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  #11  
Old May 11th 17, 11:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
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Posts: 366
Default Shimano Headset

John B. wrote:

There used to be a "rule of thumb" to always
use an adjustable wrench so that the force is
against the fixed jaw. I have proved this
rule myself. I was squatting down tightening
the bolts that held a large vise to a bench.
The wrench didn't fit in its proper
orientation so I flipped it over and pushed
against the movable jaw. I proved, at least
to my own satisfaction, that (1) an
adjustable wrench used in this manner will
slip, and (2) a broken nose Hurts!


Ha!

I've heard the rule and some people insist it
be adhered to even for fixed wrenches! Well,
I suppose the smaller jaw is the one that
corresponds to the movable jaw. But really
I think this is just something they have
brought over from using adjustable wrenches.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
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  #12  
Old May 11th 17, 03:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 4,624
Default Shimano Headset

On 2017-05-10 17:53, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 10 May 2017 15:41:23 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, May 10, 2017 at 6:19:24 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-05-10 14:41, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Joerg wrote:

In the lower picture you can see what
I mentioned in another thread: Fixed
wrenches, in contrast to adjustable ones, are
always larger than the nuts. Have to be in
order to account for tolerances. So they
never grab cleanly which will wear the nut
over time and also ding it.

Well... doesn't any wrench has to be bigger
than the nut in order to grab it?

Adjustable tools doesn't offer a tighter grip.


They sure do, provided you have a good one and not one from the local
discounter.


Even if it could in theory just feel the part
that is adjustable - you can almost always ruck
it back and forth, just a bit but nonetheless.


Yes, but that sliver is much smaller than with a regular sized fixed wrench.


Also the adjustable wrench is often used in
a careless manner. People don't adjust it to
perfection before they pull!


Ya well, if people use them as hammers and such the work result will
usually show it.


No, fixed keys are the best and in particular
the ring side (closed end) of the combination
spanner as that pulls on all sides of a hex
bolt or nut.


For most situations I use fixed wrenches but not when if has to be super
snug. However, as I said I have a few really high-quality adjustable
wrenches. The smaller cheaper ones are more for emergencies.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


If adjustable wrenches are so dang great then why do repair

shops spend thousands of dollars on wrenches designed to fit the
fastener?



Two reasons.

a. They are just fine for most standard situations because the head of
the screw or the nut is designed to withstand a slight oversize in the
wrench at max permissible torque.

b. It's faster. They must mind mechanics times. I don't.


Cheers


Actually wrenches and nuts and bolts aren't designed so that the
wrench is a press fit onto the fastener since that would mean that in
order to fit the wrench to the fastener it would have to be in perfect
alignment. Hardly practical in a working environment.

Nor is some mythical "perfect fit" necessary as fasteners are designed
to be tightened or loosened using conventional tools and the size of
the hexagon head or nut provides sufficient flat length to avoid the
wrench slipping and rounding the corners. In fact, using conventional
wrenches it is quite easy to actually break the shank of a fastener
without damaging the head at all.

But then, to one who habitually uses a nail and a rock as a chain tool
the use of proper tools is probably a mystery.


Try to differentiate between an outdoors emergency situation and the
workshop in the garage. It's not that difficult.

-
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #13  
Old May 11th 17, 03:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 4,624
Default Shimano Headset

On 2017-05-10 16:00, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Joerg wrote:

Even if it could in theory just feel the
part that is adjustable - you can almost
always ruck it back and forth, just a bit
but nonetheless.

Yes, but that sliver is much smaller than
with a regular sized fixed wrench.


Perhaps the size of the nut is of
importance here.

For example, with adjustable wrenches when you
pull a small item it sometimes happens that
item gets tilted and stuck in the wrench.
This never happened to me with the fixed sizes.


Then you seriously need a better quality adjustable wrench. Or not use it.


But it is logical that adjustable wrenches pull
tighter so at some level of quality and
carefull work they should surpass
anything fixed...

In practice, on a typical bike. Say 8 and 10 mm
for details. 13 for the saddle and 14 or 15 for
the dome nuts. If you leave any normal person
with this bike and fixed keys the work will be
many times as good and much faster. Remember,
it is not just pulling, it is also HOLDING
while pulling at the same time.


For those I'd never use adjustable. I did a mod to the MTB yesterday and
everything was less than the equivalent of about 14mm. When it comes to
very recalcitrant bottom brackets that have been in there for years or
decades that quickly becomes another story. There a high-quality
adjustable wrench set very snugly can win the day.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #14  
Old May 11th 17, 03:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 3,346
Default Shimano Headset

On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 3:06:56 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2017 10:47:10 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

John B. wrote:

In fact, using conventional wrenches it is
quite easy to actually break the shank of
a fastener without damaging the head at all.


Fixed wrenches do not damage the head. They are
faster, more reliable and more ergonomic than
adjustable wrenches and I dare say they pull
tighter or as tight in practice, using them all
day long.

