Torsional stiffness, example Klein

Jimbo said of Klein that "they not only figured out the torsional
stiffness thing, but actually acted on it. they deserve medals for
that."

Can you give us some references, preferably with pics, and maybe you
want to spin out a short par so we know to look for precisely what
you're referring to.

Fangs,

Andre Jute
Curiosity never killed the cat!

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...
Jimbo said of Klein that "they not only figured out the torsional
stiffness thing, but actually acted on it. they deserve medals for
that."

Can you give us some references, preferably with pics, and maybe you
want to spin out a short par so we know to look for precisely what
you're referring to.

Big thin tubes. Cannondale nicked the idea, and I believe Klein sued them.
Compare early Al frames, eg Alan, which have tubes of similar diameter to
steel bikes, to modern stuff - the Alans were floppy as anything, but we all
know that modern Al-framed bikes tend to be stiff.

Andre Jute wrote:

Jimbo said of Klein that "they not only figured out the torsional
stiffness thing, but actually acted on it. *they deserve medals for
that."

Can you give us some references, preferably with pics, and maybe you
want to spin out a short par so we know to look for precisely what
you're referring to.

Gary Klein is often credited as being the first to offer a commercial
big-tube aluminum bike. As far as I can tell, Harlan Meyers of Hi-E
beat him to it by a span of years, having brought his frame to market
in 1972, a year before Klein claims to have conceived the idea while
in college.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...geViewsIndex=1

Fat tubes are torsionally much stiffer than skinny ones. This
accounts for the relative lack of BB sway in fat-tubed aluminum frames
versus traditional steel ones. The problem "jim beam" has is in
believing it matters that much. If one prefers the feel of a
torsionally stiff frame, a very fat-tubed and not-too-light aluminum
frame may be the most cost- and weight-effective way to attain that
end. But many of us either don't care or prefer more springiness in
our frames.

Having become infatuated at one time with the superior stiffness of
big-tube aluminum frames, I now feel more or less agnostic on the
matter. I believe that there is far more difference and more benefit
in a stiff crank and BB spindle, since using these has made various
otherwise inadequate skinny-tubed steel bike frames more than
acceptable for my own use.

Chalo

On Apr 25, 6:35*pm, Chalo wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

Jimbo said of Klein that "they not only figured out the torsional
stiffness thing, but actually acted on it. *they deserve medals for
that."

Can you give us some references, preferably with pics, and maybe you
want to spin out a short par so we know to look for precisely what
you're referring to.

Gary Klein is often credited as being the first to offer a commercial
big-tube aluminum bike. *As far as I can tell, Harlan Meyers of Hi-E
beat him to it by a span of years, having brought his frame to market
in 1972, a year before Klein claims to have conceived the idea while
in college.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...osters/Hi-E/19...

Fat tubes are torsionally much stiffer than skinny ones. *This
accounts for the relative lack of BB sway in fat-tubed aluminum frames
versus traditional steel ones. *The problem "jim beam" has is in
believing it matters that much. *If one prefers the feel of a
torsionally stiff frame, a very fat-tubed and not-too-light aluminum
frame may be the most cost- and weight-effective way to attain that
end. *But many of us either don't care or prefer more springiness in
our frames.

Having become infatuated at one time with the superior stiffness of
big-tube aluminum frames, I now feel more or less agnostic on the
matter. *I believe that there is far more difference and more benefit
in a stiff crank and BB spindle, since using these has made various
otherwise inadequate skinny-tubed steel bike frames more than
acceptable for my own use.

Chalo

Didn't Sheldon once (or more often) mention that his wife Harriet had
built a fat-tube Al bike herself while attending college with Gary
Klein?

On Apr 25, 7:08*pm, Hank Wirtz wrote:

Didn't Sheldon once (or more often) mention that his wife Harriet had
built a fat-tube Al bike herself while attending college with Gary
Klein?

Yes.
http://tinyurl.com/cey646

Tom Ace

Chalo wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Jimbo said of Klein that "they not only figured out the torsional
stiffness thing, but actually acted on it. �they deserve medals for
that."

Can you give us some references, preferably with pics, and maybe you
want to spin out a short par so we know to look for precisely what
you're referring to.

