FLU

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 08:15:59 +0700, John B. wrote:

epic snip

... No two weeks vacation either,
you got to get the plowing done and the garden in or there won't be
anything to eat next winter.


Hint: Agricultural things have progressed quite well since you were a
kid. Nowadays they have GPS controlled combines which can be operated by
staff and not only the owner of the farm.

Sure. Combine harvesting has been going on even longer then I've been
around and they are expensive, which is why you seldom see one in the
normal farmer's inventory. But what you don't think about is that to be
economical combine harvesting can only be used in large fields that are
relatively flat have straight boundaries. It isn't effective in fields
that are irregular in shape or are not relatively flat.

Have you read " The Grapes of Wrath"?
--
davethedave

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 05:50:19 -0000 (UTC), dave
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 08:15:59 +0700, John B. wrote:

epic snip

... No two weeks vacation either,
you got to get the plowing done and the garden in or there won't be
anything to eat next winter.


Hint: Agricultural things have progressed quite well since you were a
kid. Nowadays they have GPS controlled combines which can be operated by
staff and not only the owner of the farm.

Sure. Combine harvesting has been going on even longer then I've been
around and they are expensive, which is why you seldom see one in the
normal farmer's inventory. But what you don't think about is that to be
economical combine harvesting can only be used in large fields that are
relatively flat have straight boundaries. It isn't effective in fields
that are irregular in shape or are not relatively flat.

Have you read " The Grapes of Wrath"?

Certainly. It was a lot of years ago but I don't remember anything
about Combine Harvesters. I remember that the harvests had failed and
everyone left for California.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2017-11-28 16:50, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 07:50:41 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-27 16:21, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:16:19 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-27 12:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]

Oh - and I'm sure your completely separate bike paths will be
hermetically sealed, and given their own supply of filtered and
purified air, right? It wouldn't do to have them downwind from some
cars. One can't be too careful!


The one I took on Friday does come close to roads and even ... gasp
... Highway 50 at one spot where you can hear faint vroom vroom sounds.
Smells? Pine needle scent, foliage, earth, and oo, the occasionally
horse poop. I rather smell horse poop than the soot from a big Diesel.
You might be so city-addicted that you don't notice the difference but I
sure do.


Quite the opposite I would say. and, yes, I grew up in a rural
environment so I am familiar with all the smells that exist "out in
the country". But to those who actually reside in that environment
don't even notice them, they are part of the normal atmosphere.

It is only the city slickers who comment on "Oh... Smell the pine
trees. Of course there is an odor of pine trees, there ought to be as
all you can see is pine trees for miles around.

Your comment about smelling "horse poop" is a dead giveaway. The
correct term is "horse manure" and it is a normal part of the rural
atmosphere, or at least the normal rural atmosphere in areas where
horses are kept. In other areas it might be cow manure or chicken
manure and is a perfectly normal part of the environment where those
critters are raised.


As a little kid I grew up in farm country. Scientifically correct
expressions such as manure are mostly used by upscale folks that don't
live there. Locals call it poop or ****. Which is what it is. Sometimes
dung but that can already be seen as a frou-frou expression :-)


Strange comment. At least in my experience.

I never heard the term "**** spreader" used, they were called "manure
spreaders".


I heard that all the time, mostly in other languages. For example,
"Guelle Anhaenger" (ue is an umlaut in there) which loosely translates
to "**** trailer". That's how farmers called the "liquid manure" tank
trailers they carted to their fields, opened a valve and then pulled it
across behind the tractor. Leaving behind a serious stench.


... No one referred to a "poop pile" out back of the barn, it
was a "manure pile". To take it a bit further I remember the term
"manure the field" used, even in polite conversation but I certainly
never heard "**** the field" used in any context.


IME they always called that fertilizing the field. I never heard anyone
say "manure the field". The steaming pile back at the farm was called
the "dung pile".


I think you are making things up..... a term used in polite company to
indicate the person in question is telling lies.


Think what you want. I told how it was, what I experienced.


You remind me of the city folk that pay extra to buy the "organic"
vegetables that are grown in a chemical free environment... so you can
be sure that none of those nasty nitrogen rich chemicals are never,
never used.


You have the wrong impression there. And no, I do not eat kale. I can't
stand kale.


Kale? How did kale get into the conversation?


You implied I was one of those eco-bio-whatever city slickers turned
urban cowboy. Those usually eat all this supposedly super-healty stuff
with the weird taste :-)


What you do to maintain the chemicals necessary to support plant life
is spread "natural" fertilizers... i.e. manure on the farm land.


