Zefal Deluxe LED Light, 180 Lumens, Spot/Flood Zoom, Two-Axis Mount.$21.96, includes tail light.

On 2015-03-10 10:21 AM, sms wrote:
On 3/10/2015 9:17 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 10 Mar 2015 08:07:50 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

If someone built a chain-on-the-bike ultrasonic cleaner that would be a
great product. Where you'd have a cleaning solution but no whirling of
little brushes and grime would sink to the bottom.

You need immersion in a water based suds bath for an ultrasonic
cleaner to produce the necessary cavitation. Should you actually
succeed in producing exploding bubbles along the chain bushing
surfaces, you also need some method of replacing the lost lubricant on
the bushing surface. In other words, this ain't gonna work.

That's not true. While most commonly used lubricants for bicycle chains
won't get onto the bushing surface, there are lubricants specifically
designed for this, not surprisingly specified as "chain drive pin and
bushing lubricant." But these lubricants don't come in tiny $10 bottles
with cute names, hence they are not widely used.

Recreational chain maintenance is a popular pastime and a big business.
The fact that the chain is neither properly cleaned nor properly
lubricated is of little concern to anyone involved.

I think that a business that repackaged large $8 containers of proper
chain lube into multiple small $10 containers with a name like _Coffee
Flavored Pin & Bushing Butter_ would be spectacularly successful.


In the end it always boils down to a simple fact: How long after
applying [name your lube here] does the chain begin to make ghastly
noises again?

This is how I found out that (so far) Epic Ride works best for me. On
the road bike it didn't really matter but it sure does on the MTB. For
simplicity I now use it on both.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 10/03/2015 2:31 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-03-10 10:02 AM, Duane wrote:
On 10/03/2015 12:54 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-03-10 8:32 AM, Duane wrote:
On 10/03/2015 11:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-03-09 4:54 PM, sms wrote:
On 3/9/2015 11:58 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

I don't use any solvent but clean it mechanically. Knife, watchmaker
screwdriver's blade, toothbrush and cloth. A good cleaning can take
20-30 minutes but then the chain is really shiny.

Who cares if the outside is shiny?

When I clean a chain, first I clean the outside and get the major
dirt
off with a brush. Then, it looks nice and clean and shiny. But it's
not
clean. I then run it through solvent (kerosene) on a Park chain
cleaning
tool. Since the pins and rollers are in motion as they go through the
solvent the dirt on the inside is flushed out. It takes several
solvent
changes before the chain runs clean.

Again, quoting Sheldon Brown: "The on-the-bike system has the
advantage
that the cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the rollers.
This
scrubbing action may do a better job of cleaning the innards." People
complain that it's messy but it's just fine if you rotate the chain
slowly. The hassle is that you have to repeatedly open the machine
and
discard the used solvent and wipe out any dirt in the bottom.


I know this method but there are very mixed opinions about the true
benefits and whether it really prolongs chain life. I don't like it
because of the large amount of environmentally problematic waste.


I use a Park chain cleaning tool but with a biodegradable degreaser. I
imagine that it doesn't work as well as kerosene or varsol etc. but it
works well enough. And I don't have to worry about finding a place of
disposing of it.


Where do you dispose of it? It contains oil residue from the chain and
at least in my neck of the woods that needs to go to a hazardous waste
collection place.



Finish Line Dry is supposedly biodegradable.

http://www.finishlineusa.com/Green/


Before believing it I'd like to see the ingredients, for example whether
they still use Teflon in it which would IMHO not be so friendly. Doesn't
say on the product page.

http://www.finishlineusa.com/product...cants/wet-lube


I don't use the wet one. As for the dry one, I imagine that they still
use teflon to some extent. But isn't Teflon biologically inert?


It probably does make any grit inside the works very shiny and clean
:-)


The other option is an ultrasonic cleaner. This probably works as
well
as a chain cleaning machine but you have to remove the chain. Bike
shops
really hate removing chains nowadays because chains are much thinner
and
made to tighter tolerances. A guy I know that used to work at a shop
used a chain cleaning machine that was hooked up with hoses to a
solvent
supply. The solvent was pumped through as the chain was rotated
through.
This was an extremely fast and effective way of cleaning chains. The
solvent was filtered and re-used.


If someone built a chain-on-the-bike ultrasonic cleaner that would
be a
great product. Where you'd have a cleaning solution but no whirling of
little brushes and grime would sink to the bottom.


