NYC cycling update

On 10/6/2017 2:35 PM, wrote:

Drunk driving is an offense that is particularly prone to repetition. According to MADD statistics, "an average drunk driver has driven drunk 80 times before first arrest" and "every day in America, another 27 people die as a result of drunk driving crashes" and "about one-third of all drivers arrested or convicted of drunk driving are repeat offenders." Any individual who is arrested for DUI or DWI has likely, therefore, driven drunk tens of times before, and has an extremely high chance of doing so again.

But this is all a joke and should be demonstrated with sarcasm - right?

The question was: What exactly do you propose should be done about it, Tom?

You provide lots of ranting, but very few realistic answers.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 06 Oct 2017 08:52:58 -0500, AMuzi wrote:


http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3545213

We need sensible regulation, dammit. Drunk driving ought to
be against the law. Anyone piloting a motor vehicle on a
public road should have to pass a skills competence test and
a written statute-based test and then carry a document with
their picture on it. More laws! Yep that oughta do it.

Maybe just enforce the laws that exist :-) After all a $60 fine (I
think you once posted) is not really a deterrent against running over
bicyclists... is it?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 12:25:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/6/2017 2:13 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 11:35:56 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 11:05:40 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 9:50:55 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/6/2017 11:45 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/6/2017 10:26 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/6/2017 9:52 AM, AMuzi wrote:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3545213



We need sensible regulation, dammit. Drunk driving ought
to be against the law. Anyone piloting a motor vehicle
on a public road should have to pass a skills competence
test and a written statute-based test and then carry a
document with their picture on it. More laws! Yep that
oughta do it.

Your sarcasm is noted. But what do you propose? No
requirement for driver's licenses, no limit on blood alcohol
while driving?


Since those great ideas are hardly practiced, back at you.

Our local news regularly notes arrests for 6th, 8th, 12th offense DUI.
We don't have as many illegal aliens (no registration, no license, no
speak English) as they do in SoCal but the trend is clear.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2490337.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-15-times.html

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...307-story.html

The topic seems to have suddenly shifted from drunk drivers to illegal
aliens. Those topics may overlap, but they are not one and the same. The
guy in your article is Hispanic, but I didn't see that he was in the
U.S. illegally.

Yah, he was an illegal -- but he did apologize. http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3494205

He apparently had no prior record and had been in the US for 18 years.. He's a construction worker, and in an interview, he said that he worked directly for Donald Trump. In fact, it was Trump who served him the beer and margaritas and told him to mix it up with some liberals on bikes. The interview was on Felix Jones "Info Battles," the new radical left-wing, ANTIFA YouTube channel. He was supposedly drinking with Trump at Comet Ping Pong and sending nasty Tweets to Hillary.

US citizen white people never drive drunk. FACT! Anyone who is not me, go back to your not-me country!

-- Jay Beattie.

In a March 2011 report titled "Criminal Alien Statistics, Information on Incarcerations, Arrests, and Costs", the Government Accountability Office (GAO) estimated, based on a random sample it had performed, that the criminal aliens it studied had an "average of 7 arrests, 65 percent were arrested at least once for an immigration offense, and about 50 percent were arrested at least once for a drug offense." This means that of the criminal aliens GAO studied, the average alien who had been arrested at least once was arrested seven times; simply put, criminal aliens generally commit other crimes.

Drunk driving is an offense that is particularly prone to repetition. According to MADD statistics, "an average drunk driver has driven drunk 80 times before first arrest" and "every day in America, another 27 people die as a result of drunk driving crashes" and "about one-third of all drivers arrested or convicted of drunk driving are repeat offenders." Any individual who is arrested for DUI or DWI has likely, therefore, driven drunk tens of times before, and has an extremely high chance of doing so again.

But this is all a joke and should be demonstrated with sarcasm - right?

Absolutely -- because the nut-job Chicken Littles are driving me crazy. This is the Deseret News, the mouthpiece of the Mormon Church (but nonetheless a pretty good newspaper): https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...migration.html

You and your zany tin-foil hat crowd go overboard with such vigor and regularity that even fair-minded people like me tune out.