Yes, cow dung. BTDT.

Nope. Any type of manure although I seem to remember that chicken
manure was used with some caution as it tended to "burn the field" as
the old folks described it and chicken manure does have the highest
amount of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium of common farm manures
so perhaps they did know what they were talking about.


They successfully ran farms that way. Else their bank would have taken over.


So (to be a bit vulgar) first you grow the veggies in **** and then
you charge the city folks extra for doing so :-)


That's what they did where I grew up. They also sold the **** itself to
city dwellers to fertilize their flower beds. That must have been
noticed by investment bankers who, as Jay put it, sold "**** parfait" in
the shape of bundled mortgage "securities" except that those eventually
blew up.

You equate spreading manure on flower plants with spreading it on
vegetables and then selling them for a higher price because they are
"organic"?


City dwellers don't sell their plants. Why would they? It's some kind of
frou-frou phenomenon, dissing anything store-bought :-)


You know, that really says something about intelligence levels of the
city folks who buy the stuff doesn't it.


Maybe. Anyhow, I know that I live in the country when the supermarket
sells steer manure, has horse feed supplement in the main aisle and the
local radio station plays Stable Mix commercials.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-11-28 17:15, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 09:11:02 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-27 16:43, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 09:38:07 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-26 16:08, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 08:07:27 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-26 07:18, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/25/2017 3:05 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-25 12:51, wrote:
On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 1:48:06 PM UTC-7,

wrote:
the foil joke may prevent you from arranging with/into your
environment

try this ... if foil was a component then why not .... ?

J this is an older German architectural/psych concept:
terracotta
buildings are healthier than steel reinforced concrete
...a much
larger off the ground scale

I cannot locate current info on the net


Steel re-enforced in most cases means some big residential
highrise in a congested area. No wonder that those people
are or feel less healthy. I have never understood the desire
of city folk to cram together like sardines in a can.


Try an intro Anthropology book some time.
Before The Inter Webs, close proximity promoted exchange of ideas and
specialization of effort. Still does to some extent.


It does, though specialization is not always a good thing. It results,
for example, in people who can't even fix a flat. Their tool of fixing
just about anything is the yellow pages.

As for health, dense living results in lot of civilization diseases,
higher stress levels and nowadays lung diseases because of pollution.
Probably also more cancer. Just about every time I reach the top of the
last hill to ride into the Sacramento Valley I see that brownish smog
line and I am thankful not to have to live down there. Other times I can
literally smell it.

I'm not so sure about the higher stress levels. I grew in a rural
village in New England and have lived in cities like Miami Fl, Tokyo,
Japan, Jakarta Indonesia and Bangkok Thailand and to be frank I have
never felt any stress from living in cities.


Such stress is often subconscious and not openly felt but it's there.
Honking, screeching tires, hustle and bustle, police sirens, general
traffic noise in the city ... versus tranquility, bird chirping, gentle
leaf rustling, rooster crowing in the country. It has been studied
scientifically many times.


Quite obviously you have never really lived in the country. Honking,
screeching, indeed.

What you have in the country is roosters that get up before daylight
to proclaim their rights to the big manure pile that they claim as
their fief. The cows bellowing to be milked... Good Lord, the
pressures! If you do go to town you have the be careful to be back for
milking time. No sleeping in on weekends the cows got to be milked and
the chickens fed and the eggs gathered. ...


All very regular patterns, unlike much of the stuff going in cities.


You are making things up again. Being woken up at first rooster crow,
before the sun comes up, may be a regular pattern but not particularly
a pleasant one.


I lived at places like that and found it very pleasant. Much more so
than honking and police sirens at 5am like I experienced in Chicago, New
York, Berlin, London, Paris, Seoul and other places.


Or not being able to leave the farm for more then twelve hours because
you have to do the milking?


Ever heard of the term farm hands?


You don't even want to stay up to watch the "Late Show" on the tellie
as those damned roosters don't sleep late.


I never watch late shows. Or any shows for that matter.



... No two weeks vacation either,
you got to get the plowing done and the garden in or there won't be
anything to eat next winter.


Hint: Agricultural things have progressed quite well since you were a
kid. Nowadays they have GPS controlled combines which can be operated by
staff and not only the owner of the farm.

