Age where it is no longer appropriate for children to ride onsidewalks?

On Thursday, February 9, 2017 at 7:34:25 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 2/9/2017 12:38 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
sms wrote:

But the consensus was that by
raising the age limit we are encouraging kids to ride because the kids
and their parents feel safe on sidewalks, even though the evidence
doesn't support this feeling.

So what’s the procedure for when children and parents want to ride
together? Are parent’s simply not allowed on the sidewalk to ride
with their children?

The issue I raised, that got one other council member on my side, was
the problem of fast cyclists, riding opposite traffic, on the sidewalk,
speeding down sidewalk ramps into intersections, where drivers aren't
expecting or looking for a high speed cyclist.

That’s really the best argument: it should be a speed limit, not an
age limit. You just need different ways of framing it to get the
point across. It should also apply to all “use� of a sidewalk,
including things like rollerblades, electric scooters, and even the
cars crossing the sidewalk to park in the garage. Anybody looking
to go zipping around faster than, say, 10mph or 15kph should be
using the road. And, really, it should drop to *half* that when
pedestrians are present.

One problem is that there are really no double-blind studies that can
quantify the difference in the danger between sidewalk riding and street
riding, by age. Even though we know that sidewalks are not appropriate
for anything other than small children on little bikes, with adult
supervision, it's hard to explain to non-cyclists why the sidewalk is
not the safer place to ride. I suppose that I could get our resident AHZ
to make up some studies for me, but this city` council, while not
composed of cyclists, is too smart to fall for the kind of thing.

Practically speaking, this law will have almost no effect on the number
of 11 and 12 year olds riding on the sidewalk. If they do it now they
will keep doing it. If they don't do it now, they won't start doing it.
But it sends the wrong message.

And of course, in some instances, it is necessary to ride on the
sidewalk regardless of the rider's age.

provide clarity with a google maps example of a limited sidewalk area

sms writes:

On 2/9/2017 11:57 AM, Joerg wrote:

Argument #2: Like Tim said, this increase will result in more and also
more serious pedestrian injuries. 12 year olds have a lot of muscle
power, they can easily exceed 20mph, and they will. That is not safe.

The instructor I brought in, who is also a racer, emphasized the big
difference between 10 year olds and 12 year olds in terms of speed and
power.

How does enforcement work, practically? Does a cop pull over a young
cyclist and ask for ID that shows he's under 10, or under 12?
How many 10 year olds can prove their age? Does he get a citation that
requires him to show up in court?

Just MHO: Instead of such rules city council should spend their time
thinking about where and how to build more bike infrastructure. Anything
else is unlikely getting more people onto their bicycles. At least not
in America. Well over 90% of people I know who cycle will absolutely not
do so on roads. They always truck their bicycles to where a bike path
access is located and free parking is available. This is the #1 reason
why I almost always ride alone into the valley, no bike paths until you
are 10mi down the road.

To their credit, they are also working on more infrastructure.


--

On 2/9/2017 5:17 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
sms writes:

On 2/9/2017 11:57 AM, Joerg wrote:

Argument #2: Like Tim said, this increase will result in more and also
more serious pedestrian injuries. 12 year olds have a lot of muscle
power, they can easily exceed 20mph, and they will. That is not safe.

The instructor I brought in, who is also a racer, emphasized the big
difference between 10 year olds and 12 year olds in terms of speed and
power.

How does enforcement work, practically? Does a cop pull over a young
cyclist and ask for ID that shows he's under 10, or under 12?
How many 10 year olds can prove their age? Does he get a citation that
requires him to show up in court?

There is no enforcement.

I've seen sidewalk riding enforcement near the high schools, but never
near the middle school or elementary school. There could be middle
school students or elementary school students that are 11-12 years old.

There are lots of laws on the books where enforcement is non-existent.
But if there were an accident where an 11 or 12 year old were found to
be illegally riding on the sidewalk, it could be relevant.