I'm all for reasonable immigration policies and immigration enforcement.. I'm just sick, sick, sick of all the alt-right BS -- which is not only unchristian, it ignores basic economic realities -- as well as other realities.

BTW, the right should scare you, too. Paul Ryan is talking about privatizing Medicare, which means you'll get some paltry stipend to buy a policy that costs five times as much. Your alt-right wish will become a nightmare.

-- Jay Beattie.


We don't disagree fundamentally.

My grandparents all endured a 40 day quarantine, had to
provide a destination address and person responsible for
them plus assurance they would not be a public charge. My
son in law, a licensed engineer, spent 8 years and a heap of
trouble to become naturalized, as did two friends (both
educated professionals). I have sponsored visas for
immigrants through my company and hired others.

That said, there seems to be no lower limit or much of any
limit now for the open borders policy, richly exploited by
various and sundry scum from IRGC to MS13 and so on.

Whatever policy may exist on paper, in practice it's a mess.

Oh, and unreasonably, unfairly, inefficiently and flippantly
random such that hotel maids get deported but dope dealers
and other criminals bring the whole village in.

It seems like ICE is more interested in sending a signal to sanctuary cities -- busting maids and pulling wings off flies for the political fun of it. The hard work of catching drug dealers is not the top priority. It would be nice if we had a policy that actually promoted crime prevention. At least they could sweat the maid to make her rat-out MS13 -- unless she happens to be Filipino or doesn't know MS13 from WD40.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Fri, 6 Oct 2017 12:50:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 10/6/2017 11:45 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/6/2017 10:26 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/6/2017 9:52 AM, AMuzi wrote:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3545213



We need sensible regulation, dammit. Drunk driving ought
to be against the law.Â* Anyone piloting a motor vehicle
on a public road should have to pass a skills competence
test and a written statute-based test and then carry a
document with their picture on it. More laws! Yep that
oughta do it.

Your sarcasm is noted. But what do you propose? No
requirement for driver's licenses, no limit on blood alcohol
while driving?


Since those great ideas are hardly practiced, back at you.

Our local news regularly notes arrests for 6th, 8th, 12th offense DUI.
We don't have as many illegal aliens (no registration, no license, no
speak English) as they do in SoCal but the trend is clear.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2490337.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-15-times.html

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...307-story.html

The topic seems to have suddenly shifted from drunk drivers to illegal
aliens. Those topics may overlap, but they are not one and the same. The
guy in your article is Hispanic, but I didn't see that he was in the
U.S. illegally.

For the record: I'm not in favor of illegal immigration any more than
I'm in favor of drunk driving. But I haven't heard much here about
really practical ways of stopping either.

I'm not impressed by arguments that say things like "Here's a guy who
committed a crime despite a law, so laws do no good." If someone makes
such an argument, I think it's fair to ask them what _should_ be done.

I suggest "just enforce the laws you've got". Years ago people were
actually scared to get arrested for drunken driving as the penalties
handed down were severe. Now, apparently, as I read about "6th, 8th,
12th offense", it is more of a slap on the wrist sort of thing.

Suppose that drunk driving was punished by a minimum sentence of 6
months loss of license for first offence and permanent loss for
second, and driving without a license was a minimum of 6 months
imprisonment for first attempt and one year for second.

Would there be as much crime?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 06 Oct 2017 08:52:58 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3545213

We need sensible regulation, dammit. Drunk driving ought to be against
the law. Anyone piloting a motor vehicle on a public road should have
to pass a skills competence test and a written statute-based test and
then carry a document with their picture on it. More laws! Yep that
oughta do it.

Maybe breathalyser interlocks should be required on all cars as a matter
of course...

On Fri, 06 Oct 2017 09:25:30 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 10/6/2017 9:16 AM, wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 6:52:59 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3545213

We need sensible regulation, dammit. Drunk driving ought to
be against the law. Anyone piloting a motor vehicle on a
public road should have to pass a skills competence test and
a written statute-based test and then carry a document with
their picture on it. More laws! Yep that oughta do it.