Sure. Combine harvesting has been going on even longer then I've been
around and they are expensive, which is why you seldom see one in the
normal farmer's inventory. But what you don't think about is that to
be economical combine harvesting can only be used in large fields that
are relatively flat have straight boundaries. It isn't effective in
fields that are irregular in shape or are not relatively flat.


The farmers where I lived were smarter. They formed what was often
called a co-op, bought one or two combines together and split the costs.


And sure studies are made of the pressures of city life... All you
need to do is write up a good proposal and get the grant and away you
go. A government funded study. We get them over here. Every few years
you see an article in the Bangkok newspaper about someone that got yet
another grant to study "Prostitution in Thailand". So ignoring the
fact that prostitution have been studied innumerable times in the past
some bloke gets a grant to study them once again.


Having lived in the country and in the city, I don't need studies. I
know and made my choices accordingly. Interestingly my wife who grew up
in a huge city sees it the same way. She would never move back there.

Well yes, the best of both worlds. Out of the built up areas and still
close enough that one can drive into town for shows and shopping. One
might call it the dilettante life style.


The last time we went into Sacramento for shows or shopping was over 20
years ago when we moved to this area. Once was enough. Then about 10
years ago I drove visitors there because they wanted to see the railroad
museum. We have our own train museum right here, along the singletrack.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 5:16:03 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
snip

Quite obviously you have never really lived in the country. Honking,
screeching, indeed.

What you have in the country is roosters that get up before daylight
to proclaim their rights to the big manure pile that they claim as
their fief. The cows bellowing to be milked... Good Lord, the
pressures! If you do go to town you have the be careful to be back for
milking time. No sleeping in on weekends the cows got to be milked and
the chickens fed and the eggs gathered. ...


All very regular patterns, unlike much of the stuff going in cities.


You are making things up again. Being woken up at first rooster crow,
before the sun comes up, may be a regular pattern but not particularly
a pleasant one.

Or not being able to leave the farm for more then twelve hours because
you have to do the milking?

You don't even want to stay up to watch the "Late Show" on the tellie
as those damned roosters don't sleep late.



... No two weeks vacation either,
you got to get the plowing done and the garden in or there won't be
anything to eat next winter.


Hint: Agricultural things have progressed quite well since you were a
kid. Nowadays they have GPS controlled combines which can be operated by
staff and not only the owner of the farm.

Sure. Combine harvesting has been going on even longer then I've been
around and they are expensive, which is why you seldom see one in the
normal farmer's inventory. But what you don't think about is that to
be economical combine harvesting can only be used in large fields that
are relatively flat have straight boundaries. It isn't effective in
fields that are irregular in shape or are not relatively flat.


And sure studies are made of the pressures of city life... All you
need to do is write up a good proposal and get the grant and away you
go. A government funded study. We get them over here. Every few years
you see an article in the Bangkok newspaper about someone that got yet
another grant to study "Prostitution in Thailand". So ignoring the
fact that prostitution have been studied innumerable times in the past
some bloke gets a grant to study them once again.


Having lived in the country and in the city, I don't need studies. I
know and made my choices accordingly. Interestingly my wife who grew up
in a huge city sees it the same way. She would never move back there.

Well yes, the best of both worlds. Out of the built up areas and still
close enough that one can drive into town for shows and shopping. One
might call it the dilettante life style.

The problem with this conversation is that Joerg oscillates between the abstract "country" and the reality of Cameron Park -- which is a golf-course community with an "airpark" in the Sierra foothills up the road from Sacramento. It's a fine place to live if you like suburban developments. It does put you near open space, but its not the wild west, the Mid West or anything like the "country" that I envision -- e.g. farm land or the mostly vacant land in eastern Oregon. https://traveloregon.com/wp-content/...ning_final.jpg

I have no problem with bedroom communities or small towns near large towns. I'd live in one, and they can be quiet and relaxed -- unless they're filled with angry drunk drivers and mountain lions. For a sleepy bedroom community, Cameron Park seems more dangerous and stressful than NYC. And with planes buzzing around, it can't be that quiet close to town -- but who knows. http://www.city-data.com/forum/sacra...sion-good.html

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2017-11-29 09:38, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 5:16:03 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
snip


[...]

And sure studies are made of the pressures of city life... All
you need to do is write up a good proposal and get the grant
and away you go. A government funded study. We get them over
here. Every few years you see an article in the Bangkok
newspaper about someone that got yet another grant to study
"Prostitution in Thailand". So ignoring the fact that
prostitution have been studied innumerable times in the past
some bloke gets a grant to study them once again.


