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  #191  
Old March 18th 17, 06:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 2,430
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On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 14:08:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Thing is, nobody's demonstrated any need for so much stationary "be
seen" light, beyond the usual "well, it _could_ happen" safety inflation
mentality.


True, but you're thinking like engineering, not marketing. Modern
devices and electronics are crammed full of useless features. For
example, my smartphone has hidden features that I don't know exist,
much less know how to use them. Same with my fancy scientific
calculator, where 99% of my use is simple arithmetic. If you could
customize a product to do only what you need, only what's necessary,
or only what is useful, it wouldn't sell. People buy products based
on features, even if they're useless, not needed, and un-necessary. In
some market sectors, marketing a product is an exercise in feature
pollution. In the trade press, products are compared with tables of
features. Failure to check the a box because some useless feature is
missing will produce an inferior reviewer rating.

A standlight, flashing light, blinding intensity, programmable
settings, battery indicator, laser bug zapper, etc are all useless
features that nobody needs. Yet, they sell products, so they are
included. If you read the Oculus patent (BarryBeams):
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8662697B2/en
you'll find that he threw in a horn and siren, items which are of
dubious value. Why? Because they provided the necessary product
differentiation that makes his light different from the competitors.

If there is a feature of dubious value, it won't be the safety
statistics that determine whether it gets included or trashed. It
will be the sales statistics. If it sells, it's good, no matter how
dumb or useless. It appears that the Pet Rock of bicycling may
eventually be the bicycle lighting system. I can't wait.

We're facing the same mentality regarding our local forest preserve.
Some people want to cut down every dead or dying tree within 100 feet of
any trail because, well, it _could_ fall on somebody and kill them. Sheesh.


Yep. We had a popular local river park closed because it was deemed
hazardous even though the only injury was a drunk transient who tried
to cross the river by doing a balancing act on the very narrow steel
dam.

It's not the falling tree that does the damage. It's the subsequent
litigation.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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  #192  
Old March 18th 17, 06:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 2,430
Default More About Lights

On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 15:45:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Sure. Safety inflation is a real thing. Ten years ago, walking on a
sidewalk did not trigger a need for a luminous vest. Now I see people
wearing those things even on sidewalks.

So why the change?


I blame the internet. One of the benefits of the internet is the
sheer volume of news available. Before the internet, people would get
their news from newspapers, magazines, radio, and TV. There was quite
a bit there, but nothing compared to the volume and detail provided by
the internet. News items that would have been relegated to the back
pages of a newspaper and delays sufficient to make an item irrelivent
were common. Now, we get it all, including the trivia, instantly.

In the past, if someone got hit while walking in the dark, it would
never even make the back pages. It was a non-event that nobody was
interested in reading. Today, it's front page news, along with an
associated conspiracy theory, a call for safer streets, quotes from
unknown experts, and Google Ads for various safety products. In other
words, even minor news sells products. Vest, festooned with
reflectors and flashing LEDs are selling nicely because the GUM (great
unwashed masses) are not aware that walking in the dark is risky.
While the vests are unlikely to solve the problem, they do help and
are cheap enough.

Is it because it's really gotten so much more
dangerous? I doubt it. Pedestrian fatalities did jump up a bit in the
last year for which I find NHTSA data (2014) but they jumped up to a
number less than the one for 2004.


This is older but it looks like the trend is toward fewer pedestrian
fatalities:
https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/ped_bike/pssp/background/psafety.cfm
"About two-thirds (67 percent) of pedestrian fatalities
occurred at night."
Probably dropping because more people are driving these days than
walking.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #193  
Old March 18th 17, 07:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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On 3/18/2017 2:29 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 14:08:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Thing is, nobody's demonstrated any need for so much stationary "be
seen" light, beyond the usual "well, it _could_ happen" safety inflation
mentality.


True, but you're thinking like engineering, not marketing.


I do have too strong of a tendency to do that.

See http://dilbert.com/strip/2014-12-18

That has a place of honor on our refrigerator door.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #194  
Old March 18th 17, 07:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 3,490
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On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:12:02 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/18/2017 2:29 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 14:08:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Thing is, nobody's demonstrated any need for so much stationary "be
seen" light, beyond the usual "well, it _could_ happen" safety inflation
mentality.


True, but you're thinking like engineering, not marketing.


I do have too strong of a tendency to do that.

See http://dilbert.com/strip/2014-12-18

That has a place of honor on our refrigerator door.

--
- Frank Krygowski


Many many years ago I read an article and also books on bicycling that stated thatthe two most dangerous p;aces to ride a bicycle was #1 a parking lot and #2 an intersection. So, you guys are saying that having a bright standlight right where a lot of bicycling accidents happen (at an intersection) is a bad thing? I don't know about you but I like to know that a driver coming towards me at night whilst I'm stopped at an intersection can at least see my bicycle light.
YMMV Why not paint your bike flat black and wear flat black clothing or camouflage clothing if being visible to other road users is of so little consequence even when you're stopped and they are moving?

Cheers
  #195  
Old March 18th 17, 07:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 7,839
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On 3/18/2017 11:46 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

While the vests are unlikely to solve the problem, they do help and
are cheap enough.


Will they 100% solve the problem? Of course not. Will they help?
Definitely. We've had fatalities in Silicon Valley of pedestrians
walking at night on roads with drivers that have not been charged
because they legitimately claimed that they just did not see the
pedestrians.

