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Sonora Pass ride description & photos up
http://www.chainreaction.com/sonora2005.htm for our ride last Sunday from
Dardanelle, over Sonora Pass to the Marine Base, and then back over the pass to Dardanelle. This ride is only 52 miles, and, surprisingly, only 7000ft of climbing. But it's proof that there's more to a ride than can be conveyed by statistics. As usual, a heavy download with lots of photos. I've also included links to satellite & topo maps of the more-legendary sections of the road. --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA |
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Sonora Pass ride description & photos up
"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote in message t... http://www.chainreaction.com/sonora2005.htm for our ride last Sunday from Dardanelle, over Sonora Pass to the Marine Base, and then back over the pass to Dardanelle. This ride is only 52 miles, and, surprisingly, only 7000ft of climbing. But it's proof that there's more to a ride than can be conveyed by statistics. As usual, a heavy download with lots of photos. I've also included links to satellite & topo maps of the more-legendary sections of the road. --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA As always, nice photos and write-up Mike. I did not get to Sonora Pass this year and wish I had but I get to experience it vicariously through you. Sonora Pass is a great climb and a challenge for us lowlanders but the numbers never seem that terrible. As you say, 7000 ft of climbing really shouldn't kill you. I have put a couple plots here... http://www.geocities.com/banquo_lives/Sonora.htm ....that show the climb for each mile from Dardanelle to the top and from Leavitt to the top. Measured this way, the steepest mile climbs 574 ft to the window. An average of almost 11%. The staircase (AKA Queue du Porc) climbs 568 feet in a mile. the steepest mile on the east side is 486 feet. The east side always feels steeper but I am tired. The last few feet of the east side to the summit are the hardest for me. There may very well be a spot that is 26% but when I am grunting along at that point, I never feel like stopping to take measurements. The numbers were recorded to the nearest foot by my bike computer but I am certain they are not accurate to the nearest foot. I'll go next year. |
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Sonora Pass ride description & photos up
Sonora Pass is a great climb and a challenge for us lowlanders but the
numbers never seem that terrible. As you say, 7000 ft of climbing really shouldn't kill you. I have put a couple plots here... http://www.geocities.com/banquo_lives/Sonora.htm ...that show the climb for each mile from Dardanelle to the top and from Leavitt to the top. Measured this way, the steepest mile climbs 574 ft to the window. An average of almost 11%. The staircase (AKA Queue du Porc) climbs 568 feet in a mile. the steepest mile on the east side is 486 feet. If you average grades out over kilometers instead of mile distances, you end up with considerably-steeper sections (and, obviously, subsequent near-plateaus that don't otherwise show up). It would be interesting to find out why the road was laid out the way it is. On the west side, there are areas where there simply is no other choice (such as the Golden Staircase). But on the east side, one could almost believe there's a method to the madness, as painfully-steep sections generally give way to nearly-flat in a pattern that repeats itself several times. The east side always feels steeper but I am tired. The last few feet of the east side to the summit are the hardest for me. There may very well be a spot that is 26% but when I am grunting along at that point, I never feel like stopping to take measurements. Likewise, the back side (east) *seems* worse, but my guess is that, if you were attacking it first, it wouldn't seem nearly so bad. And I'll bet it would be nightmarish descending into Dardanelle, turning around and having to face the "window" section. There's also less elevation gain on the east side, since you only drop to 6700ft or so, while on the west side, you're starting out at 5800ft. In terms of elevation gain, the west side is still less climbing than Mt. Hamilton, but feel so much worse. Altitude effect is the first thing that comes to mind, yet I rarely feel like I'm constrained by the thin air. The curious thing about that is that, at lower elevations, my breathing often hampers my climbing ability (I breathe so hard I sound like a freight train, particularly when it's a bit on the cool side...). At altitude, I'm just like everyone else. By the way, if you check the CalTrans website (http://www.caltrans.ca.gov/), it says 108 is now closed due to snow. Hopefully not for the season; this weekend looks to be fairly nice, so maybe someone could get one last crack at it! --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA "Dan" wrote in message ... "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote in message t... http://www.chainreaction.com/sonora2005.htm for our ride last Sunday from Dardanelle, over Sonora Pass to the Marine Base, and