Sport Bike vs Race bikes

Bikes are now expected to be so light that a damaged frame is a throw away. Race bikes can fail all by themselves where very often they do not take pictures of he race bikes that fell apart beneath a rider. This lends a rather false sense of reliability. Carbon Fiber can be made very reliable. But not light and cheap. And race bikes have to be those two of they hope to sell. Another problem is that manufacturers that subcontract their products out to China had to worry a great deal about counterfeits that do not go through the extensive quality control procedures that maintain the reliability and safety of their products. Pinarello in particular has had a lot of problems with counterfeit products. Even Look, one of the most reliable CF bikes made has had counterfeiting. Even out of their own molds as people sneak in after hours and turn out substandard products. Time is boosting the reliability of their line by adding Kevlar to their layups. This is a longer fiber and makes CF bikes a great deal more difficult to break. One of the problems with Time is that they never gave a damn about how rigid their frames are and you must run fatter tires to make them ridable. But given that they have everything except cheap going for them.

My conversion to titanium bikes back closer to the size of the steel bikes I rode for so many years does make my riding a great deal more comfortable than it has been for the last 5 years where XL means a 58 cm bike and you lean over so much that your hands and arms are numb all the time. I see where Colnago is now making an XXL (61 cm) but since they do not trust their own product I'm hardly going to do so myself. But I will say that their CLX3.0 really impressed the hell out of me. And especially with Di2 so that shifting is effortless and dead on. But this product was NOT designed by Colnago. It has English bottom bracket and it is heavier built than Colnago would do.

I new fork for the Airborne will come in any time now from FedEx and I will see whether it is a metal or carbon steering shaft. If it is metal I can cut it to length myself. If it is carbon, I will leave it to the shop who is swapping the fork crown anyway. Plus I have a couple of bad Chinese bearings in my rear wheel that need to be replaced with something like a Timken that will last forever.

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 9:06:15 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Bikes are now expected to be so light that a damaged frame is a throw away. Race bikes can fail all by themselves where very often they do not take pictures of he race bikes that fell apart beneath a rider. This lends a rather false sense of reliability. Carbon Fiber can be made very reliable. But not light and cheap. And race bikes have to be those two of they hope to sell. Another problem is that manufacturers that subcontract their products out to China had to worry a great deal about counterfeits that do not go through the extensive quality control procedures that maintain the reliability and safety of their products. Pinarello in particular has had a lot of problems with counterfeit products. Even Look, one of the most reliable CF bikes made has had counterfeiting. Even out of their own molds as people sneak in after hours and turn out substandard products. Time is boosting the reliability of their line by adding Kevlar to their layups. This is a longer fiber and makes CF bikes a great deal more difficult to break. One of the problems with Time is that they never gave a damn about how rigid their frames are and you must run fatter tires to make them ridable. But given that they have everything except cheap going for them.

My conversion to titanium bikes back closer to the size of the steel bikes I rode for so many years does make my riding a great deal more comfortable than it has been for the last 5 years where XL means a 58 cm bike and you lean over so much that your hands and arms are numb all the time. I see where Colnago is now making an XXL (61 cm) but since they do not trust their own product I'm hardly going to do so myself. But I will say that their CLX3.0 really impressed the hell out of me. And especially with Di2 so that shifting is effortless and dead on. But this product was NOT designed by Colnago. It has English bottom bracket and it is heavier built than Colnago would do.

I new fork for the Airborne will come in any time now from FedEx and I will see whether it is a metal or carbon steering shaft. If it is metal I can cut it to length myself. If it is carbon, I will leave it to the shop who is swapping the fork crown anyway. Plus I have a couple of bad Chinese bearings in my rear wheel that need to be replaced with something like a Timken that will last forever.

