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Tomorrow's Bicycle Drive?



 
 
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  #31  
Old June 7th 19, 01:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
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Posts: 853
Default Tomorrow's Bicycle Drive?

John B. wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 05:52:31 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 11:26:25 +1000, James
wrote:

On 7/6/19 9:26 am, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 14:01:28 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2019 16:48:57 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote:

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM

In the narration he mentions that a 24 speed gear set, or even more,
would be perfectly feasible. No wires, no cables, either.

Just a rehash of old ideas. The same reasons for the failure of shaft
drives will see it fail again. Of couses, as ther is electronics
involved, that will introduce another pile of reasons for it to fail.

Why did shaft drives fail? Complexities?
I *think*, generally heavier and less efficient than a chain. Of course
they could be made robust enough to be reliable, but that generally adds
weight.

I've only looked at one shaft drive bike, and just looking at it I
didn't think that the gears or the shaft looked especially fragile
given the amount of power that they would have to transmit . After all
we are talking about a half horsepower power plant, or less :-)

But a chain drive may be in the 98% efficiency range and I doubt that
two 90 degree gear drives would be as efficient and probably cost more
too.
--
cheers,

John B.



It may only be a half a horsepower, but 100 ft-lbs of torque is easily
attainable at the crank.


But, I can apply 100 ft-lbs of torque with my little finger :-)
In fact the average US male, who weighs 197.6 lbs, can exert a force
of 110.16 ft-lbs, using a 170mm crank arm, simply by standing on the
pedal.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/320917.php
--
cheers,

John B.



Good, so we’re in full agreement then.

Ads
  #32  
Old June 7th 19, 02:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,131
Default Tomorrow's Bicycle Drive?

On Fri, 07 Jun 2019 11:38:22 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 04:03:01 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Jun 2019 06:26:59 +0700, John B. wrote:


Why did shaft drives fail?

Solp and flex were one. Road crap is another. Hard to maintain.
I can not wait to see that drive train after a days mtn biking on wet,
rainy days.

Complexities? And so we have hydraulic brake systems as opposed to
simply mechanical brakes, electronic shifters as opposed to simple
mechanical systems, and so on.


Yep, all extra points of unreliability.

The real relaibility test is, can I ride it home when stuff fails.


You mean like when the chain breaks or a wheel "tacos"?


I've used fencing wire to fix chains.
It was the first and last time I did a long tour on a new brand of chain.
In any case, you can scooter it. BTDT.

And I've flattened a taco wheel enough to get it rotating. No brakes
though, except shoe leather.
  #33  
Old June 7th 19, 02:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Tomorrow's Bicycle Drive?

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:03:05 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jun 2019 06:26:59 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 14:01:28 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2019 16:48:57 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote:

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM

In the narration he mentions that a 24 speed gear set, or even more,
would be perfectly feasible. No wires, no cables, either.

Just a rehash of old ideas. The same reasons for the failure of shaft
drives will see it fail again. Of couses, as ther is electronics
involved, that will introduce another pile of reasons for it to fail.


Why did shaft drives fail?

Solp and flex were one. Road crap is another. Hard to maintain.
I can not wait to see that drive train after a days mtn biking on wet,
rainy days.

Complexities? And so we have hydraulic brake
systems as opposed to simply mechanical brakes, electronic shifters as
opposed to simple mechanical systems, and so on.


Yep, all extra points of unreliability.

The real relaibility test is, can I ride it home when stuff fails.


You can ride home when electronic shifters fail, so long as you don't live at the top of a steep grade -- same with hydro brakes, so long as you don't live at the bottom of a steep grade. Something bizarre would have to occur to have both brakes fail.

BTW, shaft-drive bikes get a lot of use around here. The problem is the gear-boxes refusing to shift in sub-zero C weather. https://www.wweek.com/culture/2018/0...-observations/

The Biketown bikes are incredibly heavy and slow.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #34  
Old June 7th 19, 07:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Tomorrow's Bicycle Drive?

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:31:13 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:15:10 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:11:17 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 5:49:03 AM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM

In the narration he mentions that a 24 speed gear set, or even more,
would be perfectly feasible. No wires, no cables, either.
--

Cheers,

John B.

I can just imaging what road grit when it rains will do to those exposed bearings and interface. Can we say RAPID wear?

Cheers


What exposed bearings? They are sealed ceramic bearings. But again, the frame must be custom built for it. So there's no way it would ever make it on the market.


Custom Frame? You mean like a MTB with fore and aft suspension? That
will never make it on the market?
--
cheers,

John B.


There is a very strong purpose for full suspension in racing and people tend to copy racers. But ravers won't use drive shafts because they are inherently very lossy. Hydraulic brakes and electronic shifting are there just to increase the cost of a bike.
  #35  
Old June 7th 19, 10:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,747
Default Tomorrow's Bicycle Drive?

Tom Kunich writes:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:31:13 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:15:10 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:11:17 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 5:49:03 AM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM

In the narration he mentions that a 24 speed gear set, or even more,
would be perfectly feasible. No wires, no cables, either.
--

Cheers,

John B.

I can just imaging what road grit when it rains will do to those
exposed bearings and interface. Can we say RAPID wear?

Cheers

What exposed bearings? They are sealed ceramic bearings. But again,
the frame must be custom built for it. So there's no way it would
ever make it on the market.


Custom Frame? You mean like a MTB with fore and aft suspension? That
will never make it on the market?
--
cheers,

John B.


