flat bars vs drops (again)

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 01:36:19 GMT, Jose Rizal wrote:
Rick Onanian:
Oh yes, I remember this argument from other threads. It's the
"every cyclist is the same and has the same needs even when they
have a different environment and different purposes for riding"
argument.

That'll be funny if you didn't really believe it, but I suspect you do.
The argument that you propound, that touring/road cyclists (implicitly
referring to Western style road cycling, by your posts) have unique

Indeed, since Western style road cycling is where drop bars are most
common, I expect that's what we should implicitly and explicitly
refer to.

requirements, such that they alone use dropbars with utter comfort, is

Where do I make such an argument?
Here's what I've said in another message in this thread:
:Utility cyclist != recreational cyclist.
:You != me.
:You != everybody.
:Me != everybody.
:Hence, we have choices rather than all the same. For example, you
:can ride flat bars, or something like this:
:http://www.performancebike.com/shop/....cfm?SKU=16251
r this:
:http://www.cbike.com/images/cin_ram.jpg

That's the closest I can find to what you think I said, and it's not
even close.

nonsense. It's not difficult to obtain a simile of a dropbar in other

People everywhere are lazy and ride what comes on the bike (and buy
the more common bikes more commonly).

countries. The usage that tourers make of their bikes are quite similar
to utility cyclists; the two groups carry reasonable loads, travel
similar distances, encounter similar roads. Why is it that most utility
cyclists anywhere in the world don't use dropbars.

Strange, last I heard, tourers go very long distances, while utility
cyclists in other countries do not go long distances. What makes
you think that the roads are similar? And wouldn't you think that
priorities and goals are different?

Are you saying that the bars used by those utility cyclists are the
best choice for tourers too? How about the rest of the bike? Are
tourers best served by this:
http://www.giant-bicycles.com/images...ycity_copy.jpg
??
Or this:
http://www.giant-bicycles.com/images...ay123_copy.jpg

Or is it just handlebars that should be one-shape-fits-all?

Hence, we have choices rather than all the same.

Exactly, so why don't you consider this pronouncement of yours next time
you carry on about the superiority of the dropbar?

All I've done is defend the drop bar as a viable option. You have
insinuated that the drop bar is no good for anybody and should be
extinct; you seem to believe that you know what is good for
everybody, and that the choice of drop bars should not be available.
Is there anywhere that I've said that drop bars are superior for
anybody other than myself (and others who enjoy them)? You, on the
other hand, have insisted that they're terrible, even when people
tell you just how good they are for themselves.

From another message:
David Damerell:
I would claim that the drop bar is by and large good enough;

Agreed.

So now you agree that drop bars are good enough? Before, they were
"barely adequate", and their design "inherently flawed".

and that it will not be easily improved upon.

Maybe.

You appeared to believe that they _would_ be easily improved upon,
before.

From yet another message:
Nonsense. Riding a bike takes getting used to, riding a particular
bicycle type takes getting used to, and riding any bike for prolonged
periods takes getting used to. Are you saying that you were born to
ride dropbars? People get used to it and become comfortable. Same

Robert Strickland:
It took no more getting used to than any
other aspect of riding and certainly less than clipless pedals.

Now you're just exaggerating. See above.

Why do you think he's exaggerating? I was able to use drop bars
quite well the first time I tried them, and became proficient after
a few hours. It took no less than a month before I was proficient
with clipless pedals. I suspect that Robert's experience is similar.
If you've had trouble becoming proficient with drop bars, then maybe
they're not right for you; but to say that others couldn't possibly
have become proficient with them easily is talking out of your ass.

you're at it, why don't you also state how custom plays a part in the
shape of one's bicycle handlebar,

You alluded to it:
Of course. Come up with a design and patent it; be prepared to be
shunned by the road racing crowd though, if your design doesn't look
"fast", isn't "aero", doesn't reduce weight, not made of composite or
exotic material, or if it offers too much comfort.

So, in your writing, the custom of how it looks plays a part in the
shape of one's bicycle handlebar.
--
Rick Onanian

"Jose Rizal"wrote ;
Why is it that most utility
cyclists anywhere in the world don't use dropbars.

The main reason is "Price"!!! When I was in Korea, four years ago, most of
the better muliti-speed bikes had drop bars. There really isn't much reason
for drops on a low gear single speed utility bike use to ride a couple of
miles back and forth to work or the store.

Rod Raisanen
Chillicothe, Oh

Rod Raisanen
Chillicothe, Oh

"Jose Rizal" wrote in message
nk.net...


I have cut through your exaggerations and shown that you are basically
arguing for the sake of it.


Pot/Kettle?

You're in too deep now, aren't you?

Ed Chait

Hey Jose, you previously questioned that drop bars could possibly provide
four useful positions. I mentioned the usual four, and left out several
others that I use in between those four.

In this, you demontrate a basic lack of experience and understanding of the
very subject you are discussing.

If you were familiar with drop bars, I might be able to better accept your
"lone voice in the wilderness" proclamations, but as it stands, you just
seem to be trying to save face.

