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Climbing: riding on the tops vs riding on the brake hoods



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 27th 08, 10:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
[email protected]
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Posts: 744
Default Climbing: riding on the tops vs riding on the brake hoods

On Jul 27, 6:36 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:
I believe that stem height has gone down in the last decade so that
riding on the hoods now is almost like riding in the drops was before.
In particular, Indurain used to climb in the drops! Also, if you look
at riders in the 70's they did all their racing in the drops, some of
them with their forearms parallel to the ground, elbows bent at 90
degrees. Sean Kelly rode this way and when he was on the handlebar
tops near the stem he was almost sitting up straight.


In the 70s we raced in the drops more for two reasons.

#1: You were closer to the gear shifters. It was a very easy thing to drop
your hand down to the shift lever when you were in the drops.

#2: The brakes weren't nearly as good then as they are now, so you needed a
death grip to slow down, and you just couldn't get that much braking power
from the tops of the hoods.

STI/Ergo shifting changed things dramatically. All of a sudden you were
spending a lot more time out on the hoods, because that's where you shifted
from. So bars with large forward reaches, popular back in the day, caused
problems because you got too stretched out from all that time in the hoods,
and if you shortened the stem to make the reach better, the "tops" of the
bar were too close. It took a bit for people to realize that a shorter
forward reach fixed things nicely.

Stems height can safely be lowered now because we're not spending extended
periods of time in the drops anymore, so we can adopt a more-aggressive
position (in the drops) than we could before.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

wrote in message

...

On Jul 26, 8:52 pm, hizark21 wrote:
Climbing: riding on the tops vs riding on the brake hoods


I have noticed that most climber since the mid 90's tend to climb
seated with their hands on hoods.Personally I prefer climbing on the
tops since this a more relaxed position. Climbing seated on the hoods
put's more strain on my wrists. The one advantage of the hoods is
that you can brake faster. In the end I suppose it's a matter of
climbing style.


I believe that stem height has gone down in the last decade so that
riding on the hoods now is almost like riding in the drops was before.
In particular, Indurain used to climb in the drops! Also, if you look
at riders in the 70's they did all their racing in the drops, some of
them with their forearms parallel to the ground, elbows bent at 90
degrees. Sean Kelly rode this way and when he was on the handlebar
tops near the stem he was almost sitting up straight.


-ilan


OK, but can you explain this video: http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/C...ansitions2.mov
The guy has a pretty large saddle to stem drop, but he's totally
sitting up anyway when on the brake hoods. Stem too short? Bike size
too small? A triathlon bike without aerobars?

-ilan
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  #13  
Old July 27th 08, 11:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
John Forrest Tomlinson
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Posts: 6,564
Default Climbing: riding on the tops vs riding on the brake hoods

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:05:36 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Jul 27, 6:36 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:
I believe that stem height has gone down in the last decade so that
riding on the hoods now is almost like riding in the drops was before.
In particular, Indurain used to climb in the drops! Also, if you look
at riders in the 70's they did all their racing in the drops, some of
them with their forearms parallel to the ground, elbows bent at 90
degrees. Sean Kelly rode this way and when he was on the handlebar
tops near the stem he was almost sitting up straight.


In the 70s we raced in the drops more for two reasons.

#1: You were closer to the gear shifters. It was a very easy thing to drop
your hand down to the shift lever when you were in the drops.

#2: The brakes weren't nearly as good then as they are now, so you needed a
death grip to slow down, and you just couldn't get that much braking power
from the tops of the hoods.

STI/Ergo shifting changed things dramatically. All of a sudden you were
spending a lot more time out on the hoods, because that's where you shifted
from. So bars with large forward reaches, popular back in the day, caused
problems because you got too stretched out from all that time in the hoods,
and if you shortened the stem to make the reach better, the "tops" of the
bar were too close. It took a bit for people to realize that a shorter
forward reach fixed things nicely.

Stems height can safely be lowered now because we're not spending extended
periods of time in the drops anymore, so we can adopt a more-aggressive
position (in the drops) than we could before.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

wrote in message

...

On Jul 26, 8:52 pm, hizark21 wrote:
Climbing: riding on the tops vs riding on the brake hoods


I have noticed that most climber since the mid 90's tend to climb
seated with their hands on hoods.Personally I prefer climbing on the
tops since this a more relaxed position. Climbing seated on the hoods
put's more strain on my wrists. The one advantage of the hoods is
that you can brake faster. In the end I suppose it's a matter of
climbing style.


I believe that stem height has gone down in the last decade so that
riding on the hoods now is almost like riding in the drops was before.
In particular, Indurain used to climb in the drops! Also, if you look
at riders in the 70's they did all their racing in the drops, some of
them with their forearms parallel to the ground, elbows bent at 90
degrees. Sean Kelly rode this way and when he was on the handlebar
tops near the stem he was almost sitting up straight.


