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torque wrench issues



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 24th 17, 10:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,469
Default torque wrench issues

On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 1:19:49 AM UTC+1, wrote:

I'm not aware of any "torque to yield" bolts in use on bicycles.


Sure you are. Only they're not bolts but socket drive adaptors stamped "Made in China". If you're driving a 1/4in drive socket, use two of these adapters, 1/43/8 and 3/81/4 and the cheap metal of the drive adaptor will twist off in your expensive Snap-On socket long before the bolt is over-torqued..

Andre Jute
Lateral thinking
Ads
  #12  
Old April 25th 17, 12:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 427
Default torque wrench issues

On 4/24/2017 1:45 AM, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:30:56 +1000, James
wrote:

On 24/04/17 11:06, John B Slocomb wrote:


Tightening fasteners is a far more complex matter then just putting a
wrench on them and turning them.

For heavily loaded fasteners Caterpillar recommends (1) clean the
fastener, (2) lubricate the fastener (3) torque to specification in
three steps, i.e. first torque all of the fasteners to 40% torque,
then to 70% torque and then to final torque.



For the bolts on head stem clamps I usually do something similar. If
you tighten one steerer clamp bolt to 7Nm and then the other to the same
torque, the first one is likely now at much less than 7Nm.


Certainly.

I believe that Shimano recommends tightening the two bolts, that hold
the off-side pedal, on repeatedly. First one and then the other until
they are both tight?


That procedure is in the mfr. specs for my FSA crank as well (for the
left hand crank arm pinch bolts).

Mark J.



  #13  
Old April 25th 17, 01:42 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 331
Default torque wrench issues

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:51:41 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:


"Emanuel Berg" wrote in message
...
I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench,
28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in
Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if
that is China or not

It has a locking screw, a torque setting
handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some
English unit I take it?) - it also as a
locking lever on top just like an ordinary
ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and
anti-clockwise.

The torques only work in the
clockwise direction. So if the
locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way,
it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in
the manual it says:

Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo
nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will
damage the ratchet mechanism and the
calibrated settings.

So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use
the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which
would require a left thread? (And it would be
just a long shaft, with the torque not
in effect.)

As for me, I don't plan using it for anything
but as a torque, because I have other, less
expensive ratchets and spanners to do the
everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know
what it means.

It also came with a certificate with data on
the calibration and in the manual it says it
should be recalibrated at least every
12 months.

Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter.

Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant
and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as
clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given
cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a
torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray
lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off
the end.
However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but
on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may
be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt"


Bicycles tend to have less things you can twist the end off.

Its common on motorcycles, but mainly pulling the threads out of alloy
castings. Its pretty rare to strip an engine down so far that you can put
the castings in degreasing plant - torquing the engine case bolts with oil
left in the holes is a very good chance of stripping the threads.


As for stripping engine bolts, the Honda factory used to install
fasteners so tight that a normal person couldn't get them out without
an"impact driver". A tool that I never even saw before the Japanese
invasion.

  #14  
Old April 25th 17, 03:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 445
Default torque wrench issues

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 14:22:04 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 1:19:49 AM UTC+1, wrote:

I'm not aware of any "torque to yield" bolts in use on bicycles.


Sure you are. Only they're not bolts but socket drive adaptors stamped "Made in China". If you're driving a 1/4in drive socket, use two of these adapters, 1/43/8 and 3/81/4 and the cheap metal of the drive adaptor will twist off in your expensive Snap-On socket long before the bolt is over-torqued.

Andre Jute
Lateral thinking

That's only if you use crappy tools. Crappy tools are too expensive
to depend on. I value my skin
  #15  
Old April 25th 17, 03:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 445
Default torque wrench issues

On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:42:21 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:51:41 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:


"Emanuel Berg" wrote in message
...
I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench,
28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in
Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if
that is China or not

It has a locking screw, a torque setting
handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some
English unit I take it?) - it also as a
locking lever on top just like an ordinary
ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and
anti-clockwise.

The torques only work in the
clockwise direction. So if the
locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way,
it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in
the manual it says:

Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo
nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will
damage the ratchet mechanism and the
calibrated settings.

So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use
the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which
would require a left thread? (And it would be
just a long shaft, with the torque not
in effect.)

As for me, I don't plan using it for anything
but as a torque, because I have other, less
expensive ratchets and spanners to do the
everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know
what it means.

It also came with a certificate with data on
the calibration and in the manual it says it
should be recalibrated at least every
12 months.

Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter.

Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant
and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as
clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given
cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a
torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray
lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off
the end.
However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but
on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may
be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt"


Bicycles tend to have less things you can twist the end off.

