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torque wrench issues



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 23rd 17, 10:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Benderthe.evilrobot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 128
Default torque wrench issues


"Emanuel Berg" wrote in message
...
I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench,
28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in
Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if
that is China or not

It has a locking screw, a torque setting
handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some
English unit I take it?) - it also as a
locking lever on top just like an ordinary
ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and
anti-clockwise.

The torques only work in the
clockwise direction. So if the
locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way,
it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in
the manual it says:

Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo
nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will
damage the ratchet mechanism and the
calibrated settings.

So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use
the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which
would require a left thread? (And it would be
just a long shaft, with the torque not
in effect.)

As for me, I don't plan using it for anything
but as a torque, because I have other, less
expensive ratchets and spanners to do the
everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know
what it means.

It also came with a certificate with data on
the calibration and in the manual it says it
should be recalibrated at least every
12 months.


Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter.

Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant
and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque.


---
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http://www.avg.com

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  #2  
Old April 24th 17, 01:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 445
Default torque wrench issues

On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:


"Emanuel Berg" wrote in message
...
I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench,
28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in
Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if
that is China or not

It has a locking screw, a torque setting
handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some
English unit I take it?) - it also as a
locking lever on top just like an ordinary
ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and
anti-clockwise.

The torques only work in the
clockwise direction. So if the
locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way,
it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in
the manual it says:

Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo
nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will
damage the ratchet mechanism and the
calibrated settings.

So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use
the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which
would require a left thread? (And it would be
just a long shaft, with the torque not
in effect.)

As for me, I don't plan using it for anything
but as a torque, because I have other, less
expensive ratchets and spanners to do the
everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know
what it means.

It also came with a certificate with data on
the calibration and in the manual it says it
should be recalibrated at least every
12 months.


Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter.

Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant
and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as
clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given
cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a
torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray
lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off
the end.
However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but
on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may
be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt"
Also, some of the wrenching I have done on bicycles has revealed some
terribly poor quality materials (can anyone say "flying pigeon"?)

There have been tests done which indicate oiled threads do not affect
bolt tension and give the most consistent torque /tension results
(10W40 oil).Anti-sieze can increase the tension on a bolt by up to 71%
at the same measured torque.
Moly paste used as a lubricant was somewhere in betweeen - but
antiseize was non-linear in it;s results as the friction of the
threads did not increase with the tension on the bolt.

See http://benmlee.com/4runner/threads/threads.htm for the complete
results.

Even the difference between a cadmium plated bolt, a shiny zinc
plated bolt and a black oxide finished alloy bolt can be measured and
MAY be more significant than the difference between oiled and dry.
Also the existance or non-existance of a washer under the head of the
bolt or the nut can affect the tension on a bolt at a given torque -
or even the difference between a mild steel or a hard washer.

For a VERY accurate "torque spec", the rod bearing bolts, for
instance, on a high performance racing engine, are torqued to a
pre-determined stretch. The bolt is measured before installation, and
then is torqued until it measures a precise amount longer than the
initial measurement. This requires precision bolts - and the bolts
MUST NEVER BE RE-USED.
Under torquing (insufficient stretch) on these bolts will cause the
bolts to break in use.

I'm not aware of any "torque to yield" bolts in use on bicycles.


  #4  
Old April 24th 17, 02:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 445
Default torque wrench issues

On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 19:37:28 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 4/23/2017 7:19 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:
"Emanuel Berg" wrote in message
...


-snip actual content-

I'm not aware of any "torque to yield" bolts in use on bicycles.


Didn't you say you wrenched on Flying Pigeon with those
fasteners made from past-date cheese?

Soft ripe Limburger - Those things STINK!!!
  #5  
Old April 24th 17, 02:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 331
Default torque wrench issues

On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:


"Emanuel Berg" wrote in message
...
I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench,
28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in
Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if
that is China or not

It has a locking screw, a torque setting
handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some
English unit I take it?) - it also as a
locking lever on top just like an ordinary
ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and
anti-clockwise.

The torques only work in the
clockwise direction. So if the
locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way,
it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in
the manual it says:

Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo
nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will
damage the ratchet mechanism and the
calibrated settings.