Gary Klein is often credited as being the first to offer a commercial
big-tube aluminum bike. As far as I can tell, Harlan Meyers of Hi-E
beat him to it by a span of years, having brought his frame to market
in 1972, a year before Klein claims to have conceived the idea while
in college.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...geViewsIndex=1


chalo, if you want to be an asshole, you can just sit there and bleat
about big tube and increased torsional stiffness being freakin' obvious
to anyone that's ever stayed awake in class. regardless, klein had the
balls to pick up the ball and run with it. and he got it over the line.
that's a worthy achievement way beyond anything your dumb ass has done.


Fat tubes are torsionally much stiffer than skinny ones. This
accounts for the relative lack of BB sway in fat-tubed aluminum frames
versus traditional steel ones. The problem "jim beam" has is in
believing it matters that much.

this is not a matter of faith, it's engineering. sorry that's beyond
you, but hey, you're not an engineer.


If one prefers the feel of a
torsionally stiff frame, a very fat-tubed and not-too-light aluminum
frame may be the most cost- and weight-effective way to attain that
end. But many of us either don't care or prefer more springiness in
our frames.

that's because you're just a fred.



Having become infatuated at one time with the superior stiffness of
big-tube aluminum frames, I now feel more or less agnostic on the
matter. I believe that there is far more difference and more benefit
in a stiff crank and BB spindle, since using these has made various
otherwise inadequate skinny-tubed steel bike frames more than
acceptable for my own use.

"for your own use" indeed!

In article ,
"Clive George" wrote:

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...
Jimbo said of Klein that "they not only figured out the torsional
stiffness thing, but actually acted on it. they deserve medals for
that."

Can you give us some references, preferably with pics, and maybe you
want to spin out a short par so we know to look for precisely what
you're referring to.

Big thin tubes. Cannondale nicked the idea, and I believe Klein sued them.
Compare early Al frames, eg Alan, which have tubes of similar diameter to
steel bikes, to modern stuff - the Alans were floppy as anything, but we all
know that modern Al-framed bikes tend to be stiff.

Just to clarify, Klein lost. Klein was the first to really make a go of
selling them, but several cases of prior art existed, including
(famously in this newsgroup, as Tom Ace noted) the frame built by
Harriet Fell, Sheldon Brown's widow.

Tom Ace found a reference to it in the group archive:
http://tinyurl.com/cey646

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

jim beam wrote:

Chalo wrote:

Gary Klein is often credited as being the first to offer a commercial
big-tube aluminum bike. *As far as I can tell, Harlan Meyers of Hi-E
beat him to it by a span of years, having brought his frame to market
in 1972, a year before Klein claims to have conceived the idea while
in college.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...osters/Hi-E/19...

chalo, if you want to be an asshole, you can just sit there and bleat
about big tube and increased torsional stiffness being freakin' obvious
to anyone that's ever stayed awake in class. *regardless, klein had the
balls to pick up the ball and run with it. *and he got it over the line..

Cannondale "got it over the line", in case you didn't notice. Without
that, Klein would probably have been just a historical footnote, as it
looks like the brand is destined to become within the next few
seasons.

Fat tubes are torsionally much stiffer than skinny ones. *This
accounts for the relative lack of BB sway in fat-tubed aluminum frames
versus traditional steel ones. *The problem "jim beam" has is in
believing it matters that much.

this is not a matter of faith, it's engineering. *sorry that's beyond
you, but hey, you're not an engineer.

If the bike lasts, and it's equally efficient within applicable
tolerances, then it's a matter of taste. Really. Steel bikes are
proven. It's fair to say that aluminum bikes are proven by now, too.
Some prefer the steel ride and some prefer stiff aluminum. My
experience with both doesn't conclusively favor one or the other, but
I have cracked more aluminum frames than steel ones. (Not
particularly lightweight ones, either.)

When I ride a fat tube aluminum bike, I like it. When I ride a
traditional diameter steel bike, I like it. When I ride a fat tube
steel bike, I like it. They feel different, but none seems clearly
better in one way without seeming less good in some other regard. I
have encountered satisfactory and deficient examples of all three.

