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  #161  
Old March 16th 17, 01:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 9,032
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On 3/15/2017 11:12 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/15/2017 11:05 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 19:46:28 -0500, AMuzi
wrote:

On 3/15/2017 7:39 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 14:08:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/14/2017 11:15 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 12:09:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
But the point I was discussing was whether too brief
or too dim
standlights really kill or seriously injure
_stationary_ bicyclists.
I've never heard of such a case. I think it's yet
another exaggerated
danger.

Bicycle lighting seems to be divided into "see where
your going" and
"be seen" parts. Standlights are in the "be seen"
part. If so, then
using a relatively narrow forward facing headlight is
inadequate and a
poor substitute for all around "be seen" type lighting.

So far, no driver has tried to kill me while I'm
stationary, but it's
possible. To help prevent such a threat, I would need
all around
illumination because I don't know from what direction
the driver might
approach and I do NOT need to see where I'm going
(because I'm not
going anywhere). Some kind of flashing headband,
flashing arm bands,
or maybe downward facing flood lights to illuminate an
area. Maybe an
LED illuminated vest, which is now popular among
highway workers:
https://www.amazon.com/HIGH-VISIBILITY-VEST-COMPLIANT-REFLECTIVE/dp/B01L2US0EY

https://www.amazon.com/SE-EP08L-Illuminated-Flashing-Feature/dp/B008WAE2XQ

https://www.amazon.com/SE-EP07L-Flashing-Illuminated-Safety/dp/B004J663A2

I don't know which type of "be seen" lighting might be
most effective,
but any of the aformentioned would be better than a
dim forward facing
standlight.

Thing is, nobody's demonstrated any need for so much
stationary "be
seen" light, beyond the usual "well, it _could_ happen"
safety inflation
mentality.

We're facing the same mentality regarding our local
forest preserve.
Some people want to cut down every dead or dying tree
within 100 feet of
any trail because, well, it _could_ fall on somebody
and kill them. Sheesh.

I have worked in area where it is probable that no one
has ever cut
down a tree until we arrived and there never was a
problem with dead
or diseased trees falling down.

One problem with cutting down trees that "could" fall
down is that in
a hurricane many perfectly healthy trees get blown down.
Perhaps the
cutting of all trees taller than the average human
"could" lives.

And, of course, banning the ownership of bicycles
"could" save ~900
lives a year.


A bicycle ban?
How's that 100-year worldwide Heroin ban working?


Works great! Allows a considerable number of common
ordinary people to
make a "decent" living.

True the demand does seems to be decreasing but the
widening the
demand for amphetamines, which can be made at home rather
than waiting
for a crop to ripen and getting all bound up with buying
futures and
warehousing raw materials.

As an aside, do you think anyone wants the "war on drugs"
to be won?

Examples:

U.S. Coastguard budget (numbers adjusted to 2013 dollars):
1950 - $1,439,312,446
2013 - $ 7,051,054,000

The total DEA budget is difficult to ascertain but:
The total budget of the DEA from 1972 to 2014, according
to the
agency website, was $50.6 billion. The agency had 11,055
employees in
2014. For the year 2014 the average cost per arrest made
was $97,325.

An estimate by The Cato Institute, in 2010, states that
the legalizing
of drugs would save roughly $41.3 billion per year in
government
expenditure. Or to put it a different way, The War on
Drugs is costing
the U.S. an estimated $41.3 billion dollars a year.

Do you think that anyone wants all that lovely lolly to
disappear?


To make a sort of meta-point:

People often claim that the discussions here are worthless.
In particular, because nobody here ever changes their mind.

But it's partly because of information I've gotten here
(corroborated elsewhere) that I now believe most drugs
should be legalized. I think the U.S. should more or less
follow the Portugal strategy, with perhaps some minor
modifications.


No one analyzed this subject better than the genius Ludwig
von Mises:

“Opium and morphine are certainly dangerous, habit-forming
drugs. But once the principle is admitted that it is the
duty of government to protect the individual against his own
foolishness, no serious objections can be advanced against
further encroachments... Why limit the government’s
benevolent providence to the protection of the individual’s
body only?” Mises asks. “Is not the harm a man can inflict
on his mind and soul even more disastrous than any bodily
evils? Why not prevent him from reading bad books and seeing
bad plays, from looking at bad paintings and statues and
from hearing bad music?”

and further:
“He who wants to reform his countrymen must take recourse to
persuasion. This alone is the democratic way of bringing
about changes. If a man fails in his endeavors to convince
other people of the soundness of his ideas,” Mises
concludes, “he should blame his own disabilities. He should
not ask for a law, that is, for compulsion and coercion by
the police.”