I hope that you realize that "sanctuary city" laws are designed to protect felons first and foremost. This is why I believe that any city or state that becomes a "illegal alien sanctuary" should both lose all Federal Funding but the people who vote this in should be charged as criminals and imprisoned.


If you think a sovereign nation ought to have borders,
you're a racist. I learned that from the NYT.

Bzzzzt. Wrong again.

Racist, sexist, homophobic guilty of microaggressions.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 12:13:08 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 11:35:56 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 11:05:40 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 9:50:55 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/6/2017 11:45 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/6/2017 10:26 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/6/2017 9:52 AM, AMuzi wrote:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3545213



We need sensible regulation, dammit. Drunk driving ought
to be against the law.ÂÂ* Anyone piloting a motor vehicle
on a public road should have to pass a skills competence
test and a written statute-based test and then carry a
document with their picture on it. More laws! Yep that
oughta do it.

Your sarcasm is noted. But what do you propose? No
requirement for driver's licenses, no limit on blood alcohol
while driving?


Since those great ideas are hardly practiced, back at you.

Our local news regularly notes arrests for 6th, 8th, 12th offense DUI.
We don't have as many illegal aliens (no registration, no license, no
speak English) as they do in SoCal but the trend is clear.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2490337.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-15-times.html

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...307-story.html

The topic seems to have suddenly shifted from drunk drivers to illegal
aliens. Those topics may overlap, but they are not one and the same.. The
guy in your article is Hispanic, but I didn't see that he was in the
U.S. illegally.

Yah, he was an illegal -- but he did apologize. http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3494205

He apparently had no prior record and had been in the US for 18 years.. He's a construction worker, and in an interview, he said that he worked directly for Donald Trump. In fact, it was Trump who served him the beer and margaritas and told him to mix it up with some liberals on bikes. The interview was on Felix Jones "Info Battles," the new radical left-wing, ANTIFA YouTube channel. He was supposedly drinking with Trump at Comet Ping Pong and sending nasty Tweets to Hillary.

US citizen white people never drive drunk. FACT! Anyone who is not me, go back to your not-me country!

-- Jay Beattie.

In a March 2011 report titled "Criminal Alien Statistics, Information on Incarcerations, Arrests, and Costs", the Government Accountability Office (GAO) estimated, based on a random sample it had performed, that the criminal aliens it studied had an "average of 7 arrests, 65 percent were arrested at least once for an immigration offense, and about 50 percent were arrested at least once for a drug offense." This means that of the criminal aliens GAO studied, the average alien who had been arrested at least once was arrested seven times; simply put, criminal aliens generally commit other crimes.

Drunk driving is an offense that is particularly prone to repetition. According to MADD statistics, "an average drunk driver has driven drunk 80 times before first arrest" and "every day in America, another 27 people die as a result of drunk driving crashes" and "about one-third of all drivers arrested or convicted of drunk driving are repeat offenders." Any individual who is arrested for DUI or DWI has likely, therefore, driven drunk tens of times before, and has an extremely high chance of doing so again.

But this is all a joke and should be demonstrated with sarcasm - right?

Absolutely -- because the nut-job Chicken Littles are driving me crazy. This is the Deseret News, the mouthpiece of the Mormon Church (but nonetheless a pretty good newspaper): https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...migration.html

You and your zany tin-foil hat crowd go overboard with such vigor and regularity that even fair-minded people like me tune out.

I'm all for reasonable immigration policies and immigration enforcement. I'm just sick, sick, sick of all the alt-right BS -- which is not only unchristian, it ignores basic economic realities -- as well as other realities..

BTW, the right should scare you, too. Paul Ryan is talking about privatizing Medicare, which means you'll get some paltry stipend to buy a policy that costs five times as much. Your alt-right wish will become a nightmare.