There's this false narrative out there of "if there's not been a
double-blind study done, then we should ignore common sense, because no
one has conclusively proven XYZ."

There's no study that proves that making yourself more conspicuous at
night (or in the daytime for that matter) makes it less likely that
someone will inadvertently run you over, though in this case you might
want to accept the empirical evidence, extrapolate data from related
relevant studies, and use some common sense. Or not--if you have an
agenda that you're pushing.

In fact there has been at least one study on DRLs for bicycles,
https://www.bikelight.ca/pages/safety-first-study.

If someone is expecting a graph of lumens or lux versus bicycle crashes,
then they will be waiting a long time.

The bottom line is what this article states: "You Have No Excuse Not to
Bike with a Light, Day or Night."
https://www.outsideonline.com/2064501/you-have-no-excuse-not-bike-light-day-or-night.

  #196  
Old March 18th 17, 09:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 3,490
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On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:57:34 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
Snipped
The bottom line is what this article states: "You Have No Excuse Not to
Bike with a Light, Day or Night."
https://www.outsideonline.com/2064501/you-have-no-excuse-not-bike-light-day-or-night.


Except that on a sunny day most nearly every bicycle DRL is TOTALLY INVISIBLE compared to the bicycle + the rider. Heck at night I've seen bicycle bright red rear lights vanish from viwen in a queue of car lights. DRL for a bicycle might be useful on a dull or overcast day or in other dim light but they are NOT all that useful in bright or full daylight light. What's worse is that many who do use a DRL have a very false sense of security because they think a driver will see their light when in fact most lights are not bright enough to be seen easily in daylight and are only seen well AFTER the driver has seen the rider on the bicycle.

Do you get a kickback for selling DRL for bicycles?

Cheers
  #197  
Old March 18th 17, 09:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 7,839
Default More About Lights

On 3/18/2017 2:02 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:57:34 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
Snipped
The bottom line is what this article states: "You Have No Excuse Not to
Bike with a Light, Day or Night."
https://www.outsideonline.com/2064501/you-have-no-excuse-not-bike-light-day-or-night.


Except that on a sunny day most nearly every bicycle DRL is TOTALLY INVISIBLE compared to the bicycle + the rider.


That is demonstrably untrue.

  #198  
Old March 18th 17, 09:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 3,490
Default More About Lights

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 5:21:00 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 3/18/2017 2:02 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:57:34 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
Snipped
The bottom line is what this article states: "You Have No Excuse Not to
Bike with a Light, Day or Night."
https://www.outsideonline.com/2064501/you-have-no-excuse-not-bike-light-day-or-night.


Except that on a sunny day most nearly every bicycle DRL is TOTALLY INVISIBLE compared to the bicycle + the rider.


That is demonstrably untrue.


HAH! I've seen many a bicycle DLR in use in the daytime and I've ONLY noticed the light AFTER I saw the bicycle and the rider. Thus, your assertion is demonstrably FALSE.

Cheers
  #199  
Old March 18th 17, 09:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 7,839
Default More About Lights

On 3/18/2017 2:25 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 5:21:00 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 3/18/2017 2:02 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:57:34 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
Snipped
The bottom line is what this article states: "You Have No Excuse Not to
Bike with a Light, Day or Night."
https://www.outsideonline.com/2064501/you-have-no-excuse-not-bike-light-day-or-night.

Except that on a sunny day most nearly every bicycle DRL is TOTALLY INVISIBLE compared to the bicycle + the rider.


That is demonstrably untrue.


HAH! I've seen many a bicycle DLR in use in the daytime and I've ONLY noticed the light AFTER I saw the bicycle and the rider. Thus, your assertion is demonstrably FALSE.


LOL, the world does not revolve around what YOU have noticed personally.

In the Odense study, cyclists with daytime bicycle lights had 32% fewer
accidents than the control group. The effect was particularly noticeable
during the summer season when the reduction is up to 40%. So it's when
the sun is brighter that there is even more of an advantage to DRLs.

You can see the same thing in your own town. It's especially noticeable
when cyclists are in a bicycle lane, closer to the curb than in a
traffic lane. They tend to blend in with the other stuff on the right
side of the road, such as parked cars.


  #200  
Old March 18th 17, 09:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 3,490
Default More About Lights

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 5:38:36 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 3/18/2017 2:25 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 5:21:00 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 3/18/2017 2:02 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:57:34 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
Snipped
The bottom line is what this article states: "You Have No Excuse Not to
Bike with a Light, Day or Night."
https://www.outsideonline.com/2064501/you-have-no-excuse-not-bike-light-day-or-night.

Except that on a sunny day most nearly every bicycle DRL is TOTALLY INVISIBLE compared to the bicycle + the rider.

That is demonstrably untrue.


HAH! I've seen many a bicycle DLR in use in the daytime and I've ONLY noticed the light AFTER I saw the bicycle and the rider. Thus, your assertion is demonstrably FALSE.


LOL, the world does not revolve around what YOU have noticed personally.

In the Odense study, cyclists with daytime bicycle lights had 32% fewer
accidents than the control group. The effect was particularly noticeable
during the summer season when the reduction is up to 40%. So it's when
the sun is brighter that there is even more of an advantage to DRLs.

You can see the same thing in your own town. It's especially noticeable
when cyclists are in a bicycle lane, closer to the curb than in a
traffic lane. They tend to blend in with the other stuff on the right
side of the road, such as parked cars.


BUNK!
 




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