Which of course brings us right down to 2017.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


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  #162  
Old March 16th 17, 06:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 4,625
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On 2017-03-14 19:43, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 07:54:26 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-13 20:00, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:38:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:
55V at 500mA. This is encouraging.


That's 27.5 watts out of a 3 watt dynamo. I was impressed, until I
converted 136 km/hr and found that it was 84.5 mph. With a rocket
assisted bicycle, I might be able to do that.


Well, yeah, they just wanted to see where the limit is. I guess the
enameled copper wire inside would smoke out if you kept that speed for long.


Only the resistive part dissipates power in the wi
P = I^2 * R = 0.5^2 * 2 = 0.5 watts
So, it won't be the wire that gets hot. However, the cores in
saturation are going to get warm. Offhand, I don't know how to
calculate how hot.


The lowest resistance I measured is on my largest bottle dynamo, 6.2
ohms. That added to the cores also becoming hot and not being able to
sink away much heat sets it up for a burn-out.


However, this means I should be comfortably able to milk 10W or more out
of such a dynamo on a long downhill stretch and maybe north of 5W during
regular rides on flat terrain. IOW there seems to be nothing that
inherently limits things to the usual measly 3-4W.


Maybe. Let's pretend that the test demonstrates that the dynamo can
deliver 28 watts for perhaps 60 minutes before blowing up. Assuming
constant energy (Joules or watt-seconds) at any speed.



Not any speed but the usual cruise speed of a rider in decent shape.
Also assuming MPPT because it really won't be possible without that. At
least a poor man's MPPT where the input voltage is set to a fixed higher
level such as 12V.


... That would be
10 watts for 168 minutes. Assuming 10 watts output is a comfortable
ride for you,



I think I can muster a little more than 10W :-)

10W wouldn't even show up in the noise for a regular rider.


... you would have about 3 hrs of bright light before the
dynamo self-destructed. Actually, it would probably be more like 4 or
5 hrs since the system is not adiabatic and the heat radiation
efficiency of the dynamo case is time dependent.


10W should be fine considering that the dynamo will then also be cooled
by air streaming past. On hot days I have to ratchet down the front
light anyhow when riding at low speed because else the overtemp shut-off
comes on. Then the net energy draw of the power bus becomes lower and
the charge controller reduced the dynamo draw to 4-5W.


The author is mostly correct about hubs not going into saturation as
easily and bottle dynamos. However, they do go into staturation, just
at a higher RPM.


If that happens above 84mph I shall be happy :-)


Dream on. If you look at the dynamo speed vs power curves at:
http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html
They all begin to go into saturation at 15 to 20 km/hr. At 136 km/hr,
the dynamo will produce 27.5 watts, but the rest of the input energy
will be wasted in core saturation heating. If you paint flames on the
fenders, maybe other riders will think the burning dynamo is normal.


There is no need for 27.5W but there is for 8-10W. That should be
reasonably possible, else the dynamo would have smoked out during their
testing.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/122373782338
(Yet another project that I'll never finish).


That is a neat little instrument.


Yep. I don't have one yet, but it's a real temptation to install one
on all my various unmetered power supplies and battery packs. However,
there's a catch. The common ground is positive (+), not negative.
You can see that in the schematic:
https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i3/121163002/TB2NoBogpXXXXahXpXXXXXXXXXX_!!121163002.jpg
where the + leads of both the "DC in" and the load are connected
together. The only ways I could make it work in a negative ground
system was either an isolated power source, isolated load, separate
isolated power supply to run the meter, or a DC-DC inverter.


That would be a show stopper in most applications. Got to have high-side
current sensing. From a dynamo it's still feasible after things have
been turned to DC because the hub versions usually have two ground-free
terminals. Bottle dynamos unfortunately not. However, when doing MPPT
there already is a micro controller which can then also perform the job
of energy metering. I would not need that though, maybe just an
indicator of whether the dynamo is able to feed enough for a given light
setting. Even that is expendable if you have a voltmeter riding along
with the Li-Ion battery. In my case I'd just have to make sure it won't
get close to 7V where the electronics will eventually shut things off.


