What is facing a frame

Hi Pete, I followed the other thread about this dilemma of yours (no
pun intended) and I'm thinking that you're not going to have success no
matter what.

I assuming that this was a new Record BB you had gotten, so it did come
with some guidlines on installation. If memory serves me correctly,
both cups need to be tightened to something like 50 ft lbs. Surely in
your case, this just ain't gonna work.

As Peter mentioned earlier, he's seen Merlin Frames that have been
problematic, and you've evidently gotten one of these. By deviating
from proper installation with homemade fixes/bandages, it's doubtful
that this will ever work correctly.

It sounds to me, that even if you hypothetically had used a Phil Wood
BB, which doesn't have a Flanged Cup either side, and wouldn't require
the frame being faced at all, you'd still have the same set of
circumstances I'm sure of binding.

Evidently, the Frame's Bottom bracket Shell has not been correctly
threaded from the factory, in that the BB is canted within the frame
causing this bind.

If the frame had been bought brand new, I definitely would've returned
this frame to the dealer, and let them inspect this. They'll know
quixkly enough whether the frame was not properly made. Provided no
cross threading has occured to shell, (They'll know this) I don't see
why they would be reluctant to replace this frame, and go to bat with
the manufacturer for you.

Had the Record Bottom Bracket been bought used (or even if not) I
would've also carefully inspected the spindle insuring too, that it
wasn't in some way bent/damaged.

A few months back, I myself installed a 2004 Record BB to an NOS Schwinn
50th Paramount Frame (I understand the BB shell is a Takahashi on these)
and I myself didn't face the right side frame shell, and installation of
the BB went perfectly. I saw no need of facing the right side. Hope
all works out for you, Mark

John Dacey wrote:
Apart from the material from which the center sleeve is made, Record
road spindles are also different from those found in the Chorus model.
Campagnolo literature describes the Record spindle as "oversize", a
feature missing from Chorus whose spindles are a constant diameter in
the area between the left and right bearings. See a 102 mm Record
spindle swollen with pride he

http://www.businesscycles.com/graphics/record102bb.jpg

Is that also true of the Triple version?

~PB

A Muzi wrote:
Those product groups are very very different.
Record and Chorus vary only in the carbon outer cover.
Inside they both have premium quality double bearing on the
right side and a forged spindle. The left bearing is an SKF
61903- -same as a Phil Wood. All Campagnolo BB bearings are
well lubricated as delivered.

The AC-S/AC-H (S=solid, H=hollow otherwise same part) is
nicer than other inexpensive BBs in that it has a true
bearing (in some other brands the steel case is actually the
outer bearing race). The spindle is formed in one
operation. Record/Chorus spindle are crisply machined from
a forged blank.

AC-S and AC-H are made in 111 and 115. Record and Chorus
are 102 with a _asymmetric_ 111 triple option.

Interesting fact for those considering upgrading from lower models:
Chainline of Chrorus/Record Triple crankset (with 111 asymmetric BB) is
1.5 mm further out than Centaur/Veloce/Mirage's with 111mm symmetric BB.

Record/Chorus are very sensitive to threading and facing
errors. Moreso than other units.

And Ti frames often exhibit that problem. Their BB and head
tubes are machined properly but warp during welding.

I guess that's what's happened to mine.

Thanks for the notes.

~PB

Mark D wrote:
Hi Pete, I followed the other thread about this dilemma of yours (no
pun intended) and I'm thinking that you're not going to have success
no matter what.

I assuming that this was a new Record BB you had gotten,

That's right.

so it did
come with some guidlines on installation.

Yes and I've followed them, except I'm using even less torque than they
advise.......

Campagnolo say: "If you should notice an increase in axle pin
rotation friction, the bb cage may be deformed or the supports are no
longer axial... ...Apply threadlock, then retighten to...22 lb ft."

If memory serves me
correctly, both cups need to be tightened to something like 50 ft
lbs. Surely in your case, this just ain't gonna work.

Well remembered (it's 70 Nm or 51.6 ft lbs). Agreed, it ain't gonna work
at 50 ft lbs without chronic binding, but hopefully that tightness won't
be necessary.

As Peter mentioned earlier, he's seen Merlin Frames that have been
problematic, and you've evidently gotten one of these.

No, mine is a Raleigh Special Products Timet (UK). It was NOS (one of the
last of Raleigh's British-handbuilt jobs, probably been hanging around in
the warehouse for a few years), and the last the dealer had in the size.
I got a great deal and I'm otherwise happy with the frame. It was better
than anything else I could afford and frames of exactly this shape and
size aren't as common as I would like.

I've already been using it for a couple of years. Previous BB was a
Centaur, which had the same problem, though to a lesser extent. I thought
the shell faces were to blame.

