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  #21  
Old March 13th 17, 01:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default Shoe Overlap

On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 7:46:47 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/12/2017 8:02 AM, wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 6:14:43 PM UTC+1, wrote:
A friend of mine just had a custom bike built and although it fits great there is a 2 cm shoe overlap of the front wheel. The danger of this is making a hard turn and trying to straighten out with your foot then in the way. Criterium racers in particular could do this because they only stop pedalling at the absolute apex and then start again with the front wheel still turned.

Anyone else had any experience with this? I remember high siding because of this. Luckily not in a race to be run over by a hundred riders.


Custom build and shoe overlap? I would want my money back.


I think I'd want my money back only if I had specified "no overlap."
But I probably wouldn't bother to specify that. It just doesn't bother me.

It does perhaps illustrate an important point. When buying a custom
frame, do be sure to specify everything that's important to you.

Our now-ancient tandem was custom built for us. It was delayed for many
months. When we were finally called to pick it up, I found it was
painted the wrong color, it lacked some water bottle mounts and other
minor braze-ons I'd wanted, lacked the clear coat over the paint, and
(since I'd ordered the bike built up) had some equipment mistakes. The
most serious of those was a Phil rear hub that lacked left side
threading for a brake.

(Actually, the most serious problem was fitting track gauge instead of
tandem gauge fork blades. But I didn't know that until decades later,
when the forks snapped off.)

Anyway, Jim Bradford (the builder) said "Look, I'm leaving for my
honeymoon in a couple weeks. Do you want the bike or not?" I grumped
and took the bike. But if I'd given the guy written specifications for
every detail on some sort of official form, I might have avoided some
unpleasantness.

--
- Frank Krygowski


I usually don't take my feet out at a stop light. I balance.

I did a fall from overlap because I was balancing with my cranks fore and aft. After that I didn't do that at a near stop. I have them up and down so that I have better leverage to click out and put a foot down. I might have overlap now and don't even know it.
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  #22  
Old March 13th 17, 01:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 2,652
Default Shoe Overlap

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 1:08:15 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 10:29:10 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 5:02:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 6:14:43 PM UTC+1, wrote:
A friend of mine just had a custom bike built and although it fits great there is a 2 cm shoe overlap of the front wheel. The danger of this is making a hard turn and trying to straighten out with your foot then in the way. Criterium racers in particular could do this because they only stop pedalling at the absolute apex and then start again with the front wheel still turned.

Anyone else had any experience with this? I remember high siding because of this. Luckily not in a race to be run over by a hundred riders.

Custom build and shoe overlap? I would want my money back.


Turns out that shoe overlap is common. Especially among pro climbers who are small and have short arms.

So why would you want your money back? Tell us HOW this overlap can have any effect? I had an old Motobecane that had overlap. I managed to crash the bike because of this but at a standstill. Would you want your money back from Motobecane?

Do you suppose a company that has been building custom bikes for 60 years doesn't know what they're doing?

I'm not trying to insult you. I'm suggesting that if you don't have any direct experience with this sort of thing just making comments isn't helpful.


Overlap is not uncommon but still unwanted and a nuisance from time to time. You can design around it and that is what I expect when you have a bike custom build. I had two bikes with an overlap: a commuter bike and my first cross bike both of the shelf bikes. When balancing the commuter bike at a stop light the overlap bothered me. With my first cross bike it was more of a pain, because you have a lot of sharp slow speed turns. Although not the main reason to sell the bikes but in the next year model of the cross bike they solved this issue together with the heel clearance (also a design flaw). The perfect handling didn't noticeably changed. From a builder with 60 years experience I would expect that they would mention this if the cutomer forgot this and ask if this would be a problem.

Lou


I expect that my Redline cross bike has overlap but I've never had a problem with it because I corner with the outside pedal down to reduce center-of-gravity. Perhaps my Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra does as well but as I noted in the last posting I balance with my body sitting now and not standing. So I can had a pedal down or almost down so that overlap is never a problem.
  #23  
Old March 13th 17, 04:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
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Posts: 1,116
Default Shoe Overlap


So why would you want your money back? Tell us HOW this overlap can have any effect? I had an old Motobecane that had overlap. I managed to crash the bike because of this but at a standstill. Would you want your money back from Motobecane?