On Thursday, February 9, 2017 at 5:17:35 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
sms writes:

On 2/9/2017 11:57 AM, Joerg wrote:

Argument #2: Like Tim said, this increase will result in more and also
more serious pedestrian injuries. 12 year olds have a lot of muscle
power, they can easily exceed 20mph, and they will. That is not safe.

The instructor I brought in, who is also a racer, emphasized the big
difference between 10 year olds and 12 year olds in terms of speed and
power.

How does enforcement work, practically? Does a cop pull over a young
cyclist and ask for ID that shows he's under 10, or under 12?
How many 10 year olds can prove their age? Does he get a citation that
requires him to show up in court?

What if he is a Somalian immigrant with no birth record? Is a cop supposed to take a core sample and count the rings?

I think we should have an immediate freeze on any and all children riding on sidewalks. Not a ban, but a pause to determine how we can vet children before allowing them to ride on sidewalks. SMS should have his transportation department report to him every 30 days until a solution is found. We must ensure that our sidewalks are free from over-aged bicycle terrorists.

-- The Jay.

On Thursday, February 9, 2017 at 4:34:25 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 2/9/2017 12:38 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
sms wrote:

But the consensus was that by
raising the age limit we are encouraging kids to ride because the kids
and their parents feel safe on sidewalks, even though the evidence
doesn't support this feeling.

So what’s the procedure for when children and parents want to ride
together? Are parent’s simply not allowed on the sidewalk to ride
with their children?

The issue I raised, that got one other council member on my side, was
the problem of fast cyclists, riding opposite traffic, on the sidewalk,
speeding down sidewalk ramps into intersections, where drivers aren't
expecting or looking for a high speed cyclist.

That’s really the best argument: it should be a speed limit, not an
age limit. You just need different ways of framing it to get the
point across. It should also apply to all “use� of a sidewalk,
including things like rollerblades, electric scooters, and even the
cars crossing the sidewalk to park in the garage. Anybody looking
to go zipping around faster than, say, 10mph or 15kph should be
using the road. And, really, it should drop to *half* that when
pedestrians are present.

One problem is that there are really no double-blind studies that can
quantify the difference in the danger between sidewalk riding and street
riding, by age. Even though we know that sidewalks are not appropriate
for anything other than small children on little bikes, with adult
supervision, it's hard to explain to non-cyclists why the sidewalk is
not the safer place to ride. I suppose that I could get our resident AHZ
to make up some studies for me, but this city` council, while not
composed of cyclists, is too smart to fall for the kind of thing.

Practically speaking, this law will have almost no effect on the number
of 11 and 12 year olds riding on the sidewalk. If they do it now they
will keep doing it. If they don't do it now, they won't start doing it.
But it sends the wrong message.

And of course, in some instances, it is necessary to ride on the
sidewalk regardless of the rider's age.

Isn't this all solved by the usual UVC provision allowing bicyclists to ride on the sidewalk so long as they are not exceeding the speed of pedestrian traffic? Do you guys have an ordinance that bans riding on sidewalks except for kids?

-- Jay Beattie

On 2/9/2017 6:01 PM, jbeattie wrote:

Isn't this all solved by the usual UVC provision allowing bicyclists to ride on the sidewalk so long as they are not exceeding the speed of pedestrian traffic?

Is that supposed to be in 11-1209? It's not there.

Do you guys have an ordinance that bans riding on sidewalks except for kids?

Yes counselor.

11.08.160 Riding–On Pedestrian Facilities.
No person shall ride, use or operate a bicycle in any pedestrian
crosswalk within the City. No person shall ride, use or operate a
bicycle on any sidewalk or pedestrian path within the City except on
Pacifica Drive between Whitney Way and Torre Avenue, and as specifically
permitted in this chapter.
(Ord. 1649, 1994; Ord. 1560, 1991; Ord. 1420, (part), 1987)

[This is being modified because the reason for the exception no longer
exists]

11.08.170 Hitching Rides.
No person riding upon any motorcycle, motorized bicycle, bicycle,
coaster, roller skates, sled or toy vehicle shall attach the same or
herself/himself to any streetcar or vehicle on the roadway.
(Ord. 1420, (part), 1987)