You ordered a fork without knowing what the steerer was made of? WTF? I hope you have a compression plug sitting around.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 12:40:59 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 9:06:15 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Bikes are now expected to be so light that a damaged frame is a throw away. Race bikes can fail all by themselves where very often they do not take pictures of he race bikes that fell apart beneath a rider. This lends a rather false sense of reliability. Carbon Fiber can be made very reliable. But not light and cheap. And race bikes have to be those two of they hope to sell. Another problem is that manufacturers that subcontract their products out to China had to worry a great deal about counterfeits that do not go through the extensive quality control procedures that maintain the reliability and safety of their products. Pinarello in particular has had a lot of problems with counterfeit products. Even Look, one of the most reliable CF bikes made has had counterfeiting. Even out of their own molds as people sneak in after hours and turn out substandard products. Time is boosting the reliability of their line by adding Kevlar to their layups. This is a longer fiber and makes CF bikes a great deal more difficult to break. One of the problems with Time is that they never gave a damn about how rigid their frames are and you must run fatter tires to make them ridable. But given that they have everything except cheap going for them.

My conversion to titanium bikes back closer to the size of the steel bikes I rode for so many years does make my riding a great deal more comfortable than it has been for the last 5 years where XL means a 58 cm bike and you lean over so much that your hands and arms are numb all the time. I see where Colnago is now making an XXL (61 cm) but since they do not trust their own product I'm hardly going to do so myself. But I will say that their CLX3.0 really impressed the hell out of me. And especially with Di2 so that shifting is effortless and dead on. But this product was NOT designed by Colnago. It has English bottom bracket and it is heavier built than Colnago would do.

I new fork for the Airborne will come in any time now from FedEx and I will see whether it is a metal or carbon steering shaft. If it is metal I can cut it to length myself. If it is carbon, I will leave it to the shop who is swapping the fork crown anyway. Plus I have a couple of bad Chinese bearings in my rear wheel that need to be replaced with something like a Timken that will last forever.
You ordered a fork without knowing what the steerer was made of? WTF? I hope you have a compression plug sitting around.

The owner of the store had the 1" fork in storage so long he couldn't remember and I have the proper plugs for either. For the price I wasn't going to bother him.

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 11:06:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Bikes are now expected to be so light that a damaged frame is a throw away.

Its been 50 years since bike frames were considered repairable. Up through the 1970s, every bike frame was lugged steel. Repairable I guess. But starting in the 1980s, Cannondale made their welded aluminum frames, Look and Trek made lugged carbon frames, Alan and Vitus made lugged aluminum frames.. None of these were repairable. Then in the 1990s steel frames were TIG welded, not lugged and brazed. From the 1980s onwards, no bike frames have been repaired when damaged. Just like no one repairs forks or handlebars or rims or cranks. Why not? You could weld all of those back together and repair them.

With cars and houses, we repair those things. But clothes and shoes, we no longer repair those things. Once we did. But not now. My Mom can and does repair some of my clothes that I rip. But most folks don't have Moms who can sew. And wearing ripped clothes is fashionable I think. My Wrangler jeans are $19 for a brand new pair at WalMart. If my Mom could not patch my torn jeans, would it make sense to hire someone to do it? No. The soles on my sneakers eventually wear out. I suspect a cobbler could glue on a new sole. But I can buy new shoes for $50 or less. Does it make sense to repair shoes? For several hundred dollar dress shoes with leather soles, yes. But for most shoes, no. There have been a few threads on this forum about replacing chainrings and people have said you can buy a whole new crankset with new rings for less than you can buy replacement chainrings. Does it make sense to spend more for rings only or just spend less and buy a whole new crankset.

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 5:37:08 p.m. UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 11:06:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Bikes are now expected to be so light that a damaged frame is a throw away.
Its been 50 years since bike frames were considered repairable. Up through the 1970s, every bike frame was lugged steel. Repairable I guess. But starting in the 1980s, Cannondale made their welded aluminum frames, Look and Trek made lugged carbon frames, Alan and Vitus made lugged aluminum frames. None of these were repairable. Then in the 1990s steel frames were TIG welded, not lugged and brazed. From the 1980s onwards, no bike frames have been repaired when damaged. Just like no one repairs forks or handlebars or rims or cranks. Why not? You could weld all of those back together and repair them.