Ed Chait

Jose Rizal wrote:
Why do you insist that the only way that anyone could find drop bars
comfortable to use is by "getting used to it"? Perhaps that was your
experience, but it was not mine.

Nonsense. Riding a bike takes getting used to, riding a particular
bicycle type takes getting used to, and riding any bike for prolonged
periods takes getting used to. Are you saying that you were born to
ride dropbars? People get used to it and become comfortable. Same
thing happens with flat bars, but the comfort level there is achieved
faster. If you claim that flat bars are unsuited to you for long
rides, fine, but to say that dropbars didn't take any getting used to
is simply childish exaggeration.

Who's talking nonsense here? I readily admitted that riding a bike takes
getting used to. I submit, however, that for myself using drop bars and road
brake levers took less getting used to than learning to balance as a child,
learning to shift gears efficiently, and getting used to clipless pedals. In
other words, there was no problem to be solved for me (and I suspect many
others) regarding drop bars.

It took no more getting used to than any
other aspect of riding and certainly less than clipless pedals.

Now you're just exaggerating. See above.

You're starting to look silly now. Many people have discussed the difficulty
of getting used to clipless pedals and I can speak authoritatively about my
case. It's a fact that it took me longer to get used to clipless than it did
for me to get used to drop bars. I don't know how you're so well positioned
to judge my experiences better than I am but I'd be interested to hear it.

As stated, I
use the same two fingers to brake with road brake levers that I do
with mtb brake levers so while you may find it hard to believe,
there is in fact no relevant difference.

Don't change the issue to suit your argument. The issue was the
difference in hand/finger positions in operating brake levers with
dropbars and straight bars, and the difference in effort required. To
state that there is no difference is "delusional", or perhaps you just
don't use flat bars.

I didn't change the issue, you did. You asserted that road bike levers force
one to use his/her ring and pinky finger for braking and I counter-asserted
that in at least one case (and others have concurrred) that you are dead
wrong. You're the one changing the argument to one of 'effort required'.

Apparently in your world, "road bikers" are mainly recreational
riders in Western countries who agree that the dropbar is the
ultimate in handlebar design. Look at utility cyclists all over
the world and try to justify your viewpoint based on what these
others are using.

I've never claimed anything about "road bikers" as it relates to
Western countries or the rest of the world. I've simply refuted your
claims about what I had to "get used to" in order to use road brake
levers.

No you didn't; you mentioned "majority" of road bikers. Your
ethnocentricity is showing.

Now you're just hoping to lose everyone in word games. I mentioned road
bikers, which for me means people who ride road bikes with drop bars and
road brake levers. I wasn't talking about utility bike riders in other
countries as they don't use drop bars. I wasn't being ethnocentric (and I
take your remark personally), I was being road bike centric. You'd like to
make the claim that the mere fact that many people elsewhere in the world
ride utility bikes with non-drop bars (note: most don't use mtb bars either)
somehow substantiates your ridiculous claims about drop bars. Of course you
conveniently ignore the fact that there are other contributing factors to
their choice of bike and bar.

Your
experience may have been different but your claims about my
experience are simply an expression of your own dogma.

Or your own exaggerated claims.

Now you don't even make logical sense. How can your claims about my
experience be expressions of my exaggerated claims (which by the way weren't
exaggerated).

The simple fact that many people in
other parts of the world ride bikes without drop bars shows nothing
about their comfort. Availability, custom and intended use are a few
factors that would play at least as important a role.

Ah, now you really show your ignorance. Tell me about availability of
simply-formed pieces of steel tubing in other parts of the world.
While you're at it, why don't you also state how custom plays a part
in the shape of one's bicycle handlebar, and tell me also about
intended use of utility cyclists who ride and haul cargo on bicycles
all day.

So you're claiming that drop bars are as available and affordable as
utility bike handlebars everywhere in the world, that different cultures
don't have different preferences when it comes to the style of bicycle they
tend to ride, and that the intended purpose of a bike doesn't have any
effect on the choice of handlebars. Wow, who's the ignorant one here? I
suspect those who get around by bicycle in out-of-the-way places in Asia
would be surprised to hear you suggest that they can pick up a set of shiny
new drop bars for a reasonable price right around the corner. Or that the
Dutch would be surprised to find out from you that the traditional shape of
the Hollander bike (note: they don't use mtb bars) was not a development of
culture despite the fact that the bike is so identified with Dutch culture
that it's called the Hollander. Or maybe utility bike users the world over
would agree with you that the fact that they tend to travel short distances,
with lots of gear and are unconcerned with aerodynamics plays no role
whatsoever in their choice of bike design.

I didn't mention delusion; don't be too defensive.

You imply that we're deluded when you claim that our stated
preference for drop bars are, unbeknownst to us, actually the
result of having "gotten used to" something.

Fair enough, "deluded" does apply to you. I don't think others are
though, even though "they" have gotten used to something, same as
everyone else.

