clipless pedals - do they increase "average butt pressure"?

James wrote:
On Jul 28, 4:57 pm, Chalo wrote:
James wrote:

I also can't imagine Shane Kelly trying to cracking 1 minute for 1000m
without a solid attachment to the pedals.
Do you think that clips and straps may constitute "a solid attachment
to the pedals"?

More solid than platforms. Though I have heard of some track
sprinters bolting their shoes to the pedals, many sprinters use double
toe straps. Shane Kelly didn't have the straps tight enough at the
Olympics, I believe, and pulled a foot on the start line of the kilo.
I wonder how he would go on platforms? I've seen roadies pull a foot
in sprints from clipless pedals, so they're certainly not as solid as
some may need them to be, and yes that may be poor form if they
twisted their foot sideways inadvertently.

In my casual observation, most clipless pedals are a substitute for
good form. Which makes them like most clips and straps, frankly.

What is "good form"?

On platforms you cannot effectively drag through the bottom of the
stroke, nor push over the top, and certainly not lift.
It must be possible to increase anaerobic output if you are capable of
producing useful torque over a larger portion of a crank revolution.
It requires training and practice to make best use. Gym strength
sessions and exercises on rollers to improve cadence and smooth
pedaling helped me no end, as well as one legged efforts.
Acceleration over a few hundred meters in the seat was improved beyond
doubt, and out of the saddle sprints too.

Clipless pedals compared with toe straps for people interested in road
races is a no brainer. No more numb toes from tight straps, and easy
engagement and disengagement.

Dave Grylls pulled out of a strap at the Olympic finals in
1984. Ouch. No medal.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Jul 28, 7:13 pm, Dan O wrote:
On Jul 27, 9:12 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:



On Jul 27, 8:48 pm, David Scheidt wrote:

James wrote:

:On Jul 28, 11:28 am, David Scheidt wrote:: James wrote:

:
: :disappear. And the benefits of clipless pedals are numerous. If you
:
: By far the biggest benefit of clipless pedals is that peple think they
: have numerous benefits.

:Really. You don't think there are numerous benefits to using clipless
edals?

You get to wear silly shoes. That's good for the shoe makers. They keep
your feet on the pedal if you don't know how to pedal, or ride past the
point where you can remember to push down at the top of the stroke, or
ride a track bike. As far as making the bike faster, no, they don't.
It's possible to get slightly more power, at the expense of a fairly
substantial decrease in overall efficency. That's useful if you're
racing, sure. For people who just ride for pleasure, to get to work, or
to stay in shape, not so much. It's just a way to seperate "serious"
cyclists from "not-serious" based on willingness to subscribe to a
group delusion.

Can't bunny hop or apply any upward force without some sort of foot
retention. I climb out of the saddle and pull up hard on my pedals.

Growing up on typical kid's bikes in the 60s and 70s, I learned to
wheelie and skid, go over jumps, eventually to slide sideways without
braking, and generally maneuver pretty well, but never learned to
bunny hop (I did learn to dynamically unload either wheel as needed).
Just the other day, though, I was out in the road by my house on my
wheelie bike (Nishiki MTB - old MKS platform pedals), and while
practically standing still, jumped upward and lifted the bike by the
bars, then leaned sharply forward, pushing forward on the bars and
pivoted the bike forward, getting both wheels well off the ground.


Actually, thinking about it just now, I think maybe I must have jumped
up with forward rotation in one sort of fluid action - can't think why
else the pedals would stay with my feet as well as they did - but
definitely lifted the bike into the air by just the handlebars.

.... ahhhhhh, now I'm gonna have to go out and try it some more :-)

(Made me smile :-)

I love my clipless pedals and shoes.

Me, too (especially the sandals right about now).

On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 12:53:48 -0600, wrote:

The experiment is simple and gives a rider some idea of what kind of
power he can actually expected from the muscles that normally do
nothing except raise a foot, as opposed to the muscles that normally
raise the whole body.