-ilan


OK, but can you explain this video:
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/C...ansitions2.mov
The guy has a pretty large saddle to stem drop, but he's totally
sitting up anyway when on the brake hoods. Stem too short? Bike size
too small? A triathlon bike without aerobars?


I won't even bother to look at the video and just assume he's a
masters fattie.

  #14  
Old July 28th 08, 12:42 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Ryan Cousineau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,044
Default Climbing: riding on the tops vs riding on the brake hoods

In article
,
wrote:

OK, but can you explain this video:
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/C...ansitions2.mov
The guy has a pretty large saddle to stem drop, but he's totally
sitting up anyway when on the brake hoods. Stem too short? Bike size
too small? A triathlon bike without aerobars?


Dumbass:

You're seriously asking us to explain triathlete bike fit issues?

Nobody can.

Pull a stunt like this again and I killfile you,

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
  #15  
Old July 28th 08, 01:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 744
Default Climbing: riding on the tops vs riding on the brake hoods

On Jul 28, 1:42 am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In article
,

wrote:
OK, but can you explain this video:
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/C...ansitions2.mov
The guy has a pretty large saddle to stem drop, but he's totally
sitting up anyway when on the brake hoods. Stem too short? Bike size
too small? A triathlon bike without aerobars?


Dumbass:

You're seriously asking us to explain triathlete bike fit issues?

Nobody can.

Pull a stunt like this again and I killfile you,

--
Ryan Cousineau /
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."


Just thought it would be a nice change of pace after the impeccable
Tour riders. Speaking of riding on the tops, the worst riding I've
seen in a long time (the guy on the track bike): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjjfa1xpSg4

-ilan
  #16  
Old July 28th 08, 02:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
hizark21
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 229
Default Climbing: riding on the tops vs riding on the brake hoods

Riding on the flats is a different issue since one is usually
traveling at a higher rate of speed. So the need for speed control is
greater to avoid obstacles.


On Jul 27, 4:42*pm, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In article
,

wrote:
OK, but can you explain this video:
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/C...ansitions2.mov
The guy has a pretty large saddle to stem drop, but he's totally
sitting up anyway when on the brake hoods. Stem too short? Bike size
too small? A triathlon bike without aerobars?


Dumbass:

You're seriously asking us to explain triathlete bike fit issues?

Nobody can.

Pull a stunt like this again and I killfile you,

--
Ryan Cousineau /
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."


  #17  
Old July 28th 08, 04:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Scott
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,859
Default Climbing: riding on the tops vs riding on the brake hoods

On Jul 27, 3:05*pm, wrote:
On Jul 27, 6:36 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:





I believe that stem height has gone down in the last decade so that
riding on the hoods now is almost like riding in the drops was before..
In particular, Indurain used to climb in the drops! Also, if you look
at riders in the 70's they did all their racing in the drops, some of
them with their forearms parallel to the ground, elbows bent at 90
degrees. Sean Kelly rode this way and when he was on the handlebar
tops near the stem he was almost sitting up straight.


In the 70s we raced in the drops more for two reasons.


#1: You were closer to the gear shifters. It was a very easy thing to drop
your hand down to the shift lever when you were in the drops.


#2: The brakes weren't nearly as good then as they are now, so you needed a
death grip to slow down, and you just couldn't get that much braking power
from the tops of the hoods.


STI/Ergo *shifting changed things dramatically. All of a sudden you were
spending a lot more time out on the hoods, because that's where you shifted
from. So bars with large forward reaches, popular back in the day, caused
problems because you got too stretched out from all that time in the hoods,
and if you shortened the stem to make the reach better, the "tops" of the
bar were too close. It took a bit for people to realize that a shorter
forward reach fixed things nicely.


Stems height can safely be lowered now because we're not spending extended
periods of time in the drops anymore, so we can adopt a more-aggressive
position (in the drops) than we could before.


--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


wrote in message


...


On Jul 26, 8:52 pm, hizark21 wrote:
Climbing: riding on the tops vs riding on the brake hoods


I have noticed that most climber since the mid 90's tend to climb
seated with their hands on hoods.Personally I prefer climbing on the
tops since this a more relaxed position. Climbing seated on the hoods
put's more strain on my wrists. *The one advantage of the hoods is
that you can brake faster. In the end I suppose it's a matter of
climbing style.


I believe that stem height has gone down in the last decade so that
riding on the hoods now is almost like riding in the drops was before..
In particular, Indurain used to climb in the drops! Also, if you look
at riders in the 70's they did all their racing in the drops, some of
them with their forearms parallel to the ground, elbows bent at 90
degrees. Sean Kelly rode this way and when he was on the handlebar
tops near the stem he was almost sitting up straight.


-ilan


OK, but can you explain this video:http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/C...ansitions2.mov
The guy has a pretty large saddle to stem drop, but he's totally
sitting up anyway when on the brake hoods. Stem too short? Bike size
too small? A triathlon bike without aerobars?

