Should Cyclists Pack Guns?

In article , Arif Khokar wrote:

I believe a lot of the problems you encounter has to do with where you
ride. Since you're in (or near) a major metropolitan area, you're bound
to encounter more problems than I would given that I ride in a rather
small town where lots of people ride probably due to population and
traffic volume alone.

Of course. I should really count how many drivers I encounter in a
single ride. I am sure it can be over a 100 for a 20 mile round trip.
That's just a meger 5 per mile and I have to deal with more than that
at most stop lights and the stop lights are often only a half mile
apart... It's pretty easy for me to encounter a lot of one percenters.

I have had drivers shout at me and brush-pass me, but I haven't had
anything thrown at me as of yet. And I certainly am not submissive (e.
g., if I hear a car horn behind me while I'm riding in the right tire
track, I immediately take the lane.).

Same here. If they honk, they just told me they are incompetent and
that I need to have more space, not less.

wrote:

I can see that someone who instead waved single fingers, yelled
curses, etc. would get a different reaction. I'm not saying that's
what you do, but I wonder what the difference is.

- Frank Krygowski



Now that you mention that.....I am one of those motorists who stopped
for a conversation after passing a couple of bicycles riding two
abreast. I saw them, I saw no-one was coming in the oncoming lane, so I
passed them wide with the tyres hitting the cats-eye's on the road. We
are 'keep left' and it was the left tyres on the centreline so there was
****loads of room.

I look in the mirror and there's one of the Tour de France wannabes
giving me the finger.....so I stopped and got out of the car. They
stopped, had a quick chat, then carried on towards me. I asked what the
problem was and Mr. Finger started yelling (I always find it amusing
when someone loses the plot) that I should have been in the other lane
when I passed and he was sick of being passed closely by cars.
I pointed out that I was in the other lane with my left tyres on the
centreline, was nowhere near him and maybe they could drop to single
file when they heard a car coming, for safety sake if he's that worried
about it.....Well, that didn't go down too well with 'I have the right
blah, blah, blah......' and puffed up chest.

So I went with the 'whatever' and got back in the car commenting that
maybe he should just tone down the fingers, as some may take offence.

Two days later I saw the same guy but this time I was on my motorbike,
so I bombed him as close as possible at speed and put him in the ditch!

Iv'e seen him a couple of times since, both in the ute and on the bike
and he hasn't raised a finger......

Moral of the story....you might get away with it on the day, but people
remember and revenge is sweet.

But note, this is not usual policy for me as I ride a bicycle as well!
Judge people by their actions.

In article .com, wrote:
On Apr 26, 6:22 pm, (Brent P)
wrote:

I could just back down to whomever is aggressive towards me. Be
submissive, probably won't get far like that and if past experience
shows anything they'll just take more and more. Is that what you do,
Frank?

Nope. In fact, I've given quick lectures to quite a few motorists
over the years - and they weren't friendly lectures. Admittedly, I
doubt most had much lasting educational effect, but trust me, I've got
no reputation for submissiveness.

So have I. Just as recently as a couple weeks ago when some woman
sucking on slurpy nearly hit me... so I gave her a talking to when I
caught up with her a mile and half later.

So long as I use a bicycle as vehicle and not a toy, there will people
who are angered just because I am there.

Oh, I don't doubt that. But I am curious what it is that triggers the
near-attacks you claim to have.

Some me being on the road, others me not being submissive. those are
the two causes.

I know that the reaction I use for verbally abusive motorists is
usually something like just slowly shaking my head. The body language
conveys "I can't believe you're that dumb."

And that is exactly the sort of thing that set off the driver of the
black audi from brush passing and going on to stopping and then trying
to hurt me with car.

The reaction I use when
I'm taking a lane and someone blows a horn is either the same, or to
sit up, look back, and give a one-hand, palm up expression of "What??
What do you want me to do?? I'm riding where I'm supposed to!" With
both of those, I'm trying to maintain an image of superiority. It
seems to work.

That sort of thing would cause some drivers around here to flip out.
When they've honked, they are usually already angry. How do I know
this? Because I've done similiar things. I used to point down at the
road to the lane location I was in to state I was where I belonged.

I can see that someone who instead waved single fingers, yelled
curses, etc. would get a different reaction. I'm not saying that's
what you do, but I wonder what the difference is.

Besides what you do I will yell things like 'green light' or
'accelerate' when I am behind some sloth that isn't clearing an
intersection in a timely manner. (I don't like spending multiple red
light cycles waiting any more riding a bicycle than I do driving a
car.) That's gotten a finger or something yelled back. But they
usually don't do anything unless I move into the left lane to pass
them, and with that it doesn't matter if I said anything or not. I
found silently just moving to pass them is about the same.

If you do all the things you just said you do, you should have a run in
like those I described at a rate of 1 per year. Other confrontations of
a much lesser nature, usually just verbal or a middle finger every 2nd
to 3rd day.

Increased rates in march,april,may, late october,and novemember. Decreased
rates in august, september, and early october. I've never had a problem in
dec,jan,feb. But I don't ride so much in those months.