Having lived in the country and in the city, I don't need
studies. I know and made my choices accordingly. Interestingly my
wife who grew up in a huge city sees it the same way. She would
never move back there.

Well yes, the best of both worlds. Out of the built up areas and
still close enough that one can drive into town for shows and
shopping. One might call it the dilettante life style.

The problem with this conversation is that Joerg oscillates between
the abstract "country" and the reality of Cameron Park -- which is a
golf-course community with an "airpark" in the Sierra foothills up
the road from Sacramento. It's a fine place to live if you like
suburban developments. It does put you near open space, but its not
the wild west, the Mid West or anything like the "country" that I
envision -- e.g. farm land or the mostly vacant land in eastern
Oregon.
https://traveloregon.com/wp-content/...ning_final.jpg


There isn't any "oscillation". What I am saying is that it takes very
few miles on roads or, preferred by me, on singletrack and I am in truly
pristine country. Totally rural, quiet, no traffic. To achieve this in a
major city can easily require an hour of riding on a bike.


I have no problem with bedroom communities or small towns near large
towns. I'd live in one, and they can be quiet and relaxed -- unless
they're filled with angry drunk drivers and mountain lions. For a
sleepy bedroom community, Cameron Park seems more dangerous and
stressful than NYC. And with planes buzzing around, it can't be that
quiet close to town -- but who knows.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/sacra...sion-good.html


It is correct that it is almost a bedroom community though we do have a
business park right in the village. Airplane noise, yes, but a Cessna
172 purring off into the distance is something different than the din of
traffic and other noise in a large city.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDWZkXjDYsc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECGCoo3Ogxg

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 11/29/2017 1:22 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-29 09:38, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 5:16:03 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
snip


[...]

And sure studies are made of the pressures of city life... All
you need to do is write up a good proposal and get the grant
and away you go. A government funded study. We get them over
here. Every few years you see an article in the Bangkok
newspaper about someone that got yet another grant to study
"Prostitution in Thailand". So ignoring the fact that
prostitution have been studied innumerable times in the past
some bloke gets a grant to study them once again.


Having lived in the country and in the city, I don't need
studies. I know and made my choices accordingly. Interestingly my
wife who grew up in a huge city sees it the same way. She would
never move back there.

Well yes, the best of both worlds. Out of the built up areas and
still close enough that one can drive into town for shows and
shopping. One might call it the dilettante life style.

The problem with this conversation is that Joerg oscillates between
the abstract "country" and the reality of Cameron Park -- which is a
golf-course community with an "airpark" in the Sierra foothills up
the road from Sacramento.Â* It's a fine place to live if you like
suburban developments. It does put you near open space, but its not
the wild west, the Mid West or anything like the "country" that I
envision -- e.g. farm land or the mostly vacant land in eastern
Oregon.
https://traveloregon.com/wp-content/...ning_final.jpg



There isn't any "oscillation". What I am saying is that it takes very
few miles on roads or, preferred by me, on singletrack and I am in truly
pristine country. Totally rural, quiet, no traffic. To achieve this in a
major city can easily require an hour of riding on a bike.


Â*I have no problem with bedroom communities or small towns near large
towns. I'd live in one, and they can be quiet and relaxed -- unless
they're filled with angry drunk drivers and mountain lions.Â* For a
sleepy bedroom community, Cameron Park seems more dangerous and
stressful than NYC. And with planes buzzing around, it can't be that
quiet close to town -- but who knows.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/sacra...sion-good.html



It is correct that it is almost a bedroom community though we do have a
business park right in the village. Airplane noise, yes, but a Cessna
172 purring off into the distance is something different than the din of
traffic and other noise in a large city.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDWZkXjDYsc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECGCoo3Ogxg

Again, false dichotomy. You pretend the only choices are the din of a
dense mega-city vs. a neighborhood so quiet you can hear the mountain
lions tiptoeing by.

My ride today was 47 miles. I was passed by maybe 100 cars the entire
time, most of those because I wandered around some old suburbs at the
end rather than riding directly home. There were several five mile
stretches where no cars passed me at all.

Yet if I'd chosen to ride northwest instead of southeast, I could have
ridden through two decent sized cities and their government buildings,
libraries, restaurants, entertainment venues, shopping malls and more.
And since I know all the roads and streets, including the quiet ones,
traffic would have been very easy for me to handle.

