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  #11  
Old March 11th 17, 07:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doc O'Leary[_20_]
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Posts: 11
Default Shoe Overlap

For your reference, records indicate that
James wrote:

I had a bike with some overlap, but not that much.


I’ve only experienced it on a bike after adding fenders. You never realize just how close the clearance is until you shave off that last little bit!

While riding and cornering it was never an issue, and I suspect the
front wheel doesn't get turned that far to corner during a race. The
tightest corners were undoubtedly doing a U-turn on a road only 5m wide.


There’s that, and there’s probably also the way you take sharper turns.
To avoid pedal contact with the ground, I generally don’t pedal through
them and I keep the inside pedal at the “high noon” position. That
behavior also tends to keep overlap with the tire from being an issue.

It was a problem for me doing a track stand. When I had my custom frame
designed I made sure there was enough clearance.


I only had problems with my fenders when I was doing some very jerky steering while powering through some snow.

--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly


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  #12  
Old March 11th 17, 10:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 1,475
Default Shoe Overlap

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 4:36:16 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:34:32 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 3/10/2017 2:23 PM, Duane wrote:
On 10/03/2017 1:50 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/10/2017 11:14 AM, wrote:
A friend of mine just had a custom bike built and
although it fits
great there is a 2 cm shoe overlap of the front wheel.
The danger of
this is making a hard turn and trying to straighten out
with your foot
then in the way. Criterium racers in particular could do
this because
they only stop pedalling at the absolute apex and then
start again
with the front wheel still turned.

Anyone else had any experience with this? I remember high
siding
because of this. Luckily not in a race to be run over by
a hundred
riders.


A known issue but I am very much surprised that his
builder didn't
discuss that with the client before starting any
metalwork. Usually, the
drawing is reviewed in depth, and revised through several
iterations,
before the build.


That's not unusual with a compact frame is it? My Tarmac is
like that. I found out doing a track stand in traffic and
got my toe stuck between the wheel and frame. ouch.

Though I've never had issues when actually moving as my
wheel doesn't turn that much then.


Right, and Frank touched on that as well.

My concern is that for a custom designed frame, the builder
ought to have discussed this at some point with the rider
before the build. It's not 'wrong', but some riders really
hate it and will accept a longer top tube rather than
overlap if given the choice.

At any rate a custom frame shouldn't have surprises.


One can only speculate why one would buy a custom frame if it didn't
fit, exactly, one's requirements. One can only assume that the O.P.'s
friend didn't know exactly what he wanted.
--


John, When you're getting a custom made bike from a foreign country you're assuming that they know what they're doing since you have to rely on their reputation a great deal.

When after the frame and fork is delivered you STILL don't know much about it until it is completely assembled and you are able to test it out.

So how do you NOT buy a pig in a poke? Just three degrees more rake and there wouldn't have been any problem.
  #13  
Old March 11th 17, 11:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 8,153
Default Shoe Overlap

On 3/11/2017 3:26 PM, wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 4:36:16 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:34:32 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 3/10/2017 2:23 PM, Duane wrote:
On 10/03/2017 1:50 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/10/2017 11:14 AM,
wrote:
A friend of mine just had a custom bike built and
although it fits
great there is a 2 cm shoe overlap of the front wheel.
The danger of
this is making a hard turn and trying to straighten out
with your foot
then in the way. Criterium racers in particular could do
this because
they only stop pedalling at the absolute apex and then
start again
with the front wheel still turned.

Anyone else had any experience with this? I remember high
siding
because of this. Luckily not in a race to be run over by
a hundred
riders.


A known issue but I am very much surprised that his
builder didn't
discuss that with the client before starting any
metalwork. Usually, the
drawing is reviewed in depth, and revised through several
iterations,
before the build.


That's not unusual with a compact frame is it? My Tarmac is
like that. I found out doing a track stand in traffic and
got my toe stuck between the wheel and frame. ouch.

Though I've never had issues when actually moving as my
wheel doesn't turn that much then.

Right, and Frank touched on that as well.

My concern is that for a custom designed frame, the builder
ought to have discussed this at some point with the rider
before the build. It's not 'wrong', but some riders really
hate it and will accept a longer top tube rather than
overlap if given the choice.

At any rate a custom frame shouldn't have surprises.


