A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Let the Laughing Begin



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old September 5th 17, 05:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,586
Default Let the Laughing Begin

On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 07:04:03 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 9:25:51 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 4 Sep 2017 14:01:39 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The professional is the one that's accurate and the cheaper one that was both showing the wrong pressure and probably letting pressure bleed off through the cheaper filler nozzle.


Here's my bicycle pump tester:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/misc/slides/Bicycle%20pump%20pressure%20gauge.html
I scribbled a little about how it's used in a previous postings:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.bicycles.tech/YsqvNggfDDM/CoySfXtGAQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.bicycles.tech/YsqvNggfDDM/XeXJLe5kAQAJ

For a leakdown test, I attach a small pressure vessel to one port, and
pump up the pressure with a bicycle pump attached to the other port.
Then, I watch the pump gauge to see if it remains stable. If the test
gauge leaks, I paint the plumbing with bubble mix looking for the
source of the air leaks. If the gauge itself is suspect, I take it
apart and check the mechanism for leaks.


Well, that certainly seems a better method than getting a good pump to begin with.


Quantity is my substitute for quality. When I tested my collection of
floor and frame pumps, I found a few defective pumps and a few
inaccurate gauges. I don't recall the numbers, but one gauge read 8
lbs low for a 60 lb tire pressure. Cleaning the crud out of the
mechanism most fixed that. I don't think I own anything that might
resemble a "good pump".

This was from 3 years ago:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/misc/slides/bicycle-pumps.html
I now have about twice as many frame pumps. I also have 4 working
floor pumps, 2 sick floor pumps, 1 worthless foot pump, and maybe a
dozen assorted pencil, analog, and digital gauges. The various cheap
automotive type digital gauges seem to be the most consistent and
accurate, but also have mechanical problem, such as fitting only
Schrader valves or a leaky fit. Maybe, some day I'll buy a "good
pump" and recycle all the junk pumps. A proper dead weight pressure
gauge tester/calibrator is not in my budget (although I could probably
build one).

Incidentally, when I go for rides these daze, I generally throw the
bicycle into my Subaru and drive to where I want to ride. Before
leaving, I usually top off my leaky tires with some air from a cheap
12V automotive air tire pump. The one I have has an automatic shutoff
when it reaches a set pressure. I just set the dial, start the air
compressor, and I'm ready to ride when it's done. The problem is that
it's horribly inaccurate. The dial settings and built in pressure
gauge don't agree and are rather inaccurate. However, they are fairly
consistent, so I just calibrated the readings and scribbled a
calibration chart. After that, frame and floor pumps seem so
uncivilized.

At one time, I proposed a portable bicycle tire inflator consisting of
something like the automotive automatic shutoff compressor that I'm
using, with an added LiIon rechargeable battery. Or maybe powered
instead by a model airplane gasoline engine. I think I can make it
small enough to be fairly flat and pocket size. A little marketing
research indicated that nobody I asked would pay money for such a
thing but might consider building one from a kit. Very strange but I
decided that it was too risky and let the idea die a natural death.



--
Jeff Liebermann

150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Ads
  #14  
Old September 6th 17, 07:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,641
Default Let the Laughing Begin

On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 07:04:41 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 7:32:25 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Sep 2017 13:00:34 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Yesterday I went on a long enough ride and the weather report turned out to be incorrect enough that I was close to heat prostration near the end.

I hit a stone in the road that was invisible and it gave me a flat. As I was trying to figure out how to make the particular CO2 filler in that seat pack to work I punctured the canister and lost one of my two CO2 tubes.

Opening the front tire to remove the inner tube and replace it with the new tube a black guy who looked nearly homeless came by and said that he had a patch kit if I needed it. I thanked him but without a pump I couldn't find any leaks to patch.

When the front tube came out it was a Performance butyl tube. They were available in a 30, a 40 and a 60 mm stem length. I have bought the latex tubes because they were available in 51 mm stems. The back (which was losing air about the same as the front) is latex.

So my tires not losing air plainly isn't because of the material of the tubes.

My suspicion is the pump meter. I bought a new Silca professional pump from Andrew and it has a new (and probably much better) pressure gauge on it. This allows me to fill the tire up properly and to test the pressure more accurately than most pumps.

So it probably is pump and not inner tube material related.

Now don't say I lacked the courage to publicly correct myself when I think I was wrong. How many of you can say the same thing - John and Frank?