Since it may wear out prematurely (if I end up having to have it tighter),
I was silly for getting a Record BB instead of a Chorus, and perhaps silly
to upgrade from Veloce cranks & Centaur BB in the first place. But
nevermind, I have more important things in life to worry about right now
:-)

There are still a few things to try, and I can always go back to using the
previous components, if it comes it that. Centaur BBs are not expensive
to replace.

Thanks for your thoughts.

cheers
~PB

Ken wrote in message ...
Me wrote in :
Hi, a quick one. I read with interest the post about facing a frame a
few days ago. What exactly is facing a frame? I know what chasing the
threads in a bb but can someone give me a simple definition?

Facing is shaving the outer edges of the bottom bracket to make them
perfectly parallel before you install the bearing cups. Same goes for the
head tube before you install the headset. This kind of work is less
important now than in the past.


I thought that it meant to stand in front of it and look straight at it.

Andres

andres muro wrote:
Ken wrote in message
...
Me wrote in :
Hi, a quick one. I read with interest the post about facing a frame
a few days ago. What exactly is facing a frame? I know what chasing
the threads in a bb but can someone give me a simple definition?

Facing is shaving the outer edges of the bottom bracket to make them
perfectly parallel before you install the bearing cups. Same goes
for the head tube before you install the headset. This kind of work
is less important now than in the past.


I thought that it meant to stand in front of it and look straight at
it.

Beat you to it by ~25 hours.

(And a bit better, IIDSSM.)

--
BS (no, really)

"B i l l S o r n s o n" wrote in message . ..
andres muro wrote:
Ken wrote in message
...
Me wrote in :
Hi, a quick one. I read with interest the post about facing a frame
a few days ago. What exactly is facing a frame? I know what chasing
the threads in a bb but can someone give me a simple definition?


Facing is shaving the outer edges of the bottom bracket to make them
perfectly parallel before you install the bearing cups. Same goes
for the head tube before you install the headset. This kind of work
is less important now than in the past.


I thought that it meant to stand in front of it and look straight at
it.

Beat you to it by ~25 hours.

(And a bit better, IIDSSM.)

OOOHPS! you're right. i'm slow on the uptake

Since it may wear out prematurely (if I end up having to have it
tighter), I was silly for getting a Record BB instead of a Chorus, and
perhaps silly to upgrade from Veloce cranks & Centaur BB in the first
place. But nevermind, I have more important things in life to worry
about right now
:-)
There are still a few things to try, and I can always go back to using
the previous components, if it comes it that. Centaur BBs are not
expensive to replace.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed Pete, I understand.

I have the Campy Veloce Crank on my Bianchi Campione, and I believe the
BB on the Bianchi is the AC-H model.

The only differences I call see between the Record, and Chorus BB is the
weight, and the price. Otherwise, they're virtually the same in
construction (Carbon shell vs Alu Shell)

You can always save the Record BB for another build up if need be. Mark

Me wrote:
Hi, a quick one. I read with interest the post about facing a frame a

few days ago. What exactly is facing a frame? I know what chasing the

threads in a bb but can someone give me a simple definition?

Facing is something that people who can't afford Phil Wood bottom
brackets have to do to their frames.

Regards,

Suzy

Pete Biggs:
Since it may wear out prematurely (if I end up having to have it
tighter), I was silly for getting a Record BB instead of a Chorus, and
perhaps silly to upgrade from Veloce cranks & Centaur BB in the first
place. But nevermind, I have more important things in life to worry
about right now
There are still a few things to try, and I can always go back to using
the previous components, if it comes it that. Centaur BBs are not
expensive to replace.

Mark D wrote:
Agreed Pete, I understand.
I have the Campy Veloce Crank on my Bianchi Campione, and I believe the
BB on the Bianchi is the AC-H model.
The only differences I call see between the Record, and Chorus BB is the
weight, and the price. Otherwise, they're virtually the same in
construction (Carbon shell vs Alu Shell)
You can always save the Record BB for another build up if need be. Mark

Those product groups are very very different.
Record and Chorus vary only in the carbon outer cover.
Inside they both have premium quality double bearing on the
right side and a forged spindle. The left bearing is an SKF
61903- -same as a Phil Wood. All Campagnolo BB bearings are
well lubricated as delivered.

The AC-S/AC-H (S=solid, H=hollow otherwise same part) is
nicer than other inexpensive BBs in that it has a true
bearing (in some other brands the steel case is actually the
outer bearing race). The spindle is formed in one
operation. Record/Chorus spindle are crisply machined from
a forged blank.

AC-S and AC-H are made in 111 and 115. Record and Chorus
are 102 with a _asymmetric_ 111 triple option.

Record/Chorus are very sensitive to threading and facing
errors. Moreso than other units.

And Ti frames often exhibit that problem. Their BB and head
tubes are machined properly but warp during welding.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971