One can only speculate why one would buy a custom frame if it didn't
fit, exactly, one's requirements. One can only assume that the O.P.'s
friend didn't know exactly what he wanted.
--


John, When you're getting a custom made bike from a foreign country you're assuming that they know what they're doing since you have to rely on their reputation a great deal.

When after the frame and fork is delivered you STILL don't know much about it until it is completely assembled and you are able to test it out.

So how do you NOT buy a pig in a poke? Just three degrees more rake and there wouldn't have been any problem.


Buyer didn't review the drawing ?

small point = head angle is in degrees, fork rake is in mm
and neither can be changed without other changes.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #14  
Old March 12th 17, 01:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 34
Default Shoe Overlap

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 6:14:43 PM UTC+1, wrote:
A friend of mine just had a custom bike built and although it fits great there is a 2 cm shoe overlap of the front wheel. The danger of this is making a hard turn and trying to straighten out with your foot then in the way. Criterium racers in particular could do this because they only stop pedalling at the absolute apex and then start again with the front wheel still turned.

Anyone else had any experience with this? I remember high siding because of this. Luckily not in a race to be run over by a hundred riders.


Custom build and shoe overlap? I would want my money back.

Lou
  #15  
Old March 12th 17, 10:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 1,475
Default Shoe Overlap

On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 5:02:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 6:14:43 PM UTC+1, wrote:
A friend of mine just had a custom bike built and although it fits great there is a 2 cm shoe overlap of the front wheel. The danger of this is making a hard turn and trying to straighten out with your foot then in the way. Criterium racers in particular could do this because they only stop pedalling at the absolute apex and then start again with the front wheel still turned.

Anyone else had any experience with this? I remember high siding because of this. Luckily not in a race to be run over by a hundred riders.


Custom build and shoe overlap? I would want my money back.


Turns out that shoe overlap is common. Especially among pro climbers who are small and have short arms.

So why would you want your money back? Tell us HOW this overlap can have any effect? I had an old Motobecane that had overlap. I managed to crash the bike because of this but at a standstill. Would you want your money back from Motobecane?

Do you suppose a company that has been building custom bikes for 60 years doesn't know what they're doing?

I'm not trying to insult you. I'm suggesting that if you don't have any direct experience with this sort of thing just making comments isn't helpful.
  #16  
Old March 12th 17, 10:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 1,475
Default Shoe Overlap

On Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 2:20:11 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/11/2017 3:26 PM, wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 4:36:16 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:34:32 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 3/10/2017 2:23 PM, Duane wrote:
On 10/03/2017 1:50 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/10/2017 11:14 AM,
wrote:
A friend of mine just had a custom bike built and
although it fits
great there is a 2 cm shoe overlap of the front wheel.
The danger of
this is making a hard turn and trying to straighten out
with your foot
then in the way. Criterium racers in particular could do
this because
they only stop pedalling at the absolute apex and then
start again
with the front wheel still turned.

Anyone else had any experience with this? I remember high
siding
because of this. Luckily not in a race to be run over by
a hundred
riders.


A known issue but I am very much surprised that his
builder didn't
discuss that with the client before starting any
metalwork. Usually, the
drawing is reviewed in depth, and revised through several
iterations,
before the build.


That's not unusual with a compact frame is it? My Tarmac is
like that. I found out doing a track stand in traffic and
got my toe stuck between the wheel and frame. ouch.

Though I've never had issues when actually moving as my
wheel doesn't turn that much then.

Right, and Frank touched on that as well.

My concern is that for a custom designed frame, the builder
ought to have discussed this at some point with the rider
before the build. It's not 'wrong', but some riders really
hate it and will accept a longer top tube rather than
overlap if given the choice.

At any rate a custom frame shouldn't have surprises.

One can only speculate why one would buy a custom frame if it didn't
fit, exactly, one's requirements. One can only assume that the O.P.'s
friend didn't know exactly what he wanted.
--


John, When you're getting a custom made bike from a foreign country you're assuming that they know what they're doing since you have to rely on their reputation a great deal.

When after the frame and fork is delivered you STILL don't know much about it until it is completely assembled and you are able to test it out.

So how do you NOT buy a pig in a poke? Just three degrees more rake and there wouldn't have been any problem.


Buyer didn't review the drawing ?

small point = head angle is in degrees, fork rake is in mm
and neither can be changed without other changes.


You don't get a drawing. You get a list of measurements. And it doesn't make much sense unless you have the tools to draft it out for yourself and know exactly what to look for.