-ilan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


The saddle is very far forward and the stem is pretty short, ala TT or
Tri setup. Mount the aero bars and have the rider drop down on his
forearms, and his torso will be almost level.
  #18  
Old July 28th 08, 05:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Ryan Cousineau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,044
Default Climbing: riding on the tops vs riding on the brake hoods

In article
,
wrote:

On Jul 28, 1:42 am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In article
,

wrote:
OK, but can you explain this video:
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/C...ansitions2.mov
The guy has a pretty large saddle to stem drop, but he's totally
sitting up anyway when on the brake hoods. Stem too short? Bike size
too small? A triathlon bike without aerobars?


Dumbass:

You're seriously asking us to explain triathlete bike fit issues?

Nobody can.

Pull a stunt like this again and I killfile you,


Just thought it would be a nice change of pace after the impeccable
Tour riders. Speaking of riding on the tops, the worst riding I've
seen in a long time (the guy on the track bike):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjjfa1xpSg4

-ilan


You're still talking about it! AHHHHH!

BTW, for anyone not up on the joke, ilan just linked to one of the more
famous NY alleycat videos.

I think I need a drink,

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
  #19  
Old July 28th 08, 08:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Tuschinski
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 66
Default Climbing: riding on the tops vs riding on the brake hoods

On 26 jul, 20:52, hizark21 wrote:
Climbing: riding on the tops vs riding on the brake hoods

I have noticed that most climber since the mid 90's tend to climb
seated with their hands on hoods.Personally I prefer climbing on the
tops since this a more relaxed position. Climbing seated on the hoods
put's more strain on my wrists. *The one advantage of the hoods is
that you can brake faster. In the end I suppose it's a matter of
climbing style.


I am flabbergasted by all answers in this thread. The real reason:

Air resistance is still a very big component (especially with current
climb speeds)! It is why wheel-sucking works so well on climbs. And it
is also why you better can use aero wheel than ultra light climbing
wheels if you want to win. Of course; pros use ultra-light aero wheels
^^

A reason against the aero wheels is more in the descent, where
handling of high carbon wheels can be spotty: Braking is compromised,
esp when wet and ascents often have unexpected crosswinds wich might
affected steering of a higher rimmed wheel. Also, the rougher ride
might be tiring if you ride over 5-6 hours. Although I would assume
pros can handle that last issue^^

For mere mortals hoods and tops is less of an issue due to our low
riding speed.

- Before anyone asks: This is why "A la danseuse" died: it's not
aerodynamic and with the bigger rear sprockets/higher wattage pros can
now reach 90+ rpm when sitting in the saddle. In the 70ies-80ies the
climbing rpm was a lower, wich forced them to "dance" a lot to power
the big gears. Indurain was afaik the first influential rider really
changing climbing by using higher RPM's and an aero climbing style,
though it was probably an evolutionary change, spurred by ergo-
research.
  #20  
Old July 29th 08, 02:44 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
hizark21
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 229
Default Climbing: riding on the tops vs riding on the brake hoods

On Jul 28, 12:16*am, Tuschinski wrote:
On 26 jul, 20:52, hizark21 wrote:

Climbing: riding on the tops vs riding on the brake hoods


I have noticed that most climber since the mid 90's tend to climb
seated with their hands on hoods.Personally I prefer climbing on the
tops since this a more relaxed position. Climbing seated on the hoods
put's more strain on my wrists. *The one advantage of the hoods is
that you can brake faster. In the end I suppose it's a matter of
climbing style.


Aero wheels are probably marginally beneficial in longer mountain
stages. The Discovery team was using aero wheels on the mountain
stages. I have not seen any studies to verify this however.

Climbing is really more a matter of pacing than wheel sucking.

I am flabbergasted by all answers in this thread. The real reason:

Air resistance is still a very big component (especially with current
climb speeds)! It is why wheel-sucking works so well on climbs. And it
is also why you better can use aero wheel than ultra light climbing
wheels if you want to win. Of course; pros use ultra-light aero wheels
^^

A reason against the aero wheels is more in the descent, where
handling of high carbon wheels can be spotty: Braking is compromised,
esp when wet and ascents often have unexpected crosswinds wich might
affected steering of a higher rimmed wheel. Also, the rougher ride
might be tiring if you ride over 5-6 hours. Although I would assume
pros can handle that last issue^^

For mere mortals hoods and tops is less of an issue due to our low
riding speed.

- Before anyone asks: This is why "A la danseuse" died: it's not
aerodynamic and with the bigger rear sprockets/higher wattage pros can
now reach 90+ rpm when sitting in the saddle. In the 70ies-80ies the
climbing rpm was a lower, wich forced them to "dance" a lot to power
the big gears. *Indurain was afaik the first influential rider really
changing climbing by using higher RPM's and an aero climbing style,
though it was probably an evolutionary change, spurred by ergo-
research.


 




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