With cars and houses, we repair those things. But clothes and shoes, we no longer repair those things. Once we did. But not now. My Mom can and does repair some of my clothes that I rip. But most folks don't have Moms who can sew. And wearing ripped clothes is fashionable I think. My Wrangler jeans are $19 for a brand new pair at WalMart. If my Mom could not patch my torn jeans, would it make sense to hire someone to do it? No. The soles on my sneakers eventually wear out. I suspect a cobbler could glue on a new sole. But I can buy new shoes for $50 or less. Does it make sense to repair shoes? For several hundred dollar dress shoes with leather soles, yes. But for most shoes, no. There have been a few threads on this forum about replacing chainrings and people have said you can buy a whole new crankset with new rings for less than you can buy replacement chainrings. Does it make sense to spend more for rings only or just spend less and buy a whole new crankset.

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 5:37:08 p.m. UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 11:06:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Bikes are now expected to be so light that a damaged frame is a throw away.
Its been 50 years since bike frames were considered repairable. Up through the 1970s, every bike frame was lugged steel. Repairable I guess. But starting in the 1980s, Cannondale made their welded aluminum frames, Look and Trek made lugged carbon frames, Alan and Vitus made lugged aluminum frames. None of these were repairable. Then in the 1990s steel frames were TIG welded, not lugged and brazed. From the 1980s onwards, no bike frames have been repaired when damaged. Just like no one repairs forks or handlebars or rims or cranks. Why not? You could weld all of those back together and repair them.

With cars and houses, we repair those things. But clothes and shoes, we no longer repair those things. Once we did. But not now. My Mom can and does repair some of my clothes that I rip. But most folks don't have Moms who can sew. And wearing ripped clothes is fashionable I think. My Wrangler jeans are $19 for a brand new pair at WalMart. If my Mom could not patch my torn jeans, would it make sense to hire someone to do it? No. The soles on my sneakers eventually wear out. I suspect a cobbler could glue on a new sole. But I can buy new shoes for $50 or less. Does it make sense to repair shoes? For several hundred dollar dress shoes with leather soles, yes. But for most shoes, no. There have been a few threads on this forum about replacing chainrings and people have said you can buy a whole new crankset with new rings for less than you can buy replacement chainrings. Does it make sense to spend more for rings only or just spend less and buy a whole new crankset.

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 3:28:25 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 5:37:08 p.m. UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 11:06:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Bikes are now expected to be so light that a damaged frame is a throw away.
Its been 50 years since bike frames were considered repairable. Up through the 1970s, every bike frame was lugged steel. Repairable I guess. But starting in the 1980s, Cannondale made their welded aluminum frames, Look and Trek made lugged carbon frames, Alan and Vitus made lugged aluminum frames. None of these were repairable. Then in the 1990s steel frames were TIG welded, not lugged and brazed. From the 1980s onwards, no bike frames have been repaired when damaged. Just like no one repairs forks or handlebars or rims or cranks. Why not? You could weld all of those back together and repair them.

With cars and houses, we repair those things. But clothes and shoes, we no longer repair those things. Once we did. But not now. My Mom can and does repair some of my clothes that I rip. But most folks don't have Moms who can sew. And wearing ripped clothes is fashionable I think. My Wrangler jeans are $19 for a brand new pair at WalMart. If my Mom could not patch my torn jeans, would it make sense to hire someone to do it? No. The soles on my sneakers eventually wear out. I suspect a cobbler could glue on a new sole. But I can buy new shoes for $50 or less. Does it make sense to repair shoes? For several hundred dollar dress shoes with leather soles, yes. But for most shoes, no. There have been a few threads on this forum about replacing chainrings and people have said you can buy a whole new crankset with new rings for less than you can buy replacement chainrings. Does it make sense to spend more for rings only or just spend less and buy a whole new crankset.
I had a nice Cyclops track frame I built up. When the frame was damaged I wanted to get it repaired but the repair would have cost more than a new frame would have. Ditto for Campagnolo components. You could by parts to repair them with but often the cost of the parts was almost as much as the new component.