11.08.180 Exemptions.
Children under the age of ten years shall be exempt from the
provisions of Section 11.08.160; provided, that the exemption shall not
apply to any child under the age of ten years who fails to exercise, or
is incapable of exercising, due care for the rights and safety of all
others using any sidewalk or pedestrian path; and provided further, that
in any event the exemption shall not apply to the operation of bicycles
on any sidewalk or pedestrian path in front of any business or
commercial establishment.
(Ord. 1420, (part), 1987)

[This is being changed from ten years to twelve years]

On 2/9/2017 8:01 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 9, 2017 at 4:34:25 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 2/9/2017 12:38 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
sms wrote:

But the consensus was that by
raising the age limit we are encouraging kids to ride because the kids
and their parents feel safe on sidewalks, even though the evidence
doesn't support this feeling.

So what’s the procedure for when children and parents want to ride
together? Are parent’s simply not allowed on the sidewalk to ride
with their children?

The issue I raised, that got one other council member on my side, was
the problem of fast cyclists, riding opposite traffic, on the sidewalk,
speeding down sidewalk ramps into intersections, where drivers aren't
expecting or looking for a high speed cyclist.

That’s really the best argument: it should be a speed limit, not an
age limit. You just need different ways of framing it to get the
point across. It should also apply to all “use� of a sidewalk,
including things like rollerblades, electric scooters, and even the
cars crossing the sidewalk to park in the garage. Anybody looking
to go zipping around faster than, say, 10mph or 15kph should be
using the road. And, really, it should drop to *half* that when
pedestrians are present.

One problem is that there are really no double-blind studies that can
quantify the difference in the danger between sidewalk riding and street
riding, by age. Even though we know that sidewalks are not appropriate
for anything other than small children on little bikes, with adult
supervision, it's hard to explain to non-cyclists why the sidewalk is
not the safer place to ride. I suppose that I could get our resident AHZ
to make up some studies for me, but this city` council, while not
composed of cyclists, is too smart to fall for the kind of thing.

Practically speaking, this law will have almost no effect on the number
of 11 and 12 year olds riding on the sidewalk. If they do it now they
will keep doing it. If they don't do it now, they won't start doing it.
But it sends the wrong message.

And of course, in some instances, it is necessary to ride on the
sidewalk regardless of the rider's age.

Isn't this all solved by the usual UVC provision allowing bicyclists to ride on the sidewalk so long as they are not exceeding the speed of pedestrian traffic? Do you guys have an ordinance that bans riding on sidewalks except for kids?

-- Jay Beattie


A common ordinance is to allow in R zoned districts
(residential and parks) but not in C zoned (business districts).

A local change in Madison WI was to allow in C zoning where
building entrances are more than 15 feet from the sidewalk.
In practical terms, OK in front of a strip mall but not in
an older denser commercial neighborhood where doors open
directly onto a sidewalk.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 11:37:18 -0800, sms
wrote:
On 2/8/2017 9:07 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:

IMHO kids should be riding like adults before they are 10. The skill
set is not that difficult and the reasons I list above are persuasive
to me that riding on sidewalks is not safe.

To me too. But we are dealing with five politicians and only two of us
are cyclists.

One other thought. Put a helmet cam on some 10 year olds and have them
ride around town for a while. Show a rider's-eye view to the
politicians as the kids roll through intersections, pass pedestrians,
hit the cracked and heaved sidewalk sections. You could even do a
compare and contrast with an adult rider on the roads.

On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:32:08 -0800, sms
wrote:

One problem is that there are really no double-blind studies...

Would any of the politicians grasp that anyway? I'm not sure that some
of the city council here would be swayed by a double-blind study that
contradicted what they believe.

I'd say its OK to ride on the sidewalks if you are an elementary school age child. Once you get out of elementary school, no riding on sidewalk. So somewhere in that 10-11-12 age. Pick a number. Junior high and high school kids, no sidewalk riding. Elementary school, OK.