It is possible in a test lab for a single bolt
it is possible to show an adjustable wrench
pulls tighter but in practice it is actually
the adjustable wrench that will round the
corners as the mechanic will get tired and make
mistakes. And one source of him/her getting
tired will be having to adjust the wrench all
the time


There used to be a "rule of thumb" to always use an adjustable wrench
so that the force is against the fixed jaw. I have proved this rule
myself. I was squatting down tightening the bolts that held a large
vise to a bench. The wrench didn't fit in its proper orientation so I
flipped it over and pushed against the movable jaw. I proved, at least
to my own satisfaction, that (1) an adjustable wrench used in this
manner will slip, and (2) a broken nose Hurts!

--
Cheers,

John B.


The "pulling" force. The rule actally was to always use an adjustable wrench so that the adjustable jaw is used in compression.
  #15  
Old May 11th 17, 04:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
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Posts: 366
Default Shimano Headset

Joerg wrote:

Then you seriously need a better quality
adjustable wrench. Or not use it.


The smaller the item, the bigger the problem
with the silver mentioned earlier. I suppose
this is where the tilt occurs.

But I get it there are different sizes of
adjustable wrenches as well. I have several.
The smallest I have is very small and it is
called a "zero zero". I don't know if this is
an international convention. Like the
"smallest" is a zero, so something that is even
smaller becomes a zero zero...

For those I'd never use adjustable. I did
a mod to the MTB yesterday and everything was
less than the equivalent of about 14mm.
When it comes to very recalcitrant bottom
brackets that have been in there for years or
decades that quickly becomes another story.
There a high-quality adjustable wrench set
very snugly can win the day.


I don't recall opening a BB with either but
I do have a 30 mm combination spanner which
I use for the lock ring on the handlebar tube
whenever that is hex and not hook spanner...

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #16  
Old May 12th 17, 04:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 3,582
Default Shimano Headset

On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 10:06:04 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
But then, to one who habitually uses a nail and a rock as a chain tool
the use of proper tools is probably a mystery.


Try to differentiate between an outdoors emergency situation and the
workshop in the garage. It's not that difficult.

-
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Which is hy mose of us carry a small tool repair kit that includes a chain-breaker. That way a broken chain isn't an ememrgency and a repair only takes a few seconds. After all seconds count when you're beig stalked by mountain lions or other hungry critters doesn't it? For someone who either breaks chains a lot or often comes across people with a broken chain (bother very rare where I ride even on the technical trails) it ONLY makes sense to have a chain breaker and spare link(s)and quick-link WITH YOU.

To be honest using a rock and rusty nail to repair a chain in the field sounds like something an armchair bicyclist would think up. Such a repaired chain would most likely fail again after only a short distance. Believe it or not there's good reasons why chain breakers are used to fix a chain.

Cheers
  #17  
Old May 12th 17, 05:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,624
Default Shimano Headset

On 2017-05-12 08:23, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 10:06:04 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: Snipped
But then, to one who habitually uses a nail and a rock as a chain
tool the use of proper tools is probably a mystery.


Try to differentiate between an outdoors emergency situation and
the workshop in the garage. It's not that difficult.

- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Which is hy mose of us carry a small tool repair kit that includes a
chain-breaker.



Most? Most cyclists don't even carry a first aid kit and that is way
more important than a chain breaker tool. I have used mine multiple
times. Never for myself.

Still debating with myself whether to schlepp the CPR mask. It's light
but adds volume.


... That way a broken chain isn't an ememrgency and a
repair only takes a few seconds. After all seconds count when you're
beig stalked by mountain lions or other hungry critters doesn't it?
For someone who either breaks chains a lot or often comes across
people with a broken chain (bother very rare where I ride even on the
technical trails) it ONLY makes sense to have a chain breaker and
spare link(s)and quick-link WITH YOU.


I usually only carry tools where there is hardly any alternative. For
breaking a chain there is.


To be honest using a rock and rusty nail to repair a chain in the
field sounds like something an armchair bicyclist would think up.
Such a repaired chain would most likely fail again after only a short
distance.



So why did they never fail?


... Believe it or not there's good reasons why chain breakers
are used to fix a chain.


I might get one of those. One of these days, as grandpa Kettle would
have said. If I find a really tiny one on sale for a good price.

I might even consider a new headset for the road bike. Maybe :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #18  
Old May 12th 17, 09:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 2,769
Default Shimano Headset

On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 9:36:32 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-05-12 08:23, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 10:06:04 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: Snipped
But then, to one who habitually uses a nail and a rock as a chain
tool the use of proper tools is probably a mystery.


Try to differentiate between an outdoors emergency situation and
the workshop in the garage. It's not that difficult.

- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Which is hy mose of us carry a small tool repair kit that includes a
chain-breaker.



Most? Most cyclists don't even carry a first aid kit and that is way
more important than a chain breaker tool. I have used mine multiple
times. Never for myself.

Still debating with myself whether to schlepp the CPR mask. It's light
but adds volume.


