that they had to cancel flying for several days as there was no
one available to work on the flight line. Memory is often fallible but
I don't remember having a flu shot after that episode.

It does seem that all three covid shots are associated with some
elevated risk of cerebral blood clots. This does not mean that those at
a high risk of serious illness should avoid the shots, but almost all
those in the military are at an age where they are not at such risk, and
avoiding the vaccine just might be a rational choice.

Plus, didn't the Air Force teach you to think twice when asked to
volunteer for *anything*?

Nope, the rule of thumb was "never volunteer". If they want you they
will come and get you :-)

There you go, why would you expect any different from this generation?

I think you missed the target. My point was that when I was in the
Service shots were not optional.

My point was that when you were in the service, as you said, the rule of
thumb was "never volunteer". I can't see any reason why there should be
an exception for mysteriously voluntary shots.

Tom Kunich writes:

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 1:05:22 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
Rolf Mantel writes:

Am 21.04.2021 um 22:44 schrieb Radey Shouman:

Essentially you're telling me that I really should wear a
St. Christopher medal, because it's easier on the pocket than a rabbit's
foot, less likely to smell bad, and won't offend vegans, while
completely begging the question of how either one does any good at all.

Funnily enough, this St Christopher's medal (or something else) has
all but stalled the flu season world-wide; there is no "flu season"
2020/21 to speak of in Europe or the USA.
https://www.today.com/health/flu-season-2020-2021-flu-activity-historic-lows-mask-wearing-t207131
It's not clear that there would have been without it. One respiratory
virus tends to win every year, and largely replace the others. For
example, one flu strain tends to be dominant.

But I take your point that precautions against covid might well have
protected many people against flu. I'm not saying we should not take
any precautions, just that the costs have to be balanced against the
benefits. For example, if a complete lockdown every winter were shown
conclusively to prevent all flu, I would still be against it.
Radey, that was bull**** spread around by the Lame Stream
Media. Several strains of flu can occur in a year. They usually don't
because 98% of mutations are harmless. but it is possible.

There are almost always several strains, but one of them tends to
dominate. Otherwise flu shots wouldn't be useful at all.