Anyhow, I don't
think a dynamo can easily be simulated until you start with a mechanical
model of it and that gets into COMSOL and other really expensive
modeling software. Maybe possible with MathCad which I have but rarely
use so I became rusty there.


Yep. That was pretty much my conclusion. Jim Thomson posted this
Pspice component model:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.electronics.design/yPVvclIIirQ
which I have been unable to convert to LTSpice. He seems to just put
a sharp knee where the dynamo starts to go into saturation. That's
probably good enough to get started. The rest is mechanical and
rather messy if I add nonlinearities, friction, and air resistance. I
do have one advantage with a hub dynamo. I can characterize it as a
motor on the bench and then simply invert the derived functions to
produce a generator. That might be a worthy shortcut.


Nothing beats trying it on the bench, using a variable speed drill or
similar. I haven't observed a sharp knee effect on any of them so far.
Which probably explains the large number of bulbs I blew out in the 80's
when I had to get somewhere fast.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #163  
Old March 16th 17, 08:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 4,625
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On 2017-03-15 12:39, Doug Landau wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 12:19:18 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 10:20:10 AM UTC-7, Doug Landau
wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 9:45:34 AM UTC-7, jbeattie
wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 7:53:52 AM UTC-7, David Scheidt
wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:

:I remember burning out bulbs with my bottle dynamo if I rode
really :fast. I also remember the slipping problems when the
wheels were wet even :when I used the rubber boot sold to go
on the bottle dynamo roller. Hub :dynamos today really seem
to fall down at slow speeds.

Mine work fine from walking speeds. They produce more light
at higher speeds, but at slow speeds you don't need it,
because you're not moving fast.


I sometimes need light most at slow speeds, when I'm creeping
up hills and trying not to fall into giant pot holes.

-- Jay Beattie.

Where are you on Strava


No Strava. No Garmin. My cyclometer is broken. I might as well be
back in the stoneage.

-- Jay Beattie.


Strava's just for fun. I don't use a cyclometer any more. I just
count rear tires and multiply by 1500 now.



1500mi? Is that really all you get out of a rear tire? I routinely got
2500mi out of Gatorskins. The CST Conquistare I put on there now doesn't
look like it'll give me that many miles though.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #164  
Old March 16th 17, 09:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
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Posts: 1,338
Default More About Lights

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 12:12:58 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-15 12:39, Doug Landau wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 12:19:18 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 10:20:10 AM UTC-7, Doug Landau
wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 9:45:34 AM UTC-7, jbeattie
wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 7:53:52 AM UTC-7, David Scheidt
wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:

:I remember burning out bulbs with my bottle dynamo if I rode
really :fast. I also remember the slipping problems when the
wheels were wet even :when I used the rubber boot sold to go
on the bottle dynamo roller. Hub :dynamos today really seem
to fall down at slow speeds.

Mine work fine from walking speeds. They produce more light
at higher speeds, but at slow speeds you don't need it,
because you're not moving fast.


I sometimes need light most at slow speeds, when I'm creeping
up hills and trying not to fall into giant pot holes.

-- Jay Beattie.

Where are you on Strava

No Strava. No Garmin. My cyclometer is broken. I might as well be
back in the stoneage.

-- Jay Beattie.


Strava's just for fun. I don't use a cyclometer any more. I just
count rear tires and multiply by 1500 now.



1500mi? Is that really all you get out of a rear tire? I routinely got
2500mi out of Gatorskins. The CST Conquistare I put on there now doesn't
look like it'll give me that many miles though.