My guess is that drivers aren't used to bicyclists in the spring, as
more and more are on the roads the drivers get more hostile until they
'break in' around june. Then they get used to it and that lasts until
mid october. Then it's more like 'why the hell are you still out
here'... in the winter they probably take pity... I dunno. Then early
march is usually ok, but it quickly gets worse.

writes:

Sorry, but in my experience, and going by the data, the desire to
carry a gun is usually based on confusing life with movies. Real life
isn't much like an action flick.

Then don't carry a gun. Simple, no? And where did you get this idea
from anyway? Richard Donner?

In real life, the guy with the gun isn't a tough athlete who can whip
out his piece and blow away the bad guys driving toward him at high
speed. The guy with the gun is much more often a clumsy drunk who
gets aggressive toward his friends and family.

I would love to see a citation for this. I think you have a somewhat
warped view of people with guns. I certainly don't know anyone who
would seriously entertain the idea of shooting from a moving vehicle
of any kind.

--
This post uses 100% post consumer electrons and 100% virgin photons.

An ideal world is left as an excercise to the reader.
--- Paul Graham, On Lisp 8.1

At 2.6 miles per minute, you don't really have time to get bored.
--- Pete Roehling on rec.motorcycles

I bump into a lot of veteran riders in my travels.
--- David Hough: Proficient Motorcycling

(Brent P) writes:

Did I say anything about a gun being used to settle trivial disputes? No.
If drivers had a reasonable expectation that a bicyclist was armed, they
would not behave in the manner that they do. The trivial disputes would
not occur in the first place. The drivers who do this seem to have a
common thread that because the bicyclist is 'weaker' they have command of
the road and are willing to use the size and power of their motor vehicle
to enforce it or merely to entertain themselves at someone else's
expense. Personally I wouldn't even have to carry a gun, drivers would
just need to know the possibility deadly force as self defense was
significant enough. Right now in the state I live it is aproximately
zero. And I wager 99+% of the exceptions, what makes it non-zero, being
uniformed cops riding bicycles. Make this a mere 5-10% and I think there
would be an improvement in behavior from the bullies behind the wheel.

It's not about using the gun or even having it, but the thought it might
be there.

I live in a "shall issue" state. Drivers, especially those in really
expensive cars, give cyclists a wide berth. The traffic regulations
require them to do so as well. Of course there is still the
occasional asshole.

I know that there are states like MA and NJ that seem to think that
self defense is a crime. And that really sucks (I believe all gun
control laws to be unconstitutional anyway, but it takes the SCOTUS to
make that stick). I can't say you should break the law. But some
snail mail to your reps about this issue would certainly be in order.
Hell, get them on the phone!

I also have the opinion that two wheeled vehicles should be allowed to
filter to the front at intersections with traffic lights and stop
signs. It is so stupid to require such a small, narrow vehicle to
take up all the space of a seven passenger SUV.

Taiwain has a rather nice system in place. It's biggest weakness
though is that the scooter lanes are on the right side so a right
turning vehicle has to cut across the scooter lane. But on the plus
side, and this is a big plus, they have boxes at the intersections
that reserve space for two wheelers AHEAD of the four or more wheeled
traffic.

--
This post uses 100% post consumer electrons and 100% virgin photons.

An ideal world is left as an excercise to the reader.
--- Paul Graham, On Lisp 8.1

At 2.6 miles per minute, you don't really have time to get bored.
--- Pete Roehling on rec.motorcycles

I bump into a lot of veteran riders in my travels.
--- David Hough: Proficient Motorcycling

"nash" writes:

I would just add that some countries the police do not even where guns and
their populations are all the less violent.
Proceed as per usual.

There is virtually no crime in Vermont or Alaska. Neither state
requires a permit for citizens to carry concealed firearms.

--
This post uses 100% post consumer electrons and 100% virgin photons.

An ideal world is left as an excercise to the reader.
--- Paul Graham, On Lisp 8.1

At 2.6 miles per minute, you don't really have time to get bored.
--- Pete Roehling on rec.motorcycles

I bump into a lot of veteran riders in my travels.
--- David Hough: Proficient Motorcycling

I know that the reaction I use for verbally abusive motorists is
usually something like just slowly shaking my head. The body language
conveys "I can't believe you're that dumb." The reaction I use when
I'm taking a lane and someone blows a horn is either the same, or to
sit up, look back, and give a one-hand, palm up expression of "What??
What do you want me to do?? I'm riding where I'm supposed to!" With
both of those, I'm trying to maintain an image of superiority. It
seems to work.


I tried this yesterday when being buzzed by a semi pulling two trailers.
Did not work at all he tried to kill me again and then when I caught up told
me to stay out of the way. I was already a block ahead and over to the
right and he did it again. Then he was stuck behind a 100 cars turning left
at the next light.
I could have been killed because he does not know how to time lights. Geez!
A professional driver. I am staying off that road now at that time of day.
He was out to scare a cyclist to death just because I could get through
traffic alot better even with his dangerous tactics. I rode around one car
because they got stuck prematurely turning into my lane. That really ticked
him off I guess because I was never in his way. He had to sit at the next
light for probably three cycles or more.
Blessed are the meek for the shall inherit the world. But you have to live
long enough to collect.