So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use
the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which
would require a left thread? (And it would be
just a long shaft, with the torque not
in effect.)

As for me, I don't plan using it for anything
but as a torque, because I have other, less
expensive ratchets and spanners to do the
everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know
what it means.

It also came with a certificate with data on
the calibration and in the manual it says it
should be recalibrated at least every
12 months.


Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter.

Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant
and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque.


Tightening fasteners is a far more complex matter then just putting a
wrench on them and turning them.

For heavily loaded fasteners Caterpillar recommends (1) clean the
fastener, (2) lubricate the fastener (3) torque to specification in
three steps, i.e. first torque all of the fasteners to 40% torque,
then to 70% torque and then to final torque.

I worked on a radial aircraft engine that required the bolts that held
the three piece crankshaft together be tightened to a specific bolt
stretch. No torque specified. Measure the length of the bolt and then
tighten it until it stretched the required amount.

A White Superior stationary engine had a special "bolt jack"to tighten
head bolts. A small hydraulic jack like device. You put the nut on the
bolt and then installed the jack. Then jack the bolt to a specified
pressure on the hydraulic gauge and then tightened the nut finger
tight and remove the jack.
  #6  
Old April 24th 17, 02:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,530
Default torque wrench issues

On 24/04/17 11:06, John B Slocomb wrote:


Tightening fasteners is a far more complex matter then just putting a
wrench on them and turning them.

For heavily loaded fasteners Caterpillar recommends (1) clean the
fastener, (2) lubricate the fastener (3) torque to specification in
three steps, i.e. first torque all of the fasteners to 40% torque,
then to 70% torque and then to final torque.



For the bolts on head stem clamps I usually do something similar. If
you tighten one steerer clamp bolt to 7Nm and then the other to the same
torque, the first one is likely now at much less than 7Nm.

--
JS
  #7  
Old April 24th 17, 09:45 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 331
Default torque wrench issues

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:30:56 +1000, James
wrote:

On 24/04/17 11:06, John B Slocomb wrote:


Tightening fasteners is a far more complex matter then just putting a
wrench on them and turning them.

For heavily loaded fasteners Caterpillar recommends (1) clean the
fastener, (2) lubricate the fastener (3) torque to specification in
three steps, i.e. first torque all of the fasteners to 40% torque,
then to 70% torque and then to final torque.



For the bolts on head stem clamps I usually do something similar. If
you tighten one steerer clamp bolt to 7Nm and then the other to the same
torque, the first one is likely now at much less than 7Nm.


Certainly.

I believe that Shimano recommends tightening the two bolts, that hold
the off-side pedal, on repeatedly. First one and then the other until
they are both tight?
  #8  
Old April 24th 17, 02:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,959
Default torque wrench issues

On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 5:19:49 PM UTC-7, wrote:

Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as
clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given
cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a
torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray
lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off
the end.
However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but
on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may
be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt"
Also, some of the wrenching I have done on bicycles has revealed some
terribly poor quality materials (can anyone say "flying pigeon"?)

There have been tests done which indicate oiled threads do not affect
bolt tension and give the most consistent torque /tension results
(10W40 oil).Anti-sieze can increase the tension on a bolt by up to 71%
at the same measured torque.
Moly paste used as a lubricant was somewhere in betweeen - but
antiseize was non-linear in it;s results as the friction of the
threads did not increase with the tension on the bolt.

See http://benmlee.com/4runner/threads/threads.htm for the complete
results.

Even the difference between a cadmium plated bolt, a shiny zinc
plated bolt and a black oxide finished alloy bolt can be measured and
MAY be more significant than the difference between oiled and dry.
Also the existance or non-existance of a washer under the head of the
bolt or the nut can affect the tension on a bolt at a given torque -
or even the difference between a mild steel or a hard washer.

For a VERY accurate "torque spec", the rod bearing bolts, for
instance, on a high performance racing engine, are torqued to a
pre-determined stretch. The bolt is measured before installation, and
then is torqued until it measures a precise amount longer than the
initial measurement. This requires precision bolts - and the bolts
MUST NEVER BE RE-USED.
Under torquing (insufficient stretch) on these bolts will cause the
bolts to break in use.