I used to get 2K when I weighed 50 Lbs less
I routinely get 2500-3K from a Gatorskin. I count em as 2 when figuring the mileage on my bike
I -think- I've been getting slightly over 1500 from the basic conti - the 2000 or ultrasport or whatever its called these days
I -think- I get slightly under 1500 from SRAM 9 speed chains. I used to get 2K from those, too, when they were Sachs 8speed. Now it seems like 1200-1400

  #165  
Old March 16th 17, 09:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 4,625
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On 2017-03-16 13:00, Doug Landau wrote:
On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 12:12:58 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-15 12:39, Doug Landau wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 12:19:18 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 10:20:10 AM UTC-7, Doug Landau
wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 9:45:34 AM UTC-7, jbeattie
wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 7:53:52 AM UTC-7, David Scheidt
wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:

:I remember burning out bulbs with my bottle dynamo if I rode
really :fast. I also remember the slipping problems when the
wheels were wet even :when I used the rubber boot sold to go
on the bottle dynamo roller. Hub :dynamos today really seem
to fall down at slow speeds.

Mine work fine from walking speeds. They produce more light
at higher speeds, but at slow speeds you don't need it,
because you're not moving fast.


I sometimes need light most at slow speeds, when I'm creeping
up hills and trying not to fall into giant pot holes.

-- Jay Beattie.

Where are you on Strava

No Strava. No Garmin. My cyclometer is broken. I might as well be
back in the stoneage.

-- Jay Beattie.

Strava's just for fun. I don't use a cyclometer any more. I just
count rear tires and multiply by 1500 now.



1500mi? Is that really all you get out of a rear tire? I routinely got
2500mi out of Gatorskins. The CST Conquistare I put on there now doesn't
look like it'll give me that many miles though.


I used to get 2K when I weighed 50 Lbs less
I routinely get 2500-3K from a Gatorskin. I count em as 2 when figuring the mileage on my bike
I -think- I've been getting slightly over 1500 from the basic conti - the 2000 or ultrasport or whatever its called these days
I -think- I get slightly under 1500 from SRAM 9 speed chains. I used to get 2K from those, too, when they were Sachs 8speed. Now it seems like 1200-1400


I've got a Sachs-Sedis 7-speed chain on my trusty old road bike. A
friend had one left over and it still had the old $6 price tag on it. It
is almost unbelievable, that chain is now on there for more than 4000mi
and it's only at 0.5% stretch. It does not want to die. I am very picky
WRT chain maintenance though. Clean and lube latest every 250mi, and
every 50mi on the MTB.

It'll survive the cassette which is technically close to EOL and I
installed it at about the same time. Although since I dremeled away the
excess on the odd splines I can flip all the sprockets around and get
another round out of them. Which I'll probably do since slightly more
recalcitrant shifting won't bother me, having grown up in the UG days.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #166  
Old March 16th 17, 10:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Posts: 5,648
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On 16/03/17 16:44, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 5:40:55 PM UTC-4, James wrote:



At creeping speeds (less than 10km/h), I could see holes with a
candle light.


Must be nice to be blessed with such perfect vision! many of us find
that we need a prety bright light in order to see where we're going
and the obstacles to avoid at night. that's not to mention that it's
nice to be able to see critters on theroads or trails in time to slow
or stop to avoid running over them. Personally, I like a supplemental
High beam light so that ican see a longer way down an unlit very dark
road on a moonless night so I can see the skunks at the side of the
road or on the road well BEFORE I startle them. YMMV


If you need a high beam light to see enough not to bump in to things at
night while you are moving at less than 10km/h ( 6 miles/h), you have
really poor eyesight. Do you walk with a white cane?

--
JS
  #167  
Old March 16th 17, 10:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 3,346
Default More About Lights

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 2:13:53 PM UTC-7, James wrote:

If you need a high beam light to see enough not to bump in to things at
night while you are moving at less than 10km/h ( 6 miles/h), you have
really poor eyesight. Do you walk with a white cane?


This is close to the mark. But even Frank has to admit that this subject has been beaten to death since this is the 170th posting on this string.
  #168  
Old March 16th 17, 11:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 2,569
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On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:20:43 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

There is no need for 27.5W but there is for 8-10W. That should be
reasonably possible, else the dynamo would have smoked out during their
testing.


If all you're powering are head and tail lights, 10 watts should be
sufficient. However, if you're powering other devices (GPS,
smartphone, rear view camera, electric shifter, fog horn, etc), then
more power is better.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/122373782338
(Yet another project that I'll never finish).


That is a neat little instrument.