then back over the pass to Dardanelle. This ride is only 52 miles, and, surprisingly, only 7000ft of climbing. But it's proof that there's more to a ride than can be conveyed by statistics. As usual, a heavy download with lots of photos. I've also included links to satellite & topo maps of the more-legendary sections of the road. --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA As always, nice photos and write-up Mike. I did not get to Sonora Pass this year and wish I had but I get to experience it vicariously through you. Sonora Pass is a great climb and a challenge for us lowlanders but the numbers never seem that terrible. As you say, 7000 ft of climbing really shouldn't kill you. I have put a couple plots here... http://www.geocities.com/banquo_lives/Sonora.htm ...that show the climb for each mile from Dardanelle to the top and from Leavitt to the top. Measured this way, the steepest mile climbs 574 ft to the window. An average of almost 11%. The staircase (AKA Queue du Porc) climbs 568 feet in a mile. the steepest mile on the east side is 486 feet. The east side always feels steeper but I am tired. The last few feet of the east side to the summit are the hardest for me. There may very well be a spot that is 26% but when I am grunting along at that point, I never feel like stopping to take measurements. The numbers were recorded to the nearest foot by my bike computer but I am certain they are not accurate to the nearest foot. I'll go next year. |
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Sonora Pass ride description & photos up
Mike Jacoubowsky writes:
Sonora Pass is a great climb and a challenge for us lowlanders but the numbers never seem that terrible. As you say, 7000 ft of climbing really shouldn't kill you. I have put a couple plots here... http://www.geocities.com/banquo_lives/Sonora.htm ...that show the climb for each mile from Dardanelle to the top and from Leavitt to the top. Measured this way, the steepest mile climbs 574 ft to the window. An average of almost 11%. The staircase (AKA Queue du Porc) climbs 568 feet in a mile. the steepest mile on the east side is 486 feet. If you average grades out over kilometers instead of mile distances, you end up with considerably-steeper sections (and, obviously, subsequent near-plateaus that don't otherwise show up). It would be interesting to find out why the road was laid out the way it is. On the west side, there are areas where there simply is no other choice (such as the Golden Staircase). But on the east side, one could almost believe there's a method to the madness, as painfully-steep sections generally give way to nearly-flat in a pattern that repeats itself several times. Please Jake, its "The Golden Stairs" not staircase, stairway, or stairwell. "The Golden Stairs" is a religious concept for the ramp to heaven, the origin of the name for such pieces of road. Just as China Grade name in Santa Cruz County got its from truckers hauling redwood logs down that STEEP, narrow and twisty road, convinced it should come out in China (as in China syndrome). http://www.postalmuseum.si.edu/gold/apag2.html http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/704.html http://henkbinnendijk.tripod.com/chi...rail/id16.html http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=528 There is a way to avoid the Golden Stairs: http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Recreat...erraSpring.htm Jobst Brandt |
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Sonora Pass ride description & photos up
"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote in message http://www.geocities.com/banquo_lives/Sonora.htm If you average grades out over kilometers instead of mile distances, you end up with considerably-steeper sections (and, obviously, subsequent near-plateaus that don't otherwise show up). It would be interesting to find out why the road was laid out the way it is. On the west side, there are areas where there simply is no other choice (such as the Golden Staircase). But on the east side, one could almost believe there's a method to the madness, as painfully-steep sections generally give way to nearly-flat in a pattern that repeats itself several times. I have added a climb per 1/2 mile to the plots linked above. It shows steeper bits steeper but we are headed for the much contested "how to measure steepness" discussion. I am sure we could find a millimeter along the way that is dead vertical if not overhanging. As you know, steepness and difficulty are dependant on many variables. As an example, I went up Mt. Madonna road from Redwood Retreat Road to the top last weekend. It was awful. The dirt part at the top was in terrible shape with huge cat tracks and loose dirt. My fat 700x25 tires just didn't do it and I went feet down at two spots going up. Likewise, the back side (east) *seems* worse, but my guess is that, if you were attacking it first, it wouldn't seem nearly so bad. And I'll bet it would be nightmarish descending into Dardanelle, turning around and having to face the "window" section. That sounds ugly, we should try it sometime. There's also less elevation gain on the east side, since you only drop to 6700ft or so, while