... That way a broken chain isn't an ememrgency and a
repair only takes a few seconds. After all seconds count when you're
beig stalked by mountain lions or other hungry critters doesn't it?
For someone who either breaks chains a lot or often comes across
people with a broken chain (bother very rare where I ride even on the
technical trails) it ONLY makes sense to have a chain breaker and
spare link(s)and quick-link WITH YOU.


I usually only carry tools where there is hardly any alternative. For
breaking a chain there is.


To be honest using a rock and rusty nail to repair a chain in the
field sounds like something an armchair bicyclist would think up.
Such a repaired chain would most likely fail again after only a short
distance.



So why did they never fail?


... Believe it or not there's good reasons why chain breakers
are used to fix a chain.


I might get one of those. One of these days, as grandpa Kettle would
have said. If I find a really tiny one on sale for a good price.

I might even consider a new headset for the road bike. Maybe :-)


When was the last time you needed a CPR mask? When was the last time you needed a chain tool? Hmmm. Seems to be an easy choice, no?

If you find a lifeless person on the trail -- in the middle of nowhere with the mountain lions circling -- remember that you will have to do compressions until the helicopter arrives. Now consider this: http://jaha.ahajournals.org/content/5/3/e002819 You're probably better off sitting down and writing a condolence letter.

OR, you could get a super light-weight AED (assuming the dead guy had V-fib and wasn't totally dead). http://www.aed.com/philips-heartstar...FVJbfgodvGkHNQ I think Nashbar has one that comes in a seat pack. You could also get one of these: https://ideasinspiringinnovation.fil...ce_kenya-2.jpg

Plus, if you witness a riding companion going down and dying, you can just do compressions these days -- which is kind of mind-boggling. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056...00005253422101 https://lifeinthefastlane.com/ccc/compression-only-cpr/

Or, you can choose to ride with companions who do not have communicable diseases and on whose mouths you are not afraid to perform mouth-to-mouth, obviating the need for a special mask. Ride with some of those women from Muzi's body-paint link.

-- Jay Beattie.



  #19  
Old May 13th 17, 05:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 67
Default Shimano Headset

On Fri, 12 May 2017 08:23:02 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 10:06:04 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
But then, to one who habitually uses a nail and a rock as a chain tool
the use of proper tools is probably a mystery.


Try to differentiate between an outdoors emergency situation and the
workshop in the garage. It's not that difficult.

-
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Which is hy mose of us carry a small tool repair kit that includes a chain-breaker. That way a broken chain isn't an ememrgency and a repair only takes a few seconds. After all seconds count when you're beig stalked by mountain lions or other hungry critters doesn't it? For someone who either breaks chains a lot or often comes across people with a broken chain (bother very rare where I ride even on the technical trails) it ONLY makes sense to have a chain breaker and spare link(s)and quick-link WITH YOU.

To be honest using a rock and rusty nail to repair a chain in the field sounds like something an armchair bicyclist would think up. Such a repaired chain would most likely fail again after only a short distance. Believe it or not there's good reasons why chain breakers are used to fix a chain.

Cheers


Out of curiosity I weighed and measured the chain tool that I carry in
my bike tool kit. It is 2-1/2 inches in length and 2-1/8 inches in
height. 1/2 inch thick, at its thickest, and weighs 2.6 ounces. It
works with chains up to and including 10 speed chains (I don't own an
11 speed). Frankly, as a broken chain immobilizes the bicycle I can
see no logic in not carrying it.

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #20  
Old May 13th 17, 09:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 107
Default Shimano Headset

On Saturday, May 13, 2017 at 6:57:35 AM UTC+2, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2017 08:23:02 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 10:06:04 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
But then, to one who habitually uses a nail and a rock as a chain tool
the use of proper tools is probably a mystery.


Try to differentiate between an outdoors emergency situation and the
workshop in the garage. It's not that difficult.

-
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Which is hy mose of us carry a small tool repair kit that includes a chain-breaker. That way a broken chain isn't an ememrgency and a repair only takes a few seconds. After all seconds count when you're beig stalked by mountain lions or other hungry critters doesn't it? For someone who either breaks chains a lot or often comes across people with a broken chain (bother very rare where I ride even on the technical trails) it ONLY makes sense to have a chain breaker and spare link(s)and quick-link WITH YOU.

To be honest using a rock and rusty nail to repair a chain in the field sounds like something an armchair bicyclist would think up. Such a repaired chain would most likely fail again after only a short distance. Believe it or not there's good reasons why chain breakers are used to fix a chain.

Cheers


Out of curiosity I weighed and measured the chain tool that I carry in
my bike tool kit. It is 2-1/2 inches in length and 2-1/8 inches in
height. 1/2 inch thick, at its thickest, and weighs 2.6 ounces. It
works with chains up to and including 10 speed chains (I don't own an
11 speed). Frankly, as a broken chain immobilizes the bicycle I can
see no logic in not carrying it.

--
Cheers,

John B.


Whether I carry a chaintool is the result of the probability a chain breaks multiplied with the severity of the consequences when it happens. The outcome for me is off road I carry one, on my roadbikes I don't. This applies for all tools.

Lou
 




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