Actually I don't remember ever saying that you failed to correct
yourself. If memory serves what I've said was that "you are wrong".


And as usual you didn't know what you were talking about.


As someone wrote, "Reality is anything you want it to be. Just close
your eyes and let your imagination run wild."
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #15  
Old September 6th 17, 07:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,641
Default Let the Laughing Begin

On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 09:52:07 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 07:04:03 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 9:25:51 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 4 Sep 2017 14:01:39 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The professional is the one that's accurate and the cheaper one that was both showing the wrong pressure and probably letting pressure bleed off through the cheaper filler nozzle.

Here's my bicycle pump tester:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/misc/slides/Bicycle%20pump%20pressure%20gauge.html
I scribbled a little about how it's used in a previous postings:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.bicycles.tech/YsqvNggfDDM/CoySfXtGAQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.bicycles.tech/YsqvNggfDDM/XeXJLe5kAQAJ

For a leakdown test, I attach a small pressure vessel to one port, and
pump up the pressure with a bicycle pump attached to the other port.
Then, I watch the pump gauge to see if it remains stable. If the test
gauge leaks, I paint the plumbing with bubble mix looking for the
source of the air leaks. If the gauge itself is suspect, I take it
apart and check the mechanism for leaks.


Well, that certainly seems a better method than getting a good pump to begin with.


Quantity is my substitute for quality. When I tested my collection of
floor and frame pumps, I found a few defective pumps and a few
inaccurate gauges. I don't recall the numbers, but one gauge read 8
lbs low for a 60 lb tire pressure. Cleaning the crud out of the
mechanism most fixed that. I don't think I own anything that might
resemble a "good pump".

This was from 3 years ago:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/misc/slides/bicycle-pumps.html
I now have about twice as many frame pumps. I also have 4 working
floor pumps, 2 sick floor pumps, 1 worthless foot pump, and maybe a
dozen assorted pencil, analog, and digital gauges. The various cheap
automotive type digital gauges seem to be the most consistent and
accurate, but also have mechanical problem, such as fitting only
Schrader valves or a leaky fit. Maybe, some day I'll buy a "good
pump" and recycle all the junk pumps. A proper dead weight pressure
gauge tester/calibrator is not in my budget (although I could probably
build one).

Incidentally, when I go for rides these daze, I generally throw the
bicycle into my Subaru and drive to where I want to ride. Before
leaving, I usually top off my leaky tires with some air from a cheap
12V automotive air tire pump. The one I have has an automatic shutoff
when it reaches a set pressure. I just set the dial, start the air
compressor, and I'm ready to ride when it's done. The problem is that
it's horribly inaccurate. The dial settings and built in pressure
gauge don't agree and are rather inaccurate. However, they are fairly
consistent, so I just calibrated the readings and scribbled a
calibration chart. After that, frame and floor pumps seem so
uncivilized.

At one time, I proposed a portable bicycle tire inflator consisting of
something like the automotive automatic shutoff compressor that I'm
using, with an added LiIon rechargeable battery. Or maybe powered
instead by a model airplane gasoline engine. I think I can make it
small enough to be fairly flat and pocket size. A little marketing
research indicated that nobody I asked would pay money for such a
thing but might consider building one from a kit. Very strange but I
decided that it was too risky and let the idea die a natural death.


I've always believed that a "good pump" was one with which one could
inflate the desired tire to the desired pressure :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #16  
Old September 6th 17, 04:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,586
Default Let the Laughing Begin

On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 13:30:25 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 09:52:07 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
At one time, I proposed a portable bicycle tire inflator consisting of
something like the automotive automatic shutoff compressor that I'm
using, with an added LiIon rechargeable battery. Or maybe powered
instead by a model airplane gasoline engine. I think I can make it
small enough to be fairly flat and pocket size. A little marketing
research indicated that nobody I asked would pay money for such a
thing but might consider building one from a kit. Very strange but I
decided that it was too risky and let the idea die a natural death.


I've always believed that a "good pump" was one with which one could
inflate the desired tire to the desired pressure :-)


Sigh. Inflate the desired tire at what temperature, with how much
effort, how quickly, to what accuracy, how big a tire, etc? What
works well for a road bicycle, might not be so good inflating an
automobile tire. What works in the shop, may not be so good during a
ride. Of course, there are specialized bicycle pumps optimized for
these and other purposes and conditions. My idea of a "good pump" is
one that will do an adequate job of inflating everything from a high
pressure racing tire (multistage pump), to an air mattress (large
volume piston or vane pump). It might look a bit weird, have
capabilities I might rarely use, probably expensive, but will work for
anything that needs inflation.