This is why I always signed up for adult-ed metal shop if I needed to repair a steel frame. I got access to a nice oxyacetylene set-up, brazing tips, flux, brass, files, etc., etc. Then I'd do a rattle-can paint job or go to a local powder-coater that did production work for Specialized. It was relatively economical. No such option with CF or Aluminum, but those bikes have warranties. I just get new frames if they break -- assuming I didn't do the breaking. My son still has my Cannondale CAAD 9 which is the twice removed replacement for a Cannondale 2.8 I bought in 1992.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 3/6/21 7:37 am, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 11:06:15 AM UTC-5,
wrote:
Bikes are now expected to be so light that a damaged frame is a
throw away.

Its been 50 years since bike frames were considered repairable. Up
through the 1970s, every bike frame was lugged steel. Repairable I
guess. But starting in the 1980s, Cannondale made their welded
aluminum frames, Look and Trek made lugged carbon frames, Alan and
Vitus made lugged aluminum frames. None of these were repairable.
Then in the 1990s steel frames were TIG welded, not lugged and
brazed. From the 1980s onwards, no bike frames have been repaired
when damaged. Just like no one repairs forks or handlebars or rims
or cranks. Why not? You could weld all of those back together and
repair them.

I do not agree that frames have not been considered repairable for 50 years.

A steel frame can generally be repaired regardless of whether it is
lugged, fillet brazed or TIG welded. My own TIG welded steel frame was
damaged by something I ran over at night that flicked up and put a large
dent in the underside of the down tube. The frame builder said he would
probably pull the dent out, and if that didn't work out he'd replace the
tube.

I cracked an aluminium frame and the (local) manufacturer repaired it &
resprayed it free of charge.

A friend runs a business repairing CF frame damage.

Of course in all cases the reliability and economy of a repair depends
on the level of damage etc, but it's not fair to say frames are not
considered repairable. Maybe not by the average bike shop that now
sells only new bikes and swaps out worn components, but quite possible
if you find the right person or business.

There have been a few threads
on this forum about replacing chainrings and people have said you can
buy a whole new crankset with new rings for less than you can buy
replacement chainrings. Does it make sense to spend more for rings
only or just spend less and buy a whole new crankset.


That surely depends on the brand and model of cranks and chainrings.

--
JS

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 6:30:22 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 3:28:25 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 5:37:08 p.m. UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 11:06:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Bikes are now expected to be so light that a damaged frame is a throw away.
Its been 50 years since bike frames were considered repairable. Up through the 1970s, every bike frame was lugged steel. Repairable I guess. But starting in the 1980s, Cannondale made their welded aluminum frames, Look and Trek made lugged carbon frames, Alan and Vitus made lugged aluminum frames. None of these were repairable. Then in the 1990s steel frames were TIG welded, not lugged and brazed. From the 1980s onwards, no bike frames have been repaired when damaged. Just like no one repairs forks or handlebars or rims or cranks. Why not? You could weld all of those back together and repair them.