I thank God I'm not so timid as to be afraid to ride the roads.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 08:01:31 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-28 16:50, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 07:50:41 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-27 16:21, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:16:19 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-27 12:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]

Oh - and I'm sure your completely separate bike paths will be
hermetically sealed, and given their own supply of filtered and
purified air, right? It wouldn't do to have them downwind from some
cars. One can't be too careful!


The one I took on Friday does come close to roads and even ... gasp
... Highway 50 at one spot where you can hear faint vroom vroom sounds.
Smells? Pine needle scent, foliage, earth, and oo, the occasionally
horse poop. I rather smell horse poop than the soot from a big Diesel.
You might be so city-addicted that you don't notice the difference but I
sure do.


Quite the opposite I would say. and, yes, I grew up in a rural
environment so I am familiar with all the smells that exist "out in
the country". But to those who actually reside in that environment
don't even notice them, they are part of the normal atmosphere.

It is only the city slickers who comment on "Oh... Smell the pine
trees. Of course there is an odor of pine trees, there ought to be as
all you can see is pine trees for miles around.

Your comment about smelling "horse poop" is a dead giveaway. The
correct term is "horse manure" and it is a normal part of the rural
atmosphere, or at least the normal rural atmosphere in areas where
horses are kept. In other areas it might be cow manure or chicken
manure and is a perfectly normal part of the environment where those
critters are raised.


As a little kid I grew up in farm country. Scientifically correct
expressions such as manure are mostly used by upscale folks that don't
live there. Locals call it poop or ****. Which is what it is. Sometimes
dung but that can already be seen as a frou-frou expression :-)


Strange comment. At least in my experience.

I never heard the term "**** spreader" used, they were called "manure
spreaders".


I heard that all the time, mostly in other languages. For example,
"Guelle Anhaenger" (ue is an umlaut in there) which loosely translates
to "**** trailer". That's how farmers called the "liquid manure" tank
trailers they carted to their fields, opened a valve and then pulled it
across behind the tractor. Leaving behind a serious stench.


If you want to include non-English languages to interpreted to English
than you open the gate to some pretty strange terms. For example, the
correct term, in Thai, for cigarette ash is "cigarette ****". An
ashtray is a "thing for cigarette ****". Of course "kee" the term I am
translating to "****" doesn't imply feces in Thai, it means something
more in line with the English term "waste".

If you want to go further abroad, the correct term to identify a
railway train is "fire wagon".

Logically, if you wish to argue English language terms then it is
probably logical to argue in English.



... No one referred to a "poop pile" out back of the barn, it
was a "manure pile". To take it a bit further I remember the term
"manure the field" used, even in polite conversation but I certainly
never heard "**** the field" used in any context.


IME they always called that fertilizing the field. I never heard anyone
say "manure the field". The steaming pile back at the farm was called
the "dung pile".


I think you are making things up..... a term used in polite company to
indicate the person in question is telling lies.


Think what you want. I told how it was, what I experienced.


You remind me of the city folk that pay extra to buy the "organic"
vegetables that are grown in a chemical free environment... so you can
be sure that none of those nasty nitrogen rich chemicals are never,
never used.


You have the wrong impression there. And no, I do not eat kale. I can't
stand kale.


Kale? How did kale get into the conversation?


You implied I was one of those eco-bio-whatever city slickers turned
urban cowboy. Those usually eat all this supposedly super-healty stuff
with the weird taste :-)

I can only assume that you simply don't know what you are talking
about. I can't remember ever seeing kale mentioned as a "super healthy
stuff", although in the middle ages, it was probably one of the most
common green vegetables in Europe.



What you do to maintain the chemicals necessary to support plant life
is spread "natural" fertilizers... i.e. manure on the farm land.


Yes, cow dung. BTDT.

Nope. Any type of manure although I seem to remember that chicken
manure was used with some caution as it tended to "burn the field" as
the old folks described it and chicken manure does have the highest
amount of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium of common farm manures
so perhaps they did know what they were talking about.


They successfully ran farms that way. Else their bank would have taken over.

Subsistence farming, i.e., a small family owned farm that supported
the family is, and probably has been for a generation or more, pretty
much a myth. Even when I was growing up in New England they were rare
as one simply couldn't make a living doing everything yourself.