I'm not aware of any "torque to yield" bolts in use on bicycles.


Now that you mention it I do remember that on cars, way back when, you would torque them them to a low setting and then run the engine until warm and then torque everything down to prevent the BMW problem of blowing off head bolts from heat expansion causing the yield of the head bolts to be exceeded.

It seems to me I can even remember engines blowing head gaskets if you didn't follow these procedures.

  #9  
Old April 24th 17, 05:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 445
Default torque wrench issues

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 06:53:10 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 5:19:49 PM UTC-7, wrote:

Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as
clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given
cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a
torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray
lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off
the end.
However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but
on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may
be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt"
Also, some of the wrenching I have done on bicycles has revealed some
terribly poor quality materials (can anyone say "flying pigeon"?)

There have been tests done which indicate oiled threads do not affect
bolt tension and give the most consistent torque /tension results
(10W40 oil).Anti-sieze can increase the tension on a bolt by up to 71%
at the same measured torque.
Moly paste used as a lubricant was somewhere in betweeen - but
antiseize was non-linear in it;s results as the friction of the
threads did not increase with the tension on the bolt.

See
http://benmlee.com/4runner/threads/threads.htm for the complete
results.

Even the difference between a cadmium plated bolt, a shiny zinc
plated bolt and a black oxide finished alloy bolt can be measured and
MAY be more significant than the difference between oiled and dry.
Also the existance or non-existance of a washer under the head of the
bolt or the nut can affect the tension on a bolt at a given torque -
or even the difference between a mild steel or a hard washer.

For a VERY accurate "torque spec", the rod bearing bolts, for
instance, on a high performance racing engine, are torqued to a
pre-determined stretch. The bolt is measured before installation, and
then is torqued until it measures a precise amount longer than the
initial measurement. This requires precision bolts - and the bolts
MUST NEVER BE RE-USED.
Under torquing (insufficient stretch) on these bolts will cause the
bolts to break in use.

I'm not aware of any "torque to yield" bolts in use on bicycles.


Now that you mention it I do remember that on cars, way back when, you would torque them them to a low setting and then run the engine until warm and then torque everything down to prevent the BMW problem of blowing off head bolts from heat expansion causing the yield of the head bolts to be exceeded.

It seems to me I can even remember engines blowing head gaskets if you didn't follow these procedures.

Blowing head gaskets, cracking heads, warping heads, breaking head
bolts, stripping head bolts - all kinds of troublesome things.
Following the manufacturer's or head gasket manufacturer's directions
is very important. Sometimes the gasket manufacturer's instructions
differ from the engine manufacturer's when a revised gasket is
designed to solve a particular issue.
  #10  
Old April 24th 17, 07:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Benderthe.evilrobot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 128
Default torque wrench issues


wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:


"Emanuel Berg" wrote in message
...
I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench,
28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in
Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if
that is China or not

It has a locking screw, a torque setting
handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some
English unit I take it?) - it also as a
locking lever on top just like an ordinary
ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and
anti-clockwise.

The torques only work in the
clockwise direction. So if the
locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way,
it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in
the manual it says:

Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo
nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will
damage the ratchet mechanism and the
calibrated settings.

So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use
the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which
would require a left thread? (And it would be
just a long shaft, with the torque not
in effect.)

As for me, I don't plan using it for anything
but as a torque, because I have other, less
expensive ratchets and spanners to do the
everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know
what it means.

It also came with a certificate with data on
the calibration and in the manual it says it
should be recalibrated at least every
12 months.


Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter.

Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant
and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as
clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given
cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a
torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray
lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off
the end.
However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but
on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may
be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt"


Bicycles tend to have less things you can twist the end off.

Its common on motorcycles, but mainly pulling the threads out of alloy
castings. Its pretty rare to strip an engine down so far that you can put
the castings in degreasing plant - torquing the engine case bolts with oil
left in the holes is a very good chance of stripping the threads.

 




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