Hey, those muscles got me out of Schenectady once. Long, long hill,
so tired that if I stopped I might not be able to get back on, too
tired to pedal -- I started pulling up on the pedals and letting my
feet fall of their own weight, switched my mind into eternal mode,
eventually got back to flat land.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://roughsewing.home.comcast.net/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.

On Jul 29, 11:59*am, Dan O wrote:
On Jul 28, 3:29 pm, James wrote:
It must be possible to increase anaerobic output if you are capable of
producing useful torque over a larger portion of a crank revolution.
It requires training and practice to make best use. *Gym strength
sessions and exercises on rollers to improve cadence and smooth
pedaling helped me no end, as well as one legged efforts.
Acceleration over a few hundred meters in the seat was improved beyond
doubt, and out of the saddle sprints too.

All that went right over my head (don't know what you're even talking
about). *I just ride bike. *It sounds all right, though. *I'll take
your word for it.

With a platform pedal, if you can push with 50kg of force that
ultimately limits how much power you can produce.

With a clipless pedal (or cleat and toestrap) if you can push with
50kg of force and pull with even only 10kg of force, you have
increased the maximum power you can produce.

Clipless pedals probably don't magically increase sustained long term
power output, however over a short distance such as a sprint, short
steep hill, or acceleration off the lights, being able to pull as well
as push has increased your short term power output substantially. It
also means that your upper body has less work to do because the pull
from one leg can help balance push from the other.

Just swapping from one pedal type to another may not give a good
indication of the achievable difference. Some specific training will
no doubt improve ones short and long term power output on either pedal
type. For example, a BMX rider may not get the best from a road bike
with clipless pedals because his muscles are not trained to make use
of the attachment to the pedals, and vice versa.

Regards,
James.

On Jul 28, 3:36*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 21:54:44 -0700 (PDT), James

wrote:
On Jul 28, 1:48*pm, David Scheidt wrote:
*As far as making the bike faster, no, they don't.

Yes, they do.

Dear James,

Do you have any links to tests showing clipless pedals making bikes
faster?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,

Yes, for a sprint. "In fact, clipless pedals allowed a greater
muscular activity, a greater efficiency index, and better muscular
coordination."

http://tinyurl.com/2vuasuf

Regards,
James.

In article
,
Chalo wrote:

James wrote:

Carl Fogel wrote:

Do you have any links to tests showing clipless pedals making bikes
faster?

No.

David Scheidt said:

It's possible to get slightly more power ....

I agreed with David.

I also can't imagine Shane Kelly trying to cracking 1 minute for 1000m
without a solid attachment to the pedals.

Do you think that clips and straps may constitute "a solid attachment
to the pedals"?

In my casual observation, most clipless pedals are a substitute for
good form.

Disagree. Click in pedals keep my feet attached to the pedals
so they do no slip off. I could ride without them, and work
to keep my feet attached, but that is effort and attention
better applied elsewhere. Click in pedals make riding
safer for me.

--
Michael Press

On 28 July, 04:24, James wrote:
On Jul 28, 12:23*pm, thirty-six wrote:



On 27 July, 22:55, James wrote:

On Jul 28, 1:18*am, " wrote:

clipless pedals

do they increase "average butt pressure"?

since now you can pull as well as push the pedals, it would seem that
average butt pressure would have to go up..?

I'd guess you're right.

If you want to get the most out of your body and butt pressure is an
issue for you, I'd suggest cycling more often on a good racing style
saddle and with clipless pedals.

B17 , B17N, Colt, Professional, *Competition and variants etc.

I'd never looked at the Brooks website before, but this made me
laugh...

Team Pro Titanium
Weight: 430g
Frame: Titanium

I think there are only a few saddles heavier than this onhttp://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=saddles
and they mostly come from Brooks too.

Does any Pro Team actually use one of these?

JS.

Probably never issued although an individual rider may want to if he
needs to get the miles in. With bicycle construction taking the
complete bike under the UCI prescribed minimum weight, there is the
option to use more suitable components where they matter the most.