So (to be a bit vulgar) first you grow the veggies in **** and then
you charge the city folks extra for doing so :-)


That's what they did where I grew up. They also sold the **** itself to
city dwellers to fertilize their flower beds. That must have been
noticed by investment bankers who, as Jay put it, sold "**** parfait" in
the shape of bundled mortgage "securities" except that those eventually
blew up.

You equate spreading manure on flower plants with spreading it on
vegetables and then selling them for a higher price because they are
"organic"?


City dwellers don't sell their plants. Why would they? It's some kind of
frou-frou phenomenon, dissing anything store-bought :-)


You know, that really says something about intelligence levels of the
city folks who buy the stuff doesn't it.


Maybe. Anyhow, I know that I live in the country when the supermarket
sells steer manure, has horse feed supplement in the main aisle and the
local radio station plays Stable Mix commercials.

You wrote the other day describing a palatial mansion "custom built" I
believe was your term, and you frequently talk about your wife
complaining about mud in the garage and now you are trying to imply
that you live in an environment with horses?

I'd have to point out that the average horse produces about 37 pounds
of feces and 2.4 gallons of urine daily, which totals about 50 pounds
of raw waste per day in feces and urine combined.

If your wife complains about the mud from one small mountain bike I
really doubt that you are stabling any horses.

The radio programs advertising animal feed is obviously not germane
when discussing your living accommodations.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 08:10:09 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-28 17:15, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 09:11:02 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-27 16:43, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 09:38:07 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-26 16:08, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 08:07:27 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-11-26 07:18, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/25/2017 3:05 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-25 12:51, wrote:
On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 1:48:06 PM UTC-7,

wrote:
the foil joke may prevent you from arranging with/into your
environment

try this ... if foil was a component then why not .... ?

J this is an older German architectural/psych concept:
terracotta
buildings are healthier than steel reinforced concrete
...a much
larger off the ground scale

I cannot locate current info on the net


Steel re-enforced in most cases means some big residential
highrise in a congested area. No wonder that those people
are or feel less healthy. I have never understood the desire
of city folk to cram together like sardines in a can.


Try an intro Anthropology book some time.
Before The Inter Webs, close proximity promoted exchange of ideas and
specialization of effort. Still does to some extent.


It does, though specialization is not always a good thing. It results,
for example, in people who can't even fix a flat. Their tool of fixing
just about anything is the yellow pages.

As for health, dense living results in lot of civilization diseases,
higher stress levels and nowadays lung diseases because of pollution.
Probably also more cancer. Just about every time I reach the top of the
last hill to ride into the Sacramento Valley I see that brownish smog
line and I am thankful not to have to live down there. Other times I can
literally smell it.

I'm not so sure about the higher stress levels. I grew in a rural
village in New England and have lived in cities like Miami Fl, Tokyo,
Japan, Jakarta Indonesia and Bangkok Thailand and to be frank I have
never felt any stress from living in cities.


Such stress is often subconscious and not openly felt but it's there.
Honking, screeching tires, hustle and bustle, police sirens, general
traffic noise in the city ... versus tranquility, bird chirping, gentle
leaf rustling, rooster crowing in the country. It has been studied
scientifically many times.


Quite obviously you have never really lived in the country. Honking,
screeching, indeed.

What you have in the country is roosters that get up before daylight
to proclaim their rights to the big manure pile that they claim as
their fief. The cows bellowing to be milked... Good Lord, the
pressures! If you do go to town you have the be careful to be back for
milking time. No sleeping in on weekends the cows got to be milked and
the chickens fed and the eggs gathered. ...


All very regular patterns, unlike much of the stuff going in cities.


You are making things up again. Being woken up at first rooster crow,
before the sun comes up, may be a regular pattern but not particularly
a pleasant one.


I lived at places like that and found it very pleasant. Much more so
than honking and police sirens at 5am like I experienced in Chicago, New
York, Berlin, London, Paris, Seoul and other places.


Or not being able to leave the farm for more then twelve hours because
you have to do the milking?


Ever heard of the term farm hands?


Oh, you have hired servants?



You don't even want to stay up to watch the "Late Show" on the tellie
as those damned roosters don't sleep late.


I never watch late shows. Or any shows for that matter.



... No two weeks vacation either,
you got to get the plowing done and the garden in or there won't be
anything to eat next winter.


Hint: Agricultural things have progressed quite well since you were a
kid. Nowadays they have GPS controlled combines which can be operated by
staff and not only the owner of the farm.