Here's one application for an air pump with which I'm currently
working:
https://www.amazon.com/Carburetor-detector-Replaces-Tillotson-243-504/dp/B06Y542R9S
Yes, it's an air pump. It's used to apply pressure to the carburetor
fuel inlet on a 2 stroke engine (chain saw) to determine if the needle
valve is working properly and not leaking. Apply pressure and it
should open the needle valve at about 15 psi. Let it bleed down, and
it should close again at 5 psi. Pressurized to 10 psi and dunk the
carburetor into a bowl of water while looking for leaks (air bubbles).
A "good pump" should be able to do this as well.

The problem here is that this is what I want, not what the GUM (great
unwashed masses) are will to buy. That makes it a "good pump" but
only for me. You may have other ideas.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #17  
Old September 6th 17, 07:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,338
Default Let the Laughing Begin

On Tuesday, September 5, 2017 at 9:52:10 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 07:04:03 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 9:25:51 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 4 Sep 2017 14:01:39 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The professional is the one that's accurate and the cheaper one that was both showing the wrong pressure and probably letting pressure bleed off through the cheaper filler nozzle.

Here's my bicycle pump tester:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/misc/slides/Bicycle%20pump%20pressure%20gauge.html
I scribbled a little about how it's used in a previous postings:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.bicycles.tech/YsqvNggfDDM/CoySfXtGAQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.bicycles.tech/YsqvNggfDDM/XeXJLe5kAQAJ

For a leakdown test, I attach a small pressure vessel to one port, and
pump up the pressure with a bicycle pump attached to the other port.
Then, I watch the pump gauge to see if it remains stable. If the test
gauge leaks, I paint the plumbing with bubble mix looking for the
source of the air leaks. If the gauge itself is suspect, I take it
apart and check the mechanism for leaks.


Well, that certainly seems a better method than getting a good pump to begin with.


Quantity is my substitute for quality. When I tested my collection of
floor and frame pumps, I found a few defective pumps and a few
inaccurate gauges. I don't recall the numbers, but one gauge read 8
lbs low for a 60 lb tire pressure. Cleaning the crud out of the
mechanism most fixed that. I don't think I own anything that might
resemble a "good pump".

This was from 3 years ago:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/misc/slides/bicycle-pumps.html
I now have about twice as many frame pumps. I also have 4 working
floor pumps, 2 sick floor pumps, 1 worthless foot pump, and maybe a
dozen assorted pencil, analog, and digital gauges. The various cheap
automotive type digital gauges seem to be the most consistent and
accurate, but also have mechanical problem, such as fitting only
Schrader valves or a leaky fit. Maybe, some day I'll buy a "good
pump" and recycle all the junk pumps. A proper dead weight pressure
gauge tester/calibrator is not in my budget (although I could probably
build one).

Incidentally, when I go for rides these daze, I generally throw the
bicycle into my Subaru and drive to where I want to ride. Before
leaving, I usually top off my leaky tires with some air from a cheap
12V automotive air tire pump. The one I have has an automatic shutoff
when it reaches a set pressure. I just set the dial, start the air
compressor, and I'm ready to ride when it's done. The problem is that
it's horribly inaccurate. The dial settings and built in pressure
gauge don't agree and are rather inaccurate. However, they are fairly
consistent, so I just calibrated the readings and scribbled a
calibration chart. After that, frame and floor pumps seem so
uncivilized.

At one time, I proposed a portable bicycle tire inflator consisting of
something like the automotive automatic shutoff compressor that I'm
using, with an added LiIon rechargeable battery. Or maybe powered
instead by a model airplane gasoline engine. I think I can make it
small enough to be fairly flat and pocket size. A little marketing
research indicated that nobody I asked would pay money for such a
thing but might consider building one from a kit. Very strange but I
decided that it was too risky and let the idea die a natural death.



--
Jeff Liebermann

150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


Well, fortunately for us all, the exact pressure that yer tires are at is simply not that problematic. It is simply not like saddle height. If my roadbike tires are at 120 one day and 115 the next and 110 the next, well that's just okay. Below 110 I'll notice and think they feel a little soft and slow. On the mtn bike, I'll pump them up to 55-60, usually, and if they're at 50 or even 45 one day well I'll have a little softer ride that day and yea I'll work just a bit harder uphill, then get a just a bit better grip on the way back down.