Its common on motorcycles, but mainly pulling the threads out of alloy
castings. Its pretty rare to strip an engine down so far that you can put
the castings in degreasing plant - torquing the engine case bolts with oil
left in the holes is a very good chance of stripping the threads.


As for stripping engine bolts, the Honda factory used to install
fasteners so tight that a normal person couldn't get them out without
an"impact driver". A tool that I never even saw before the Japanese
invasion.

The lock washers were very effective where used, and the Phipips style
bolts were incapable of delivering enough torque to breat them loose
without camming out - the Hammer Impact driver solved that problem
  #16  
Old April 25th 17, 05:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 331
Default torque wrench issues

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 22:17:14 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:42:21 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:51:41 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:


"Emanuel Berg" wrote in message
...
I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench,
28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in
Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if
that is China or not

It has a locking screw, a torque setting
handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some
English unit I take it?) - it also as a
locking lever on top just like an ordinary
ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and
anti-clockwise.

The torques only work in the
clockwise direction. So if the
locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way,
it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in
the manual it says:

Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo
nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will
damage the ratchet mechanism and the
calibrated settings.

So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use
the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which
would require a left thread? (And it would be
just a long shaft, with the torque not
in effect.)

As for me, I don't plan using it for anything
but as a torque, because I have other, less
expensive ratchets and spanners to do the
everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know
what it means.

It also came with a certificate with data on
the calibration and in the manual it says it
should be recalibrated at least every
12 months.

Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter.

Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant
and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as
clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given
cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a
torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray
lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off
the end.
However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but
on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may
be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt"

Bicycles tend to have less things you can twist the end off.

Its common on motorcycles, but mainly pulling the threads out of alloy
castings. Its pretty rare to strip an engine down so far that you can put
the castings in degreasing plant - torquing the engine case bolts with oil
left in the holes is a very good chance of stripping the threads.


As for stripping engine bolts, the Honda factory used to install
fasteners so tight that a normal person couldn't get them out without
an"impact driver". A tool that I never even saw before the Japanese
invasion.

The lock washers were very effective where used, and the Phipips style
bolts were incapable of delivering enough torque to breat them loose
without camming out - the Hammer Impact driver solved that problem


I believe I've read that the "Phillips" headed screws in a Japanese
motorcycle are not actually "Phillips" but some Japanese standard that
didn't quite match the screwdrivers we had in the U.S. Which probably
didn't help either :-)
  #17  
Old April 25th 17, 02:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,868
Default torque wrench issues

On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 4:43:16 PM UTC-7, Mark J. wrote:
On 4/24/2017 1:45 AM, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:30:56 +1000, James
wrote:

On 24/04/17 11:06, John B Slocomb wrote:


Tightening fasteners is a far more complex matter then just putting a
wrench on them and turning them.

For heavily loaded fasteners Caterpillar recommends (1) clean the
fastener, (2) lubricate the fastener (3) torque to specification in
three steps, i.e. first torque all of the fasteners to 40% torque,
then to 70% torque and then to final torque.



For the bolts on head stem clamps I usually do something similar. If
you tighten one steerer clamp bolt to 7Nm and then the other to the same
torque, the first one is likely now at much less than 7Nm.


Certainly.

I believe that Shimano recommends tightening the two bolts, that hold
the off-side pedal, on repeatedly. First one and then the other until
they are both tight?


That procedure is in the mfr. specs for my FSA crank as well (for the
left hand crank arm pinch bolts).

Mark J.


Campy made a hollow BB30 crank for a short time that required careful torquing but very soon replaced it with the splined version they now use that is a whole lot less picky.
  #18  
Old April 25th 17, 02:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,868
Default torque wrench issues

On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 9:02:24 PM UTC-7, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 22:17:14 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:42:21 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:51:41 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:


"Emanuel Berg" wrote in message
...
I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench,
28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in
Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if
that is China or not

It has a locking screw, a torque setting
handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some
English unit I take it?) - it also as a
locking lever on top just like an ordinary
ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and
anti-clockwise.

The torques only work in the
clockwise direction. So if the
locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way,
it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in
the manual it says:

Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo
nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will
damage the ratchet mechanism and the
calibrated settings.

So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use
the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which
would require a left thread? (And it would be
just a long shaft, with the torque not
in effect.)

As for me, I don't plan using it for anything
but as a torque, because I have other, less
expensive ratchets and spanners to do the
everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know
what it means.

It also came with a certificate with data on
the calibration and in the manual it says it
should be recalibrated at least every
12 months.

Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter.

Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant
and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as
clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given
cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a
torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray
lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off
the end.
However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but
on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may
be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt"

Bicycles tend to have less things you can twist the end off.

Its common on motorcycles, but mainly pulling the threads out of alloy
castings. Its pretty rare to strip an engine down so far that you can put
the castings in degreasing plant - torquing the engine case bolts with oil
left in the holes is a very good chance of stripping the threads.