And how, precisely, am I deluded about my own experiences regarding mtb and
drop bars. In what relevant way are your judgements about my experience more
accurate than my own? Of course we've gotten used to something but you make
that sound as if it's some critical hurdle to overcome where drop bars are
concerned. I would maintain that you're criteria of "getting used to
something" is a smokescreen because it plays no role. Getting used to drop
bars was in my case a non-issue.

How is it that you understand our needs and experiences
better than we do.

I have cut through your exaggerations and shown that you are basically
arguing for the sake of it.

No you didn't (because I wasn't exaggerating anything) and no I'm not. I'm
arguing that your claims about the supposed problems of drop bars are the
exaggeration here (as have a number of others). You're doing everything you
can to defend your smug and empty claim that our preference for drop bars
stems from a stubborn refusal to accept that we've simply 'gotten used to
them' but that mtb bars are better. Your argument has failed because it's
not an argument, it's a preference.

Rob Strickland

Jose Rizal wrote:
Robert Strickland:
Only because you have gotten used to it.
Says you. I never found it awkward, even from the beginning. Why is it that
you're more of an expert regarding what I find awkward and what I don't than
I am?
Because unless you trained for using dropbars in your mother's womb, you
(and anyone else) will have had to have gotten used to it.

Maybe he found them convenient from the very beginning, like he says.

In that case he has only had to get used to it in the sense that one must
equally get used to any bar design.

As I stated already, that's exactly what I already do. I don't use my ring
or pinky finger while braking..
But to say that the effort you exert to operate the lever from the hoods
is the same as from a flatbar is nonsense.

The difference in effort might not be (isn't, IMO) significant - just as
it's more work for me to scratch my nose with a more upright riding
position because I must move my arm upwards, but that's hardly an argument
against such a position.
--
David Damerell flcl?

Jose Rizal wrote:
Robert Strickland:
Why do you insist that the only way that anyone could find drop bars
comfortable to use is by "getting used to it"? Perhaps that was your
experience, but it was not mine.
periods takes getting used to. Are you saying that you were born to
ride dropbars? People get used to it and become comfortable. Same
thing happens with flat bars, but the comfort level there is achieved
faster.

Of course what Mr. Strickland is saying is that that is not his
experience. It's not mine, either; I've ridden flat bars on borrowed bikes
for quite a while, and I find them very uncomfortable.

shape of one's bicycle handlebar, and tell me also about intended use of
utility cyclists who ride and haul cargo on bicycles all day.

You seem to have quietly ignored the points that utility cyclists do not
typically ride flat bars, and that they ride in a very upright position
which clearly might be suited to a different bar type.
--
David Damerell flcl?

Jose Rizal wrote:
David Damerell:
Jose Rizal wrote:
The difference seems to be that it causes wrist pain if ridden for any
length of time. If you don't get that, it's probably because you're used
to it.
If you're saying that using a flat bar causes you wrist pain on long
rides, then that's fair; but are you seriously saying that operating the
brake lever on a straight bar cause you wrist pain?

I don't know. The wrist pain does not come neatly labelled "hand position"
or "operating the brakes", so it is not clear what causes it.

Apparently in your world, "road bikers" are mainly recreational riders
in Western countries who agree that the dropbar is the ultimate in
handlebar design.
I don't think anyone is claiming that.
Then you haven't read many of the posts.

I've read them all. I'd be intrigued to hear you quote anything that
claims that the drop bar is unimprovable.

and that's it's superior to the flat bar;
Debatable.

I should have said "for the type of use I put bicycles to."

and that it will not be easily improved upon.
Maybe.

Maybe, nothing. The drop handlebar has been in use for decades, and
throughout that time people have tried to think of ingenious handlebar
designs.

Indeed, one might wonder why the drop bar was so widely adopted when
introduced.

Evidently with an upright posture the wrist issues with flat bars are not
so great (and, indeed, most of these people do not use straight-across
flat bars, but bars that curve towards the rider.)
So what did you state about the superiority of dropbars?

Well, I explained that. I would not be surprised if for upright cyclists,
the typical curved bar shape (which of course is nothing like the flat bar
popular on mountain bikes) is effective.
--
David Damerell flcl?

Jose Rizal wrote:
nonsense. It's not difficult to obtain a simile of a dropbar in other
countries. The usage that tourers make of their bikes are quite similar
to utility cyclists; the two groups carry reasonable loads, travel
similar distances, encounter similar roads. Why is it that most utility
cyclists anywhere in the world don't use dropbars.

This is not true. Firstly, utility cyclists are typically upright. They
will tend to travel at slower speeds, not least because of the aerodynamic
penalty. They carry a much wider range of loads, from the laptop case of
the German businessman to forty hens in a box in China (of course, here
we're starting to realise that "utility cyclists" are not a single
category). They certainly do not travel similar distances; a casual
transportational cyclist will blanch at long distances, and someone who
uses a cargo bike as an adjunct to their job can hardly spend all day
cycling.
--
David Damerell flcl?