on the west side, you're starting out at 5800ft. In terms of elevation gain, the west side is still less climbing than Mt. Hamilton, but feel so much worse. Altitude effect is the first thing that comes to mind, yet I rarely feel like I'm constrained by the thin air. The curious thing about that is that, at lower elevations, my breathing often hampers my climbing ability (I breathe so hard I sound like a freight train, particularly when it's a bit on the cool side...). At altitude, I'm just like everyone else. I don't think you can breath too much up there Mike. Sometimes I blow like a freight train on purpose. I find it helps at times .. helps my climbing but maybe not my pride. By the way, if you check the CalTrans website (http://www.caltrans.ca.gov/), it says 108 is now closed due to snow. Hopefully not for the season; this weekend looks to be fairly nice, so maybe someone could get one last crack at it! Would love to go but have kid duties... |
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Sonora Pass ride description & photos up
wrote in message ... Please Jake, its "The Golden Stairs" not staircase, stairway, or stairwell. "The Golden Stairs" is a religious concept for the ramp to heaven, the origin of the name for such pieces of road. Just as China Grade name in Santa Cruz County got its from truckers hauling redwood logs down that STEEP, narrow and twisty road, convinced it should come out in China (as in China syndrome). http://www.postalmuseum.si.edu/gold/apag2.html http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/704.html http://henkbinnendijk.tripod.com/chi...rail/id16.html http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=528 There is a way to avoid the Golden Stairs: http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Recreat...erraSpring.htm Jobst Brandt Hey Jobst- I have heard it called "Queue du Porc" which I kinda like. Have you heard it called this? "Religious Concept" seems a bit heavy doesn't it? |
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Sonora Pass ride description & photos up
Please Jake, its "The Golden Stairs" not staircase, stairway, or
stairwell. "The Golden Stairs" is a religious concept for the ramp to heaven, the origin of the name for such pieces of road. Thanks, I've gone back and changed the references on a couple of my web pages. --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com wrote in message ... Mike Jacoubowsky writes: Sonora Pass is a great climb and a challenge for us lowlanders but the numbers never seem that terrible. As you say, 7000 ft of climbing really shouldn't kill you. I have put a couple plots here... http://www.geocities.com/banquo_lives/Sonora.htm ...that show the climb for each mile from Dardanelle to the top and from Leavitt to the top. Measured this way, the steepest mile climbs 574 ft to the window. An average of almost 11%. The staircase (AKA Queue du Porc) climbs 568 feet in a mile. the steepest mile on the east side is 486 feet. If you average grades out over kilometers instead of mile distances, you end up with considerably-steeper sections (and, obviously, subsequent near-plateaus that don't otherwise show up). It would be interesting to find out why the road was laid out the way it is. On the west side, there are areas where there simply is no other choice (such as the Golden Staircase). But on the east side, one could almost believe there's a method to the madness, as painfully-steep sections generally give way to nearly-flat in a pattern that repeats itself several times. Please Jake, its "The Golden Stairs" not staircase, stairway, or stairwell. "The Golden Stairs" is a religious concept for the ramp to heaven, the origin of the name for such pieces of road. Just as China Grade name in Santa Cruz County got its from truckers hauling redwood logs down that STEEP, narrow and twisty road, convinced it should come out in China (as in China syndrome). http://www.postalmuseum.si.edu/gold/apag2.html http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/704.html http://henkbinnendijk.tripod.com/chi...rail/id16.html http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=528 There is a way to avoid the Golden Stairs: http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Recreat...erraSpring.htm Jobst Brandt |
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Sonora Pass ride description & photos up
Dan wrote:
I have added a climb per 1/2 mile to the plots linked above. It shows steeper bits steeper but we are headed for the much contested "how to measure steepness" discussion. I am sure we could find a millimeter along the way that is dead vertical if not overhanging. I'd argue the natural convolution parameter for climbs is the amount one can climb in on a load of ATP, which lasts around 10 seconds. For example, OLH is around 390 meters, so if you can climb OLH in 21:40, this corresponds to 18 vertical meters per minute, or 3 meters per 10 seconds. Using a 20% grade as a reference, this corresponds to a lateral length scale of 15 meters. (okay, actually sqrt(15^2 + 3^2) = 15.3 meters). This result "feels" right to me, based on my history of mental distress at encountering short steep sections of road. So I'd convolve the profile with a Gaussian of sigma 15 meters. This renders as fully irrelevent your 1 mm example, yet a half mile discrization clearly is inadequate at reproducing the feel of the road. Commonly, people suggest discritzation as the way to this end (ie measing th eroad every 15 meters, or half-mile, or whatever). This is an inferior choice, because the result depends on where you start. For example, if you're measuring every 15 meters the the road climbs from 0 to 15, then descends from 15 to 30, the result is profoundly different if you measure at 0, 15, and 30 then if you measure at -7.5, +7.5, +22.5, +37.5. It's way better to oversample then filter down with convolution. Dan |