If it cost similar to the mechanical chain cleaning tool...


Technically that wouldn't be very difficult to do but you have to
compare it to a quality chain bath tool, not some flimsy plastic version
that only lasts maybe 2-3 years. Or at least consider the lifetime cost.
An ultrasonic bath tool won't wear out.


I've had my flimsy plastic Park chain cleaning tool for nearly 20 years.


How often do you use it?

Whenever I need to clean my chain. Probably a lot less than you given
your type of riding. I guess once a month when it's dry out.

On 2015-03-10 11:47 AM, Duane wrote:
On 10/03/2015 2:31 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-03-10 10:02 AM, Duane wrote:
On 10/03/2015 12:54 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-03-10 8:32 AM, Duane wrote:
On 10/03/2015 11:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-03-09 4:54 PM, sms wrote:
On 3/9/2015 11:58 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

I don't use any solvent but clean it mechanically. Knife,
watchmaker
screwdriver's blade, toothbrush and cloth. A good cleaning can take
20-30 minutes but then the chain is really shiny.

Who cares if the outside is shiny?

When I clean a chain, first I clean the outside and get the major
dirt
off with a brush. Then, it looks nice and clean and shiny. But it's
not
clean. I then run it through solvent (kerosene) on a Park chain
cleaning
tool. Since the pins and rollers are in motion as they go through
the
solvent the dirt on the inside is flushed out. It takes several
solvent
changes before the chain runs clean.

Again, quoting Sheldon Brown: "The on-the-bike system has the
advantage
that the cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the rollers.
This
scrubbing action may do a better job of cleaning the innards."
People
complain that it's messy but it's just fine if you rotate the chain
slowly. The hassle is that you have to repeatedly open the machine
and
discard the used solvent and wipe out any dirt in the bottom.


I know this method but there are very mixed opinions about the true
benefits and whether it really prolongs chain life. I don't like it
because of the large amount of environmentally problematic waste.


I use a Park chain cleaning tool but with a biodegradable
degreaser. I
imagine that it doesn't work as well as kerosene or varsol etc. but it
works well enough. And I don't have to worry about finding a place of
disposing of it.


Where do you dispose of it? It contains oil residue from the chain and
at least in my neck of the woods that needs to go to a hazardous waste
collection place.



Finish Line Dry is supposedly biodegradable.

http://www.finishlineusa.com/Green/


Before believing it I'd like to see the ingredients, for example whether
they still use Teflon in it which would IMHO not be so friendly. Doesn't
say on the product page.

http://www.finishlineusa.com/product...cants/wet-lube


I don't use the wet one. As for the dry one, I imagine that they still
use teflon to some extent. But isn't Teflon biologically inert?


AFAIK that is exactly the problem. Once spilled into the environment it
does not biodegrade at all. It can get ingested by animals and make its
way through the food chain.


It probably does make any grit inside the works very shiny and clean
:-)


The other option is an ultrasonic cleaner. This probably works as
well
as a chain cleaning machine but you have to remove the chain. Bike
shops
really hate removing chains nowadays because chains are much thinner
and
made to tighter tolerances. A guy I know that used to work at a shop
used a chain cleaning machine that was hooked up with hoses to a
solvent
supply. The solvent was pumped through as the chain was rotated
through.
This was an extremely fast and effective way of cleaning chains. The
solvent was filtered and re-used.


If someone built a chain-on-the-bike ultrasonic cleaner that would
be a
great product. Where you'd have a cleaning solution but no
whirling of
little brushes and grime would sink to the bottom.


If it cost similar to the mechanical chain cleaning tool...


Technically that wouldn't be very difficult to do but you have to
compare it to a quality chain bath tool, not some flimsy plastic
version
that only lasts maybe 2-3 years. Or at least consider the lifetime
cost.
An ultrasonic bath tool won't wear out.


I've had my flimsy plastic Park chain cleaning tool for nearly 20 years.


How often do you use it?

Whenever I need to clean my chain. Probably a lot less than you given
your type of riding. I guess once a month when it's dry out.