LOL Good luck! Seen bikesdirect.com? If you want your money back I hope it's from some company -other- than Motobecane

  #24  
Old March 13th 17, 05:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 8,669
Default Shoe Overlap

On 3/12/2017 4:29 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 5:02:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 6:14:43 PM UTC+1, wrote:
A friend of mine just had a custom bike built and although it fits great there is a 2 cm shoe overlap of the front wheel. The danger of this is making a hard turn and trying to straighten out with your foot then in the way. Criterium racers in particular could do this because they only stop pedalling at the absolute apex and then start again with the front wheel still turned.

Anyone else had any experience with this? I remember high siding because of this. Luckily not in a race to be run over by a hundred riders.


Custom build and shoe overlap? I would want my money back.


Turns out that shoe overlap is common. Especially among pro climbers who are small and have short arms.

So why would you want your money back? Tell us HOW this overlap can have any effect? I had an old Motobecane that had overlap. I managed to crash the bike because of this but at a standstill. Would you want your money back from Motobecane?

Do you suppose a company that has been building custom bikes for 60 years doesn't know what they're doing?

I'm not trying to insult you. I'm suggesting that if you don't have any direct experience with this sort of thing just making comments isn't helpful.


Sounds like a communications error of the first order.

For example, 56cm is a great frame size, I ride one myself.
But a rider who expected a 52 would be surprised to find a
56. Ditto for a 'surprise' toeclip overlap on a custom frame.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #25  
Old March 14th 17, 01:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
ERSHC
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Posts: 25
Default Shoe Overlap

On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 14:29:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 5:02:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 6:14:43 PM UTC+1, wrote:
A friend of mine just had a custom bike built and although it fits great there is a 2 cm shoe overlap of the front wheel. The danger of this is making a hard turn and trying to straighten out with your foot then in the way. Criterium racers in particular could do this because they only stop pedalling at the absolute apex and then start again with the front wheel still turned.

Anyone else had any experience with this? I remember high siding because of this. Luckily not in a race to be run over by a hundred riders.


Custom build and shoe overlap? I would want my money back.


Turns out that shoe overlap is common. Especially among pro climbers who are small and have short arms.

So why would you want your money back? Tell us HOW this overlap can have any effect? I had an old Motobecane that had overlap. I managed to crash the bike because of this but at a standstill. Would you want your money back from Motobecane?

Do you suppose a company that has been building custom bikes for 60 years doesn't know what they're doing?

I'm not trying to insult you. I'm suggesting that if you don't have any direct experience with this sort of thing just making comments isn't helpful.


It may make the bike bike not-race-legal.

UCI CLARIFICATION GUIDE OF THE UCI TECHNICAL REGULATION quotes

ARTICLE 1.3.009: "The bicycle should have handlebars which allow it to
be ridden and manoeuvred in any circumstances and in complete safety.”

and adds the comentary: " ... Bicycles shall have at least 89 mm
clearance between the pedal spindle and the front tyre when turned to
any position in accordance with the requirements of the EN14781 safety
standard to not be hindered when turning."
  #26  
Old March 14th 17, 01:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 2,924
Default Shoe Overlap

On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 22:46:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/12/2017 8:02 AM, wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 6:14:43 PM UTC+1, wrote:
A friend of mine just had a custom bike built and although it fits great there is a 2 cm shoe overlap of the front wheel. The danger of this is making a hard turn and trying to straighten out with your foot then in the way. Criterium racers in particular could do this because they only stop pedalling at the absolute apex and then start again with the front wheel still turned.

Anyone else had any experience with this? I remember high siding because of this. Luckily not in a race to be run over by a hundred riders.


Custom build and shoe overlap? I would want my money back.


I think I'd want my money back only if I had specified "no overlap."
But I probably wouldn't bother to specify that. It just doesn't bother me.

It does perhaps illustrate an important point. When buying a custom
frame, do be sure to specify everything that's important to you.

Our now-ancient tandem was custom built for us. It was delayed for many
months. When we were finally called to pick it up, I found it was
painted the wrong color, it lacked some water bottle mounts and other
minor braze-ons I'd wanted, lacked the clear coat over the paint, and
(since I'd ordered the bike built up) had some equipment mistakes. The
most serious of those was a Phil rear hub that lacked left side
threading for a brake.