"nash" wrote in message
news:VAnYh.133822$DE1.26120@pd7urf2no...
I know that the reaction I use for verbally abusive motorists is
usually something like just slowly shaking my head. The body language
conveys "I can't believe you're that dumb." The reaction I use when
I'm taking a lane and someone blows a horn is either the same, or to
sit up, look back, and give a one-hand, palm up expression of "What??
What do you want me to do?? I'm riding where I'm supposed to!" With
both of those, I'm trying to maintain an image of superiority. It
seems to work.


I tried this yesterday when being buzzed by a semi pulling two trailers.
Did not work at all he tried to kill me again and then when I caught up
told me to stay out of the way. I was already a block ahead and over to
the right and he did it again. Then he was stuck behind a 100 cars
turning left at the next light.
I could have been killed because he does not know how to time lights.
Geez! A professional driver. I am staying off that road now at that time
of day. He was out to scare a cyclist to death just because I could get
through traffic alot better even with his dangerous tactics. I rode
around one car because they got stuck prematurely turning into my lane.
That really ticked him off I guess because I was never in his way. He had
to sit at the next light for probably three cycles or more.
Blessed are the meek for the shall inherit the world. But you have to
live long enough to collect.

At least in the US you can write down the numbers and give him some grief
that way. Its more effective than many realize.

A while back I was being seriously tailgated by a armored car. Daughter
took a couple of pictures with her cellphone camera. When he made and
illegal and dangerous passing move (forced the car ahead of me into the left
turn lane). I got his numbers, including "call this number if I am driving
badly". When I called the company back a week later to follow up, they were
most emphatic that he no longer worked there.

"Steve" wrote in message
news:RRnYh.81036$_c5.52798@attbi_s22...

"nash" wrote in message
news:VAnYh.133822$DE1.26120@pd7urf2no...
I know that the reaction I use for verbally abusive motorists is
usually something like just slowly shaking my head. The body language
conveys "I can't believe you're that dumb." The reaction I use when
I'm taking a lane and someone blows a horn is either the same, or to
sit up, look back, and give a one-hand, palm up expression of "What??
What do you want me to do?? I'm riding where I'm supposed to!" With
both of those, I'm trying to maintain an image of superiority. It
seems to work.


I tried this yesterday when being buzzed by a semi pulling two trailers.
Did not work at all he tried to kill me again and then when I caught up
told me to stay out of the way. I was already a block ahead and over to
the right and he did it again. Then he was stuck behind a 100 cars
turning left at the next light.
I could have been killed because he does not know how to time lights.
Geez! A professional driver. I am staying off that road now at that time
of day. He was out to scare a cyclist to death just because I could get
through traffic alot better even with his dangerous tactics. I rode
around one car because they got stuck prematurely turning into my lane.
That really ticked him off I guess because I was never in his way. He
had to sit at the next light for probably three cycles or more.
Blessed are the meek for the shall inherit the world. But you have to
live long enough to collect.

At least in the US you can write down the numbers and give him some grief
that way. Its more effective than many realize.

A while back I was being seriously tailgated by a armored car. Daughter
took a couple of pictures with her cellphone camera. When he made and
illegal and dangerous passing move (forced the car ahead of me into the
left turn lane). I got his numbers, including "call this number if I am
driving badly". When I called the company back a week later to follow up,
they were most emphatic that he no longer worked there.
Hi Steve,
I did get his number as he was sitting in the long line up. And he knew
it.
When I told the police they said just be thankful you are alive.
She could not understand why that ****ed me off.
They put out a bulletin on the guy but it was 30 minutes too late as I was
on a long ride.
To tell you the truth since he was in such a big hurry I wanted to sit in
front of him and not let him move which I could easily do. There were 100's
of witnesses so what could he do. I would have done that last year for
sure. But today I had a couple dogs that were depending on me coming home.

On Apr 27, 10:34 am, "Steve" wrote:


A while back I was being seriously tailgated by a armored car. Daughter
took a couple of pictures with her cellphone camera. When he made and
illegal and dangerous passing move (forced the car ahead of me into the left
turn lane). I got his numbers, including "call this number if I am driving
badly". When I called the company back a week later to follow up, they were
most emphatic that he no longer worked there.

Last year, my wife and I were on our way out into the country when we
were passed by a school bus on a two-lane road, just before a stop
sign. We were close enough to the intersection that he should not
have passed. As it was, after passing using the opposing lane, he
forced his way back into our lane too close for my comfort.

He was heading for the bus lot just 1/4 mile away. I followed him
there, waited until he exited the bus, and gave him a lecture. And if
his attitude hadn't been acceptable to me at that point, I would have
written a letter to the school board.

Professional drivers _should_ have a higher level of skill. Some do
not. But their driving mistakes do put their salaries at risk, and
it's possible to take advantage of that.

- Frank Krygowski