But it would seem to me that you could add just a few degrees of rake and reduce the increased trail from this and the handling would stay the same. Though the wheelbase would be a touch longer.
  #18  
Old March 13th 17, 03:46 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 4,251
Default Shoe Overlap

On 3/12/2017 8:02 AM, wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 6:14:43 PM UTC+1, wrote:
A friend of mine just had a custom bike built and although it fits great there is a 2 cm shoe overlap of the front wheel. The danger of this is making a hard turn and trying to straighten out with your foot then in the way. Criterium racers in particular could do this because they only stop pedalling at the absolute apex and then start again with the front wheel still turned.

Anyone else had any experience with this? I remember high siding because of this. Luckily not in a race to be run over by a hundred riders.


Custom build and shoe overlap? I would want my money back.


I think I'd want my money back only if I had specified "no overlap."
But I probably wouldn't bother to specify that. It just doesn't bother me.

It does perhaps illustrate an important point. When buying a custom
frame, do be sure to specify everything that's important to you.

Our now-ancient tandem was custom built for us. It was delayed for many
months. When we were finally called to pick it up, I found it was
painted the wrong color, it lacked some water bottle mounts and other
minor braze-ons I'd wanted, lacked the clear coat over the paint, and
(since I'd ordered the bike built up) had some equipment mistakes. The
most serious of those was a Phil rear hub that lacked left side
threading for a brake.

(Actually, the most serious problem was fitting track gauge instead of
tandem gauge fork blades. But I didn't know that until decades later,
when the forks snapped off.)

Anyway, Jim Bradford (the builder) said "Look, I'm leaving for my
honeymoon in a couple weeks. Do you want the bike or not?" I grumped
and took the bike. But if I'd given the guy written specifications for
every detail on some sort of official form, I might have avoided some
unpleasantness.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #19  
Old March 13th 17, 09:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 34
Default Shoe Overlap

On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 10:29:10 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 5:02:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 6:14:43 PM UTC+1, wrote:
A friend of mine just had a custom bike built and although it fits great there is a 2 cm shoe overlap of the front wheel. The danger of this is making a hard turn and trying to straighten out with your foot then in the way. Criterium racers in particular could do this because they only stop pedalling at the absolute apex and then start again with the front wheel still turned.

Anyone else had any experience with this? I remember high siding because of this. Luckily not in a race to be run over by a hundred riders.


Custom build and shoe overlap? I would want my money back.


Turns out that shoe overlap is common. Especially among pro climbers who are small and have short arms.

So why would you want your money back? Tell us HOW this overlap can have any effect? I had an old Motobecane that had overlap. I managed to crash the bike because of this but at a standstill. Would you want your money back from Motobecane?

Do you suppose a company that has been building custom bikes for 60 years doesn't know what they're doing?

I'm not trying to insult you. I'm suggesting that if you don't have any direct experience with this sort of thing just making comments isn't helpful..


Overlap is not uncommon but still unwanted and a nuisance from time to time.. You can design around it and that is what I expect when you have a bike custom build. I had two bikes with an overlap: a commuter bike and my first cross bike both of the shelf bikes. When balancing the commuter bike at a stop light the overlap bothered me. With my first cross bike it was more of a pain, because you have a lot of sharp slow speed turns. Although not the main reason to sell the bikes but in the next year model of the cross bike they solved this issue together with the heel clearance (also a design flaw). The perfect handling didn't noticeably changed. From a builder with 60 years experience I would expect that they would mention this if the cutomer forgot this and ask if this would be a problem.

Lou
  #20  
Old March 13th 17, 02:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 1,475
Default Shoe Overlap

On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 3:23:11 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 13/03/17 08:33, wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 2:20:11 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:




Buyer didn't review the drawing ?

small point = head angle is in degrees, fork rake is in mm and
neither can be changed without other changes.


You don't get a drawing. You get a list of measurements. And it
doesn't make much sense unless you have the tools to draft it out for
yourself and know exactly what to look for.

But it would seem to me that you could add just a few degrees of rake
and reduce the increased trail from this and the handling would stay
the same. Though the wheelbase would be a touch longer.


I got drawings. Several iterations of them too.

--
JS


From whom? American buildings can use drafting software that other countries find too expensive to use since you have to have a computer and a printer and the drafting software. When you get 10 orders for a custom build a week and you have for the last 50 years it's unlikely that you'd see a need for a computer to do your bookkeeping as is par for the course in America.
 




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