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Sonora Pass ride description & photos up
"Dan" wrote in message ... Hey Jobst- I have heard it called "Queue du Porc" which I kinda like. Have you heard it called this? "Religious Concept" seems a bit heavy doesn't it? Having done some research, I will answer my own post. I really should get into the habit of doing the research before posting. I have met people from Tuolumne County who referred to "Que de Porka." A search of the geographic name base finds a "Que de Porka Resort" marked at Kennedy meadows http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...orka+resort%22 A different search finds: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ue+de+porka%22 It seems that I was wrong in calling the section of road at The Golden Staircase Queue du Porc but I seem to recall a cyclist from Twain Harte (who apparently rides up the pass about once a week) call it something like that. It may be that the window is just a feature of the Que de Porka. We need to find a Tuolumne County historian. |
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Sonora Pass ride description & photos up
"Dan Connelly" wrote in message et... Dan wrote: I have added a climb per 1/2 mile to the plots linked above. It shows steeper bits steeper but we are headed for the much contested "how to measure steepness" discussion. I am sure we could find a millimeter along the way that is dead vertical if not overhanging. I'd argue the natural convolution parameter for climbs is the amount one can climb in on a load of ATP, which lasts around 10 seconds. For example, OLH is around 390 meters, so if you can climb OLH in 21:40, this corresponds to 18 vertical meters per minute, or 3 meters per 10 seconds. Using a 20% grade as a reference, this corresponds to a lateral length scale of 15 meters. (okay, actually sqrt(15^2 + 3^2) = 15.3 meters). This result "feels" right to me, based on my history of mental distress at encountering short steep sections of road. So I'd convolve the profile with a Gaussian of sigma 15 meters. This renders as fully irrelevent your 1 mm example, yet a half mile discrization clearly is inadequate at reproducing the feel of the road. Commonly, people suggest discritzation as the way to this end (ie measing th eroad every 15 meters, or half-mile, or whatever). This is an inferior choice, because the result depends on where you start. For example, if you're measuring every 15 meters the the road climbs from 0 to 15, then descends from 15 to 30, the result is profoundly different if you measure at 0, 15, and 30 then if you measure at -7.5, +7.5, +22.5, +37.5. It's way better to oversample then filter down with convolution. Dan Okay, I had to lookup ATP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphate I have no idea what OLH is. The establishment of a standard distance interval is one way and 15 meters is a good suggestion. Longer rides might suggest longer intervals. It might, for an individual, make more sense to use a time interval rather than a distance interval but we are headed off into an area of differing personal opinions that cannot be resolved and I won't argue for either. The suffering and/or pleasure involved in a climb varies with weather terrain altitude, speed, hydration, nutrition, age, condition, equipment, etc. Okay, I am getting in over my head here so cut me some slack if I am off base. I gather from your post that you are suggesting that a Gaussian filter be applied to the data set. My understanding is that this is a low pass filter in the frequency domain. The shape of this filter is non-linear and based on the normal distribution. Filtering and smoothing certainly make a data set look nicer but if the original data set is accurate and contains no noise, filtering and/or smoothing will create a false data set with error introduced into virtually every data point (no post-filter data point represents reality). I have seen otherwise knowledgeable people filter out the interesting part of a data set because they did not like it, understand it or it did not fit their preconceptions. Seeing the world through a Gaussian blur can be rosy but you can also miss important detail. There is also the aliasing problem inherent in discrete sampling but as you suggest, over-sampling will usually take care of this. IMHO, the best way to judge the Sonora Pass climb is to go do it. Do it many times and try changing the variables. |
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