Yep. I don't have one yet, but it's a real temptation to install one
on all my various unmetered power supplies and battery packs. However,
there's a catch. The common ground is positive (+), not negative.
You can see that in the schematic:
https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i3/121163002/TB2NoBogpXXXXahXpXXXXXXXXXX_!!121163002.jpg
where the + leads of both the "DC in" and the load are connected
together. The only ways I could make it work in a negative ground
system was either an isolated power source, isolated load, separate
isolated power supply to run the meter, or a DC-DC inverter.


That would be a show stopper in most applications. Got to have high-side
current sensing.


Impediment, not show stopper. What most users have done after turning
the + wire into an impromptu fuse, is to install a small isolated DC
to DC inverter. The problem is that the current measuring part of the
circuit needs to have some source of power to run the devices used. If
one part of that power source happens to be grounded to either the +
or - input of the voltage measuring part, it won't work. So, the
vendor recommends either floating the input or output grounds, using
independent volt and amp meters, or using an isolated power supply to
power the conglomerated meter. I know that one can get such DC to DC
inverters quite cheaply, but I haven't bothered to search for them.
I'll post something if I find one as I think it might be useful for
your battery pack and dynamo.

From a dynamo it's still feasible after things have
been turned to DC because the hub versions usually have two ground-free
terminals. Bottle dynamos unfortunately not. However, when doing MPPT
there already is a micro controller which can then also perform the job
of energy metering.


Yep. I've setup some cheap MPPT solar charge controllers (from eBay).
The better one's have extensive monitoring capabilities, usually on an
LCD or OLED display. If you're counting and budgeting coulombs, it's
a good way to do it.

I would not need that though, maybe just an
indicator of whether the dynamo is able to feed enough for a given light
setting.


Easy enough. The power output of the dynamo is directly proportional
to the RPM and unaffected by the load. The load might change
radically, but the dynamo will only deliver XX watts at XX RPM. You
could just measure the RPM, build a lookup table in some kind of
NVRAM, and display the output power.

Or, you could get fancy, measure the load voltage and current, and
calculate the power needed to run the lights or whatever. Then
compare the input power available, with the average output power
needed. If there's not enough input power available, you need to shed
some load, or pedal harder.

Even that is expendable if you have a voltmeter riding along
with the Li-Ion battery. In my case I'd just have to make sure it won't
get close to 7V where the electronics will eventually shut things off.


If you do go over, you might want to shed the load slowly or you might
lurch forward as pedaling suddenly becomes easier.

Nothing beats trying it on the bench, using a variable speed drill or
similar. I haven't observed a sharp knee effect on any of them so far.
Which probably explains the large number of bulbs I blew out in the 80's
when I had to get somewhere fast.


Yeah, I should do that. However, as I previously mumbled, I'm
overloaded, busy, lazy, and uninspired right now.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #169  
Old March 16th 17, 11:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
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Posts: 1,338
Default More About Lights

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 3:08:00 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:20:43 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

There is no need for 27.5W but there is for 8-10W. That should be
reasonably possible, else the dynamo would have smoked out during their
testing.


If all you're powering are head and tail lights, 10 watts should be
sufficient. However, if you're powering other devices (GPS,
smartphone, rear view camera, electric shifter, fog horn, etc), then
more power is better.


How about if you just wanna go uphill at 20mph?
How many watts are required?
https://www.google.com/search?q=fat+...zJ244tlGbRmAM:


  #170  
Old March 17th 17, 01:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 2,771
Default More About Lights

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 2:13:53 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 16/03/17 16:44, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 5:40:55 PM UTC-4, James wrote:



At creeping speeds (less than 10km/h), I could see holes with a
candle light.


Must be nice to be blessed with such perfect vision! many of us find
that we need a prety bright light in order to see where we're going
and the obstacles to avoid at night. that's not to mention that it's
nice to be able to see critters on theroads or trails in time to slow
or stop to avoid running over them. Personally, I like a supplemental
High beam light so that ican see a longer way down an unlit very dark
road on a moonless night so I can see the skunks at the side of the
road or on the road well BEFORE I startle them. YMMV


If you need a high beam light to see enough not to bump in to things at
night while you are moving at less than 10km/h ( 6 miles/h), you have
really poor eyesight. Do you walk with a white cane?


What do you mean by a high beam light? Personally, I need more than a candle to see holes in wet pavement, blow-down and gravel even when creeping along at less than 10km. YMMV.

-- Jay Beattie.
 




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