There is a very strong purpose for full suspension in racing and
people tend to copy racers. But ravers won't use drive shafts because

^^^^^^ Drive shafts are going to be
right up there with glow sticks and
pacifiers

they are inherently very lossy. Hydraulic brakes and electronic
shifting are there just to increase the cost of a bike.


--
  #36  
Old June 7th 19, 11:31 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,153
Default Tomorrow's Bicycle Drive?

On 7/6/19 11:07 pm, news18 wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jun 2019 11:38:22 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 04:03:01 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Jun 2019 06:26:59 +0700, John B. wrote:


Why did shaft drives fail?
Solp and flex were one. Road crap is another. Hard to maintain.
I can not wait to see that drive train after a days mtn biking on wet,
rainy days.

Complexities? And so we have hydraulic brake systems as opposed to
simply mechanical brakes, electronic shifters as opposed to simple
mechanical systems, and so on.

Yep, all extra points of unreliability.

The real relaibility test is, can I ride it home when stuff fails.


You mean like when the chain breaks or a wheel "tacos"?


I've used fencing wire to fix chains.
It was the first and last time I did a long tour on a new brand of chain.
In any case, you can scooter it. BTDT.

And I've flattened a taco wheel enough to get it rotating. No brakes
though, except shoe leather.


In addition, if you carry a multi tool with a chain breaker in your
saddle bag as I have, you can fix a broken chain in minutes.

--
JS
  #37  
Old June 8th 19, 03:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,131
Default Tomorrow's Bicycle Drive?

On Sat, 08 Jun 2019 08:31:33 +1000, James wrote:

On 7/6/19 11:07 pm, news18 wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jun 2019 11:38:22 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 04:03:01 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Jun 2019 06:26:59 +0700, John B. wrote:


Why did shaft drives fail?
Solp and flex were one. Road crap is another. Hard to maintain.
I can not wait to see that drive train after a days mtn biking on
wet,
rainy days.

Complexities? And so we have hydraulic brake systems as opposed to
simply mechanical brakes, electronic shifters as opposed to simple
mechanical systems, and so on.

Yep, all extra points of unreliability.

The real relaibility test is, can I ride it home when stuff fails.

You mean like when the chain breaks or a wheel "tacos"?


I've used fencing wire to fix chains.
It was the first and last time I did a long tour on a new brand of
chain.
In any case, you can scooter it. BTDT.

And I've flattened a taco wheel enough to get it rotating. No brakes
though, except shoe leather.


In addition, if you carry a multi tool with a chain breaker in your
saddle bag as I have, you can fix a broken chain in minutes.


BTDT, that is standard practice, but this particular batch of chains
managed to fall apart in multiple links. Eventually your left with no
slack and very restricted gear range, if any.
  #38  
Old June 8th 19, 04:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,638
Default Tomorrow's Bicycle Drive?

On Fri, 07 Jun 2019 11:38:22 +0700, John B.
wrote:

You mean like when the chain breaks or a wheel "tacos"?
http://tacocleanse.com/one-taco-you-...-bicycle-taco/


I rode home with a broken chain once. I was amazed at how far I could
get up a hill before I had to get off and push.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net

  #39  
Old June 8th 19, 06:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 547
Default Tomorrow's Bicycle Drive?

On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 11:09:59 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:31:13 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:15:10 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:11:17 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 5:49:03 AM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM

In the narration he mentions that a 24 speed gear set, or even more,
would be perfectly feasible. No wires, no cables, either.
--

Cheers,

John B.

I can just imaging what road grit when it rains will do to those exposed bearings and interface. Can we say RAPID wear?

Cheers

What exposed bearings? They are sealed ceramic bearings. But again, the frame must be custom built for it. So there's no way it would ever make it on the market.


Custom Frame? You mean like a MTB with fore and aft suspension? That
will never make it on the market?
--
cheers,

John B.


There is a very strong purpose for full suspension in racing and people tend to copy racers. But ravers won't use drive shafts because they are inherently very lossy. Hydraulic brakes and electronic shifting are there just to increase the cost of a bike.


But the article about this "NEW" shaft drive system says that it is 1%
more efficient than a chain drive. You don't think that "racers" will
want a carbon fiber bike that will likely be as light as legal and 1%
more efficient?
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #40  
Old June 10th 19, 06:31 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Tomorrow's Bicycle Drive?

On Friday, June 7, 2019 at 3:31:41 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 7/6/19 11:07 pm, news18 wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jun 2019 11:38:22 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 04:03:01 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Jun 2019 06:26:59 +0700, John B. wrote:


Why did shaft drives fail?
Solp and flex were one. Road crap is another. Hard to maintain.
I can not wait to see that drive train after a days mtn biking on wet,
rainy days.

Complexities? And so we have hydraulic brake systems as opposed to
simply mechanical brakes, electronic shifters as opposed to simple
mechanical systems, and so on.

Yep, all extra points of unreliability.

The real relaibility test is, can I ride it home when stuff fails.

You mean like when the chain breaks or a wheel "tacos"?


I've used fencing wire to fix chains.
It was the first and last time I did a long tour on a new brand of chain.
In any case, you can scooter it. BTDT.

And I've flattened a taco wheel enough to get it rotating. No brakes
though, except shoe leather.


In addition, if you carry a multi tool with a chain breaker in your
saddle bag as I have, you can fix a broken chain in minutes.

--
JS


True but shaft drives made properly do not break.
 




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