With cars and houses, we repair those things. But clothes and shoes, we no longer repair those things. Once we did. But not now. My Mom can and does repair some of my clothes that I rip. But most folks don't have Moms who can sew. And wearing ripped clothes is fashionable I think. My Wrangler jeans are $19 for a brand new pair at WalMart. If my Mom could not patch my torn jeans, would it make sense to hire someone to do it? No. The soles on my sneakers eventually wear out. I suspect a cobbler could glue on a new sole. But I can buy new shoes for $50 or less. Does it make sense to repair shoes? For several hundred dollar dress shoes with leather soles, yes. But for most shoes, no. There have been a few threads on this forum about replacing chainrings and people have said you can buy a whole new crankset with new rings for less than you can buy replacement chainrings. Does it make sense to spend more for rings only or just spend less and buy a whole new crankset.
I had a nice Cyclops track frame I built up. When the frame was damaged I wanted to get it repaired but the repair would have cost more than a new frame would have. Ditto for Campagnolo components. You could by parts to repair them with but often the cost of the parts was almost as much as the new component.

This is why I always signed up for adult-ed metal shop if I needed to repair a steel frame. I got access to a nice oxyacetylene set-up, brazing tips, flux, brass, files, etc., etc. Then I'd do a rattle-can paint job or go to a local powder-coater that did production work for Specialized. It was relatively economical. No such option with CF or Aluminum, but those bikes have warranties. I just get new frames if they break -- assuming I didn't do the breaking. My son still has my Cannondale CAAD 9 which is the twice removed replacement for a Cannondale 2.8 I bought in 1992.

I have been really impressed with a combination of powder coating and rattle can detailing. I repaired a Pinarello that I was hit on by some jerk woman and it was better than new.

On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 07:22:02 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 6:30:22 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 3:28:25 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 5:37:08 p.m. UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 11:06:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Bikes are now expected to be so light that a damaged frame is a throw away.
Its been 50 years since bike frames were considered repairable. Up through the 1970s, every bike frame was lugged steel. Repairable I guess. But starting in the 1980s, Cannondale made their welded aluminum frames, Look and Trek made lugged carbon frames, Alan and Vitus made lugged aluminum frames. None of these were repairable. Then in the 1990s steel frames were TIG welded, not lugged and brazed. From the 1980s onwards, no bike frames have been repaired when damaged. Just like no one repairs forks or handlebars or rims or cranks. Why not? You could weld all of those back together and repair them.

With cars and houses, we repair those things. But clothes and shoes, we no longer repair those things. Once we did. But not now. My Mom can and does repair some of my clothes that I rip. But most folks don't have Moms who can sew. And wearing ripped clothes is fashionable I think. My Wrangler jeans are $19 for a brand new pair at WalMart. If my Mom could not patch my torn jeans, would it make sense to hire someone to do it? No. The soles on my sneakers eventually wear out. I suspect a cobbler could glue on a new sole. But I can buy new shoes for $50 or less. Does it make sense to repair shoes? For several hundred dollar dress shoes with leather soles, yes. But for most shoes, no. There have been a few threads on this forum about replacing chainrings and people have said you can buy a whole new crankset with new rings for less than you can buy replacement chainrings. Does it make sense to spend more for rings only or just spend less and buy a whole new crankset.
I had a nice Cyclops track frame I built up. When the frame was damaged I wanted to get it repaired but the repair would have cost more than a new frame would have. Ditto for Campagnolo components. You could by parts to repair them with but often the cost of the parts was almost as much as the new component.

This is why I always signed up for adult-ed metal shop if I needed to repair a steel frame. I got access to a nice oxyacetylene set-up, brazing tips, flux, brass, files, etc., etc. Then I'd do a rattle-can paint job or go to a local powder-coater that did production work for Specialized. It was relatively economical. No such option with CF or Aluminum, but those bikes have warranties. I just get new frames if they break -- assuming I didn't do the breaking. My son still has my Cannondale CAAD 9 which is the twice removed replacement for a Cannondale 2.8 I bought in 1992.

I have been really impressed with a combination of powder coating and rattle can detailing. I repaired a Pinarello that I was hit on by some jerk woman and it was better than new.

Out of curiosity, what do you pay for powder coating a bicycle frame
and does that include glass bead blasting to get the frame perfectly
clean before coating?
--
Cheers,

John B.