As for stripping engine bolts, the Honda factory used to install
fasteners so tight that a normal person couldn't get them out without
an"impact driver". A tool that I never even saw before the Japanese
invasion.

The lock washers were very effective where used, and the Phipips style
bolts were incapable of delivering enough torque to breat them loose
without camming out - the Hammer Impact driver solved that problem


I believe I've read that the "Phillips" headed screws in a Japanese
motorcycle are not actually "Phillips" but some Japanese standard that
didn't quite match the screwdrivers we had in the U.S. Which probably
didn't help either :-)


Roger that. They have a little less depth and strip the screws out. That's one of the reasons they've gone to this nasty little five sided poke-in deal that always looks like if you really torque it it will break off.
  #19  
Old April 25th 17, 06:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,469
Default torque wrench issues

On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 3:13:21 AM UTC+1, wrote:
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 14:22:04 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 1:19:49 AM UTC+1, wrote:

I'm not aware of any "torque to yield" bolts in use on bicycles.


Sure you are. Only they're not bolts but socket drive adaptors stamped "Made in China". If you're driving a 1/4in drive socket, use two of these adapters, 1/43/8 and 3/81/4 and the cheap metal of the drive adaptor will twist off in your expensive Snap-On socket long before the bolt is over-torqued.

Andre Jute
Lateral thinking

That's only if you use crappy tools. Crappy tools are too expensive
to depend on. I value my skin


If your skin is ever in danger even with crappy tools, you've been poorly trained, or haven't put your mind in gear. You're not supposed to hold the wrench with closed fingers, so that your knuckles get smashed if the tool slips. You're supposed to push the wrench with the flat of you hand and straight fingers so that what hits first if the wrench slips or breaks is the wrench, not your knuckles.

In any event, I was just making a joke about poor quality drive adaptors. I agree with you. Even if I will use a tool only once, I buy the best I can find. Example: a stud for a couple of bucks that can create damage worth a grand and change and too much of my even more valuable time if it is driven too deep, but which is torqued to only 0.5Nm. Bought a tool, did it right once, noted that it stands proud a bit at the correct torque, now turn it in with spanner between thumb and forefinger until I can just hook a fingernail into the proud standing thread. Perfect. (The manufacturer has since fixed the design by first hand flaring replacement studs, and then redesigning to build a self-stopper into the manufacturing process.)

Andre Jute
Not a compulsive obsessive. It's just cheaper in the long run to do it right first time. Anyhow, toolfondling is perfectly respectable hobby, and a lot cleaner than keeping a pet, especially if your pet, like mine, is a hedgehog: http://coolmainpress.com/ajwriting/1140/
  #20  
Old April 25th 17, 08:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Benderthe.evilrobot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 128
Default torque wrench issues


"John B Slocomb" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:51:41 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:


"Emanuel Berg" wrote in message
...
I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench,
28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in
Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if
that is China or not

It has a locking screw, a torque setting
handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some
English unit I take it?) - it also as a
locking lever on top just like an ordinary
ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and
anti-clockwise.

The torques only work in the
clockwise direction. So if the
locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way,
it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in
the manual it says:

Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo
nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will
damage the ratchet mechanism and the
calibrated settings.

So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use
the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which
would require a left thread? (And it would be
just a long shaft, with the torque not
in effect.)

As for me, I don't plan using it for anything
but as a torque, because I have other, less
expensive ratchets and spanners to do the
everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know
what it means.

It also came with a certificate with data on
the calibration and in the manual it says it
should be recalibrated at least every
12 months.

Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter.

Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray
lubricant
and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as
clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given
cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a
torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray
lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off
the end.
However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but
on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may
be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt"


Bicycles tend to have less things you can twist the end off.

Its common on motorcycles, but mainly pulling the threads out of alloy
castings. Its pretty rare to strip an engine down so far that you can put
the castings in degreasing plant - torquing the engine case bolts with oil
left in the holes is a very good chance of stripping the threads.


As for stripping engine bolts, the Honda factory used to install
fasteners so tight that a normal person couldn't get them out without
an"impact driver". A tool that I never even saw before the Japanese
invasion.


It had more to do with incompatible screw head profiles - you were near
enough guaranteed to chew up the cross-point recess.

Non Asian screwdriver bits have longer points so the blades only about 1/3
engaged with the recess. Using an impact driver didn't necessarily guarantee
anything.

At first; I put the impact chuck in an extension bar so I could do a bit of
cold forming with a large hammer, then I noticed the pit of the recess was
peened shiny. Just nipping the pointy end of the screwdriver bit on the
grinding wheel and it fit perfectly.

 




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