(Actually, the most serious problem was fitting track gauge instead of
tandem gauge fork blades. But I didn't know that until decades later,
when the forks snapped off.)

Anyway, Jim Bradford (the builder) said "Look, I'm leaving for my
honeymoon in a couple weeks. Do you want the bike or not?" I grumped
and took the bike. But if I'd given the guy written specifications for
every detail on some sort of official form, I might have avoided some
unpleasantness.


I'm not sure that a frame, with a 54 cm (center to center) top tube,
700c wheels and normal trail, can be built without toe overlap.

Of course, with a higher bottom bracket toe clearance increases but,
from measuring my own bike, the B.B would have to be 3" higher which
would probably end up with pretty strange looking bicycle :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #27  
Old March 14th 17, 02:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 4,952
Default Shoe Overlap

On 3/13/2017 9:33 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 22:46:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/12/2017 8:02 AM, wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 6:14:43 PM UTC+1, wrote:
A friend of mine just had a custom bike built and although it fits great there is a 2 cm shoe overlap of the front wheel. The danger of this is making a hard turn and trying to straighten out with your foot then in the way. Criterium racers in particular could do this because they only stop pedalling at the absolute apex and then start again with the front wheel still turned.

Anyone else had any experience with this? I remember high siding because of this. Luckily not in a race to be run over by a hundred riders.

Custom build and shoe overlap? I would want my money back.


I think I'd want my money back only if I had specified "no overlap."
But I probably wouldn't bother to specify that. It just doesn't bother me.

It does perhaps illustrate an important point. When buying a custom
frame, do be sure to specify everything that's important to you.

Our now-ancient tandem was custom built for us. It was delayed for many
months. When we were finally called to pick it up, I found it was
painted the wrong color, it lacked some water bottle mounts and other
minor braze-ons I'd wanted, lacked the clear coat over the paint, and
(since I'd ordered the bike built up) had some equipment mistakes. The
most serious of those was a Phil rear hub that lacked left side
threading for a brake.

(Actually, the most serious problem was fitting track gauge instead of
tandem gauge fork blades. But I didn't know that until decades later,
when the forks snapped off.)

Anyway, Jim Bradford (the builder) said "Look, I'm leaving for my
honeymoon in a couple weeks. Do you want the bike or not?" I grumped
and took the bike. But if I'd given the guy written specifications for
every detail on some sort of official form, I might have avoided some
unpleasantness.


I'm not sure that a frame, with a 54 cm (center to center) top tube,
700c wheels and normal trail, can be built without toe overlap.

Of course, with a higher bottom bracket toe clearance increases but,
from measuring my own bike, the B.B would have to be 3" higher which
would probably end up with pretty strange looking bicycle :-)


I think that's the reason that somewhere around 1985, Bill Boston then
Georgena Terry started building road bikes with smaller front wheels.



--
- Frank Krygowski
  #28  
Old March 14th 17, 02:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,652
Default Shoe Overlap

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 6:34:04 PM UTC-7, ERSHC wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 14:29:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 5:02:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 6:14:43 PM UTC+1, wrote:
A friend of mine just had a custom bike built and although it fits great there is a 2 cm shoe overlap of the front wheel. The danger of this is making a hard turn and trying to straighten out with your foot then in the way. Criterium racers in particular could do this because they only stop pedalling at the absolute apex and then start again with the front wheel still turned.

Anyone else had any experience with this? I remember high siding because of this. Luckily not in a race to be run over by a hundred riders.

Custom build and shoe overlap? I would want my money back.


Turns out that shoe overlap is common. Especially among pro climbers who are small and have short arms.

So why would you want your money back? Tell us HOW this overlap can have any effect? I had an old Motobecane that had overlap. I managed to crash the bike because of this but at a standstill. Would you want your money back from Motobecane?

Do you suppose a company that has been building custom bikes for 60 years doesn't know what they're doing?

I'm not trying to insult you. I'm suggesting that if you don't have any direct experience with this sort of thing just making comments isn't helpful.


It may make the bike bike not-race-legal.