Having become infatuated at one time with the superior stiffness of
big-tube aluminum frames, I now feel more or less agnostic on the
matter. *I believe that there is far more difference and more benefit
in a stiff crank and BB spindle, since using these has made various
otherwise inadequate skinny-tubed steel bike frames more than
acceptable for my own use.

"for your own use" indeed!

Hey, I'm harder on them than you or Lance. That's why y'all can get
by with plastic bikes.

Chalo

Chalo wrote:
jim beam wrote:
Chalo wrote:
Gary Klein is often credited as being the first to offer a commercial
big-tube aluminum bike. �As far as I can tell, Harlan Meyers of Hi-E
beat him to it by a span of years, having brought his frame to market
in 1972, a year before Klein claims to have conceived the idea while
in college.
http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...osters/Hi-E/19...
chalo, if you want to be an asshole, you can just sit there and bleat
about big tube and increased torsional stiffness being freakin' obvious
to anyone that's ever stayed awake in class. �regardless, klein had the
balls to pick up the ball and run with it. �and he got it over the line.

Cannondale "got it over the line", in case you didn't notice. Without
that, Klein would probably have been just a historical footnote, as it
looks like the brand is destined to become within the next few
seasons.

er, apparently it has escaped your notice that cannondale took up where
klein left off. klein is the one that got this stuff mainstream.



Fat tubes are torsionally much stiffer than skinny ones. �This
accounts for the relative lack of BB sway in fat-tubed aluminum frames
versus traditional steel ones. �The problem "jim beam" has is in
believing it matters that much.
this is not a matter of faith, it's engineering. �sorry that's beyond
you, but hey, you're not an engineer.

If the bike lasts, and it's equally efficient within applicable
tolerances, then it's a matter of taste. Really.

why don't you and andre just **** off together and create homoerotic
"art"? [you're an "artist" aren't you chalo?] because all you're
doing, without any spark of originality or independent thinking [and
/definitely/ no attempt to educate yourself] is simply humping andre's
completely engineering-free bull****.


Steel bikes are
proven.

yeah! proven heavy. proven fatigue vulnerable. proven corrodable.
and in many cases, proven ridiculously over-priced given the materials
and ease of fabrication. surley "lht"??? that thing costs maybe $50
dockside l.a., tops. and dumb-asses like you pay $400 for it. utterly
STOOOOPID.


It's fair to say that aluminum bikes are proven by now, too.
Some prefer the steel ride and some prefer stiff aluminum. My
experience with both doesn't conclusively favor one or the other, but
I have cracked more aluminum frames than steel ones. (Not
particularly lightweight ones, either.)

blah blah blah.



When I ride a fat tube aluminum bike, I like it. When I ride a
traditional diameter steel bike, I like it. When I ride a fat tube
steel bike, I like it. They feel different, but none seems clearly
better in one way without seeming less good in some other regard. I
have encountered satisfactory and deficient examples of all three.

see above.



Having become infatuated at one time with the superior stiffness of
big-tube aluminum frames, I now feel more or less agnostic on the
matter. �I believe that there is far more difference and more benefit
in a stiff crank and BB spindle, since using these has made various
otherwise inadequate skinny-tubed steel bike frames more than
acceptable for my own use.
"for your own use" indeed!

Hey, I'm harder on them than you or Lance. That's why y'all can get
by with plastic bikes.

actually, /you/ ride plastic materials chalo - steel and aluminum are
both ductile and thus plastically deform. but you're just too freakin'
dumb to learn to use the correct terminology.

On Apr 25, 10:35*pm, Ryan Cousineau wrote:

Big thin tubes. Cannondale nicked the idea, and I believe Klein sued them.
Compare early Al frames, eg Alan, which have tubes of similar diameter to
steel bikes, to modern stuff - the Alans were floppy as anything, but we all
know that modern Al-framed bikes tend to be stiff.

Just to clarify, Klein lost. Klein was the first to really make a go of
selling them, but several cases of prior art existed, including
(famously in this newsgroup, as Tom Ace noted) the frame built by
Harriet Fell, Sheldon Brown's widow.

Tom Ace found a reference to it in the group archive:http://tinyurl.com/cey646

Patent:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=9sU...J&dq=4,500,103

Lawsuit (appeal):
http://openjurist.org/884/f2d/1399/k...le-corporation