It is rather interesting that although the Brooks was probably the
heaviest of racing saddles, it was reputed to be used almost
throughout the professional peloton. There were other manufacturers
offering lighter butt leather saddles. I think perhaps they were not
so popular because they did not have the lifespan of a Brooks.

I have a Brooks Competition with bag loops and zinc plated frame.
Seems like it will last forever, as long as I keep ignoring the
crooked rivets. It needs oiling occasionally so that the leather does
not dry and wear. A bit of wax stops it getting too soft on long
rides. It really is the ideal saddle for long days of summer use.

On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 21:28:32 -0700 (PDT), James
wrote:

On Jul 28, 3:36*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 21:54:44 -0700 (PDT), James

wrote:
On Jul 28, 1:48*pm, David Scheidt wrote:
*As far as making the bike faster, no, they don't.

Yes, they do.

Dear James,

Do you have any links to tests showing clipless pedals making bikes
faster?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,

Yes, for a sprint. "In fact, clipless pedals allowed a greater
muscular activity, a greater efficiency index, and better muscular
coordination."

http://tinyurl.com/2vuasuf

Regards,
James.

Dear James,

Thanks--I'd never have found that article.

Since the details are $31.50, I'll settle for "The results show a
significant increase of the maximal values of force, velocity and
power output when clip-less pedals were used [in a series of four
8-second sprints] . . ."

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

wrote:
:On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 21:28:32 -0700 (PDT), James
wrote:

:On Jul 28, 3:36*pm, wrote:
: On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 21:54:44 -0700 (PDT), James
:
: wrote:
: On Jul 28, 1:48*pm, David Scheidt wrote:
: *As far as making the bike faster, no, they don't.
:
: Yes, they do.
:
: Dear James,
:
: Do you have any links to tests showing clipless pedals making bikes
: faster?
:
: Cheers,
:
: Carl Fogel
:
:Dear Carl,
:
:Yes, for a sprint. "In fact, clipless pedals allowed a greater
:muscular activity, a greater efficiency index, and better muscular
:coordination."
:
:http://tinyurl.com/2vuasuf
:
:Regards,
:James.

ear James,

:Thanks--I'd never have found that article.

:Since the details are $31.50, I'll settle for "The results show a
:significant increase of the maximal values of force, velocity and
ower output when clip-less pedals were used [in a series of four
:8-second sprints] . . ."

'Sorry, your request could not be processed because the format of the
URL was incorrect. Contact the Help Desk if the problem persists.
[SD-001] '

Can I have an actual citation, and not a fake url? What's the DOI?

--
sig 29

On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:39:45 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

wrote:
:On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 21:28:32 -0700 (PDT), James
wrote:

:On Jul 28, 3:36*pm, wrote:
: On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 21:54:44 -0700 (PDT), James
:
: wrote:
: On Jul 28, 1:48*pm, David Scheidt wrote:
: *As far as making the bike faster, no, they don't.
:
: Yes, they do.
:
: Dear James,
:
: Do you have any links to tests showing clipless pedals making bikes
: faster?
:
: Cheers,
:
: Carl Fogel
:
:Dear Carl,
:
:Yes, for a sprint. "In fact, clipless pedals allowed a greater
:muscular activity, a greater efficiency index, and better muscular
:coordination."
:
:http://tinyurl.com/2vuasuf
:
:Regards,
:James.

ear James,

:Thanks--I'd never have found that article.

:Since the details are $31.50, I'll settle for "The results show a
:significant increase of the maximal values of force, velocity and
ower output when clip-less pedals were used [in a series of four
:8-second sprints] . . ."

'Sorry, your request could not be processed because the format of the
URL was incorrect. Contact the Help Desk if the problem persists.
[SD-001] '

Can I have an actual citation, and not a fake url? What's the DOI?