Sure. Combine harvesting has been going on even longer then I've been
around and they are expensive, which is why you seldom see one in the
normal farmer's inventory. But what you don't think about is that to
be economical combine harvesting can only be used in large fields that
are relatively flat have straight boundaries. It isn't effective in
fields that are irregular in shape or are not relatively flat.


The farmers where I lived were smarter. They formed what was often
called a co-op, bought one or two combines together and split the costs.

Sure, there are companies that do nothing but harvest grain crops but
still, use of a combine harvester pretty is much restricted to large
flat fields straight sides as a Combine just doesn't maneuver around
sharp corners very well.


And sure studies are made of the pressures of city life... All you
need to do is write up a good proposal and get the grant and away you
go. A government funded study. We get them over here. Every few years
you see an article in the Bangkok newspaper about someone that got yet
another grant to study "Prostitution in Thailand". So ignoring the
fact that prostitution have been studied innumerable times in the past
some bloke gets a grant to study them once again.


Having lived in the country and in the city, I don't need studies. I
know and made my choices accordingly. Interestingly my wife who grew up
in a huge city sees it the same way. She would never move back there.

Well yes, the best of both worlds. Out of the built up areas and still
close enough that one can drive into town for shows and shopping. One
might call it the dilettante life style.


The last time we went into Sacramento for shows or shopping was over 20
years ago when we moved to this area. Once was enough. Then about 10
years ago I drove visitors there because they wanted to see the railroad
museum. We have our own train museum right here, along the singletrack.

And for all this non-driving you require his and her's SUV's?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 17:18:13 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/29/2017 1:22 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-11-29 09:38, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 5:16:03 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
snip


[...]

And sure studies are made of the pressures of city life... All
you need to do is write up a good proposal and get the grant
and away you go. A government funded study. We get them over
here. Every few years you see an article in the Bangkok
newspaper about someone that got yet another grant to study
"Prostitution in Thailand". So ignoring the fact that
prostitution have been studied innumerable times in the past
some bloke gets a grant to study them once again.


Having lived in the country and in the city, I don't need
studies. I know and made my choices accordingly. Interestingly my
wife who grew up in a huge city sees it the same way. She would
never move back there.

Well yes, the best of both worlds. Out of the built up areas and
still close enough that one can drive into town for shows and
shopping. One might call it the dilettante life style.

The problem with this conversation is that Joerg oscillates between
the abstract "country" and the reality of Cameron Park -- which is a
golf-course community with an "airpark" in the Sierra foothills up
the road from Sacramento.* It's a fine place to live if you like
suburban developments. It does put you near open space, but its not
the wild west, the Mid West or anything like the "country" that I
envision -- e.g. farm land or the mostly vacant land in eastern
Oregon.
https://traveloregon.com/wp-content/...ning_final.jpg



There isn't any "oscillation". What I am saying is that it takes very
few miles on roads or, preferred by me, on singletrack and I am in truly
pristine country. Totally rural, quiet, no traffic. To achieve this in a
major city can easily require an hour of riding on a bike.


*I have no problem with bedroom communities or small towns near large
towns. I'd live in one, and they can be quiet and relaxed -- unless
they're filled with angry drunk drivers and mountain lions.* For a
sleepy bedroom community, Cameron Park seems more dangerous and
stressful than NYC. And with planes buzzing around, it can't be that
quiet close to town -- but who knows.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/sacra...sion-good.html



It is correct that it is almost a bedroom community though we do have a
business park right in the village. Airplane noise, yes, but a Cessna
172 purring off into the distance is something different than the din of
traffic and other noise in a large city.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDWZkXjDYsc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECGCoo3Ogxg

Again, false dichotomy. You pretend the only choices are the din of a
dense mega-city vs. a neighborhood so quiet you can hear the mountain
lions tiptoeing by.

My ride today was 47 miles. I was passed by maybe 100 cars the entire
time, most of those because I wandered around some old suburbs at the
end rather than riding directly home. There were several five mile
stretches where no cars passed me at all.

Yet if I'd chosen to ride northwest instead of southeast, I could have
ridden through two decent sized cities and their government buildings,
libraries, restaurants, entertainment venues, shopping malls and more.
And since I know all the roads and streets, including the quiet ones,
traffic would have been very easy for me to handle.

I thank God I'm not so timid as to be afraid to ride the roads.

Ohooo... but you must be some sort of daredevil. Why I've even heard
that you often ride a bicycle without even the most basic safety
feature, the bicycle helmet.
--
Cheers,

John B.