Then I am not surprised. I have to clean the chain on my MTB at least
once a week. The one on the road bike every other week, it also has to
endure some dirt roads. I am not sure if the li'l chain bath device will
stand up to "manzanita mousse", caked horse poop, mashed berries,
thistle chunks and similar gunk sticking on my MTB chain. I lift my bike
onto the work bench for the job. That gets the nose close to the chain
and sometimes it lets off a nasty stench.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 10/03/2015 4:21 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-03-10 11:47 AM, Duane wrote:
On 10/03/2015 2:31 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-03-10 10:02 AM, Duane wrote:
On 10/03/2015 12:54 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-03-10 8:32 AM, Duane wrote:
On 10/03/2015 11:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-03-09 4:54 PM, sms wrote:
On 3/9/2015 11:58 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

I don't use any solvent but clean it mechanically. Knife,
watchmaker
screwdriver's blade, toothbrush and cloth. A good cleaning can
take
20-30 minutes but then the chain is really shiny.

Who cares if the outside is shiny?

When I clean a chain, first I clean the outside and get the major
dirt
off with a brush. Then, it looks nice and clean and shiny. But it's
not
clean. I then run it through solvent (kerosene) on a Park chain
cleaning
tool. Since the pins and rollers are in motion as they go through
the
solvent the dirt on the inside is flushed out. It takes several
solvent
changes before the chain runs clean.

Again, quoting Sheldon Brown: "The on-the-bike system has the
advantage
that the cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the rollers.
This
scrubbing action may do a better job of cleaning the innards."
People
complain that it's messy but it's just fine if you rotate the chain
slowly. The hassle is that you have to repeatedly open the machine
and
discard the used solvent and wipe out any dirt in the bottom.


I know this method but there are very mixed opinions about the true
benefits and whether it really prolongs chain life. I don't like it
because of the large amount of environmentally problematic waste.


I use a Park chain cleaning tool but with a biodegradable
degreaser. I
imagine that it doesn't work as well as kerosene or varsol etc.
but it
works well enough. And I don't have to worry about finding a
place of
disposing of it.


Where do you dispose of it? It contains oil residue from the chain and
at least in my neck of the woods that needs to go to a hazardous waste
collection place.



Finish Line Dry is supposedly biodegradable.

http://www.finishlineusa.com/Green/


Before believing it I'd like to see the ingredients, for example whether
they still use Teflon in it which would IMHO not be so friendly. Doesn't
say on the product page.

http://www.finishlineusa.com/product...cants/wet-lube


I don't use the wet one. As for the dry one, I imagine that they still
use teflon to some extent. But isn't Teflon biologically inert?


AFAIK that is exactly the problem. Once spilled into the environment it
does not biodegrade at all. It can get ingested by animals and make its
way through the food chain.

As far as I know they typically claim "All products use ingredients that
are either non-toxic or biodegradable or both."




It probably does make any grit inside the works very shiny and clean
:-)


The other option is an ultrasonic cleaner. This probably works as
well
as a chain cleaning machine but you have to remove the chain. Bike
shops
really hate removing chains nowadays because chains are much
thinner
and
made to tighter tolerances. A guy I know that used to work at a
shop
used a chain cleaning machine that was hooked up with hoses to a
solvent
supply. The solvent was pumped through as the chain was rotated
through.
This was an extremely fast and effective way of cleaning chains.
The
solvent was filtered and re-used.


If someone built a chain-on-the-bike ultrasonic cleaner that would
be a
great product. Where you'd have a cleaning solution but no
whirling of
little brushes and grime would sink to the bottom.


If it cost similar to the mechanical chain cleaning tool...


Technically that wouldn't be very difficult to do but you have to
compare it to a quality chain bath tool, not some flimsy plastic
version
that only lasts maybe 2-3 years. Or at least consider the lifetime
cost.
An ultrasonic bath tool won't wear out.


I've had my flimsy plastic Park chain cleaning tool for nearly 20
years.


How often do you use it?

Whenever I need to clean my chain. Probably a lot less than you given
your type of riding. I guess once a month when it's dry out.


Then I am not surprised. I have to clean the chain on my MTB at least
once a week. The one on the road bike every other week, it also has to
endure some dirt roads. I am not sure if the li'l chain bath device will
stand up to "manzanita mousse", caked horse poop, mashed berries,
thistle chunks and similar gunk sticking on my MTB chain. I lift my bike
onto the work bench for the job. That gets the nose close to the chain
and sometimes it lets off a nasty stench.


Yeah, I've picked up on the fact that you are not a typical roadie. g
I don't insist that you use my choice of lube or my choice of chain
cleaner. If you need an ultrasonic bath tool, by all means go for it.