UCI CLARIFICATION GUIDE OF THE UCI TECHNICAL REGULATION quotes

ARTICLE 1.3.009: "The bicycle should have handlebars which allow it to
be ridden and manoeuvred in any circumstances and in complete safety.”

and adds the comentary: " ... Bicycles shall have at least 89 mm
clearance between the pedal spindle and the front tyre when turned to
any position in accordance with the requirements of the EN14781 safety
standard to not be hindered when turning."


What does it say about mounting 175 mm cranks on that bike with 89mm clearance?
  #29  
Old March 14th 17, 04:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
ERSHC
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Posts: 25
Default Shoe Overlap

On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:47:39 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 6:34:04 PM UTC-7, ERSHC wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 14:29:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:
On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 5:02:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:


Custom build and shoe overlap? I would want my money back.

Turns out that shoe overlap is common. Especially among pro climbers who are small and have short arms.

So why would you want your money back? Tell us HOW this overlap can have any effect? I had an old Motobecane that had overlap. I managed to crash the bike because of this but at a standstill. Would you want your money back from Motobecane?

Do you suppose a company that has been building custom bikes for 60 years doesn't know what they're doing?

I'm not trying to insult you. I'm suggesting that if you don't have any direct experience with this sort of thing just making comments isn't helpful.


It may make the bike bike not-race-legal.

UCI CLARIFICATION GUIDE OF THE UCI TECHNICAL REGULATION quotes

ARTICLE 1.3.009: "The bicycle should have handlebars which allow it to
be ridden and manoeuvred in any circumstances and in complete safety.”

and adds the comentary: " ... Bicycles shall have at least 89 mm
clearance between the pedal spindle and the front tyre when turned to
any position in accordance with the requirements of the EN14781 safety
standard to not be hindered when turning."


What does it say about mounting 175 mm cranks on that bike with 89mm clearance?


If it has 89mm clearance with 175s then you can ride it with 175s. If
it has only 90 mm clearance with 165s then you can't ride it with
175s. You don't measure a frame, you measure a complete bike. Legal
with 165 mm cranks and not legal with 175s is possible. One might
question the sanity of some of the UCI rules, and of course they don't
apply to non-racers, but thems the rules none the less. So if you
spring for a custom bike with the intent to race it, and are not
allowed to race, you might reasonably want your money back. Assuming,
of course, the builder knew your intent and crank size.
  #30  
Old March 14th 17, 05:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 2,924
Default Shoe Overlap

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 01:31:12 -0000 (UTC), ERSHC
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 14:29:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 5:02:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 6:14:43 PM UTC+1, wrote:
A friend of mine just had a custom bike built and although it fits great there is a 2 cm shoe overlap of the front wheel. The danger of this is making a hard turn and trying to straighten out with your foot then in the way. Criterium racers in particular could do this because they only stop pedalling at the absolute apex and then start again with the front wheel still turned.

Anyone else had any experience with this? I remember high siding because of this. Luckily not in a race to be run over by a hundred riders.

Custom build and shoe overlap? I would want my money back.


Turns out that shoe overlap is common. Especially among pro climbers who are small and have short arms.

So why would you want your money back? Tell us HOW this overlap can have any effect? I had an old Motobecane that had overlap. I managed to crash the bike because of this but at a standstill. Would you want your money back from Motobecane?

Do you suppose a company that has been building custom bikes for 60 years doesn't know what they're doing?

I'm not trying to insult you. I'm suggesting that if you don't have any direct experience with this sort of thing just making comments isn't helpful.


It may make the bike bike not-race-legal.

UCI CLARIFICATION GUIDE OF THE UCI TECHNICAL REGULATION quotes

ARTICLE 1.3.009: "The bicycle should have handlebars which allow it to
be ridden and manoeuvred in any circumstances and in complete safety.

and adds the comentary: " ... Bicycles shall have at least 89 mm
clearance between the pedal spindle and the front tyre when turned to
any position in accordance with the requirements of the EN14781 safety
standard to not be hindered when turning."


I just measured one of my bicycles and it is 60cm from the BB axle to
front wheel axle, well within the 53 - 65cm limits. It has 170mm crank
arms and 700c - 25 tires and when I measure the distance between the
pedal axle and the front tire it is 90mm.

Then I clipped a shoe into the pedal and the distance from the pedal
axle to the toe of the shoe is 11.5cm. Shoe size is 42.

So a legal UCI bike may have toe overlap.
--
Cheers,

John B.

 




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