Dear Dave,

That tinyurl worked fine for me:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...30dafcbe9e6ecd
or http://tinyurl.com/2vuasuf

The French/English text is below.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Article original
Effet de l'utilisation de pédales automatiques sur les
caractéristiques mécaniques mesurées lors de sprints sur
cycloergomètre non isocinétique

The effect of clip-less pedals on mechanical characteristics measured
during sprinting on a non-isokinetic cycle ergometer

Purchase the full-text article

References and further reading may be available for this article. To
view references and further reading you must purchase this article.

F. Hintzy, A. Belli, F. Grappe and J.D. Rouillon

Laboratoire des sciences du sport, UFR STAPS, place Saint-Jacques,
25000 Besançon, France
Received 19 June 1998;
accepted 20 November 1998.
Available online 12 September 2001.

Résumé
Objectifs.

Le but de cette étude était de comparer les caractéristiques
mécaniques d'un sprint mesurées sur cycloergomètre non isocinétique
avec deux types de pédales (automatiques ou sans maintien avec la
chaussure).
Méthodes.

Deux groupes de cyclistes (internationaux—nationaux et régionaux) ont
réalisé quatre sprints de 8 secondes contre deux charges de friction
(0,5 et 1,1 N.kg-1). Une analyse de la variance à deux facteurs
(pédales et groupe) a été réalisée.
Résultats.

Les valeurs moyennes par coup de pédale de force, vitesse et puissance
maximales relevées avec les pédales automatiques étaient
significativement supérieures à celles sans pédales non automatiques,
quelle que soit la charge de friction.
Conclusions.

Cette amélioration de la puissance maximale a pu être expliquée par
une augmentation des valeurs optimales de vitesse ou de force, lorsque
la charge de friction était élevée ou faible. II semblerait que
l'amélioration de la performance lors de l'utilisation de pédales
automatiques puisse être expliquée par l'augmentation de l'activation
musculaire et/ou par une coordination intermusculaire améliorée.

Summary
Purpose.

The purpose of this study was to compare the mechanical parameters
measured on a non-isokinetic cycle ergometer equiped with or without
toe-clip pedals during sprinting.
Methods.

Two groups of subjects (international-national and regional cyclists)
performed four sprints of 8 seconds with two different friction forces
applied to the belt (0.5 or 1.1 N.kg-1). A variance analysis with
repeated measures (shoe-pedal linkages and groups) has been performed.
Results.

The results show a significant increase of the maximal values of
force, velocity and power output when clip-less pedals were used,
whatever the friction force applied.
Conclusions.

This improvement of maximal power could be attributed to a significant
increase in optimal velocity, which was observed for both considerable
and minimal friction force. In fact, clipless pedals allowed a greater
muscular activity, a greater efficiency index, and better muscular
coordination.

Résumé
Objectifs.

Le but de cette étude était de comparer les caractéristiques
mécaniques d'un sprint mesurées sur cycloergomètre non isocinétique
avec deux types de pédales (automatiques ou sans maintien avec la
chaussure).

Méthodes.

Deux groupes de cyclistes (internationaux—nationaux et régionaux) ont
réalisé quatre sprints de 8 secondes contre deux charges de friction
(0,5 et 1,1 N.kg-1). Une analyse de la variance à deux facteurs
(pédales et groupe) a été réalisée.

Résultats.

Les valeurs moyennes par coup de pédale de force, vitesse et puissance
maximales relevées avec les pédales automatiques étaient
significativement supérieures à celles sans pédales non automatiques,
quelle que soit la charge de friction.
Conclusions.

Cette amélioration de la puissance maximale a pu être expliquée par
une augmentation des valeurs optimales de vitesse ou de force, lorsque
la charge de friction était élevée ou faible. II semblerait que
l'amélioration de la performance lors de l'utilisation de pédales
automatiques puisse être expliquée par l'augmentation de l'activation
musculaire et/ou par une coordination intermusculaire améliorée.

Author Keywords: cyclisme; force—vitesse; puissance maximale;
entraînement; cycloergométre

Author Keywords: cycling; clipless; force-velocity relationships;
maximal power output; training level
Science & Sports
Volume 14, Issue 3, May-June 1999, Pages 137-144