  #18  
Old September 6th 17, 07:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,338
Default Let the Laughing Begin


Quantity is my substitute for quality.


So, to know the exact pressure at which his tires are inflated, Tom should own a dozen guages, apply them all, and average the results?


  #19  
Old September 6th 17, 07:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,346
Default Let the Laughing Begin

On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 8:54:56 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 13:30:25 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 09:52:07 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
At one time, I proposed a portable bicycle tire inflator consisting of
something like the automotive automatic shutoff compressor that I'm
using, with an added LiIon rechargeable battery. Or maybe powered
instead by a model airplane gasoline engine. I think I can make it
small enough to be fairly flat and pocket size. A little marketing
research indicated that nobody I asked would pay money for such a
thing but might consider building one from a kit. Very strange but I
decided that it was too risky and let the idea die a natural death.


I've always believed that a "good pump" was one with which one could
inflate the desired tire to the desired pressure :-)


Sigh. Inflate the desired tire at what temperature, with how much
effort, how quickly, to what accuracy, how big a tire, etc? What
works well for a road bicycle, might not be so good inflating an
automobile tire. What works in the shop, may not be so good during a
ride. Of course, there are specialized bicycle pumps optimized for
these and other purposes and conditions. My idea of a "good pump" is
one that will do an adequate job of inflating everything from a high
pressure racing tire (multistage pump), to an air mattress (large
volume piston or vane pump). It might look a bit weird, have
capabilities I might rarely use, probably expensive, but will work for
anything that needs inflation.

Here's one application for an air pump with which I'm currently
working:
https://www.amazon.com/Carburetor-detector-Replaces-Tillotson-243-504/dp/B06Y542R9S
Yes, it's an air pump. It's used to apply pressure to the carburetor
fuel inlet on a 2 stroke engine (chain saw) to determine if the needle
valve is working properly and not leaking. Apply pressure and it
should open the needle valve at about 15 psi. Let it bleed down, and
it should close again at 5 psi. Pressurized to 10 psi and dunk the
carburetor into a bowl of water while looking for leaks (air bubbles).
A "good pump" should be able to do this as well.

The problem here is that this is what I want, not what the GUM (great
unwashed masses) are will to buy. That makes it a "good pump" but
only for me. You may have other ideas.


Absolutely Jeff. MTB tires will not inflate well on my Silca Pro road bike pump. It takes 25 pumps to inflate a 23 to 110.

MTB's definitely need a much higher volume pump and they don't need to get above 80 psi at the highest.
  #20  
Old September 6th 17, 07:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,586
Default Let the Laughing Begin

On Wed, 6 Sep 2017 11:02:12 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
wrote:

Quantity is my substitute for quality.


So, to know the exact pressure at which his tires are
inflated, Tom should own a dozen guages, apply
them all, and average the results?


Sure. The errors tend to random, some high, some low, some large,
some small, etc. When a large number of measurements are averaged,
the result tends to be fairly close to reality. At least that's what
some climate researchers claimed when they averaged the results of
many prehistoric temperature and CO2 proxies, each of which were
suspected of being inaccurate, and produced an average which the was
declared accurate.

Actually, it would be more interesting if we took pressure readings at
various times of the day. If you set your tire pressure to some
number on a cold morning, and then go for a ride in the hot sun, your
tire pressure will increase. Strictly speaking, one needs to be
seated on the bicycle in order to get an accurate measurement or
proper setting. That might be a bit awkward unless you're a
contortionist. It might be instructive (and amusing) to attach a
BlueGoof wireless tire pressure gauge and data logger to a wheel and
watch the variations in pressure as the bicycle bounces down the road
or does aerobatics. I suspect that you'll find large variations,
which should make you wonder why anyone bothers to set the tire
pressure more accurately than hard, firm, mush, soft, and flat.

Math, numbers, formulas, and calculations:
http://www.velonews.com/2017/03/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq-science-tire-pressure-rim-width-heat-buildup_433214
Math hates me.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I was laughing. Michael Press Racing 19 July 7th 09 11:29 PM
lol, he's laughing at Ride-A-Lot..! LIBERATOR Mountain Biking 0 November 17th 06 09:40 AM
They're Laughing At Us! S o r n i General 2 March 15th 05 02:18 AM
Laughing my ass off [email protected] Racing 10 August 18th 04 03:28 AM
Laughing My Ass Off [email protected] Racing 13 August 17th 04 01:38 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2017 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.