Didn't it strike a nerve when they said that they didn't know how many illegal vs. legal aliens there were but 17% of Hispanics were responsible for identity theft? Do you suppose legal immigrants are going to steal identities to work?

At what point did it become the government's (Joe Taxpayer who has his own problems) responsibility to supply YOU with healthcare beyond Medicare?

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of someone that is making a healthy living tell the rest of us that we should help our fellow man even if he is here in this country illegally.

On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 12:25:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/6/2017 2:13 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 11:35:56 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 11:05:40 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 9:50:55 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/6/2017 11:45 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/6/2017 10:26 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/6/2017 9:52 AM, AMuzi wrote:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3545213



We need sensible regulation, dammit. Drunk driving ought
to be against the law. Anyone piloting a motor vehicle
on a public road should have to pass a skills competence
test and a written statute-based test and then carry a
document with their picture on it. More laws! Yep that
oughta do it.

Your sarcasm is noted. But what do you propose? No
requirement for driver's licenses, no limit on blood alcohol
while driving?


Since those great ideas are hardly practiced, back at you.

Our local news regularly notes arrests for 6th, 8th, 12th offense DUI.
We don't have as many illegal aliens (no registration, no license, no
speak English) as they do in SoCal but the trend is clear.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2490337.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-15-times.html

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...307-story.html

The topic seems to have suddenly shifted from drunk drivers to illegal
aliens. Those topics may overlap, but they are not one and the same. The
guy in your article is Hispanic, but I didn't see that he was in the
U.S. illegally.

Yah, he was an illegal -- but he did apologize. http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3494205

He apparently had no prior record and had been in the US for 18 years.. He's a construction worker, and in an interview, he said that he worked directly for Donald Trump. In fact, it was Trump who served him the beer and margaritas and told him to mix it up with some liberals on bikes. The interview was on Felix Jones "Info Battles," the new radical left-wing, ANTIFA YouTube channel. He was supposedly drinking with Trump at Comet Ping Pong and sending nasty Tweets to Hillary.

US citizen white people never drive drunk. FACT! Anyone who is not me, go back to your not-me country!

-- Jay Beattie.

In a March 2011 report titled "Criminal Alien Statistics, Information on Incarcerations, Arrests, and Costs", the Government Accountability Office (GAO) estimated, based on a random sample it had performed, that the criminal aliens it studied had an "average of 7 arrests, 65 percent were arrested at least once for an immigration offense, and about 50 percent were arrested at least once for a drug offense." This means that of the criminal aliens GAO studied, the average alien who had been arrested at least once was arrested seven times; simply put, criminal aliens generally commit other crimes.

Drunk driving is an offense that is particularly prone to repetition. According to MADD statistics, "an average drunk driver has driven drunk 80 times before first arrest" and "every day in America, another 27 people die as a result of drunk driving crashes" and "about one-third of all drivers arrested or convicted of drunk driving are repeat offenders." Any individual who is arrested for DUI or DWI has likely, therefore, driven drunk tens of times before, and has an extremely high chance of doing so again.

But this is all a joke and should be demonstrated with sarcasm - right?

Absolutely -- because the nut-job Chicken Littles are driving me crazy. This is the Deseret News, the mouthpiece of the Mormon Church (but nonetheless a pretty good newspaper): https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...migration.html

You and your zany tin-foil hat crowd go overboard with such vigor and regularity that even fair-minded people like me tune out.

I'm all for reasonable immigration policies and immigration enforcement.. I'm just sick, sick, sick of all the alt-right BS -- which is not only unchristian, it ignores basic economic realities -- as well as other realities.

BTW, the right should scare you, too. Paul Ryan is talking about privatizing Medicare, which means you'll get some paltry stipend to buy a policy that costs five times as much. Your alt-right wish will become a nightmare.

-- Jay Beattie.


We don't disagree fundamentally.

My grandparents all endured a 40 day quarantine, had to
provide a destination address and person responsible for
them plus assurance they would not be a public charge. My
son in law, a licensed engineer, spent 8 years and a heap of
trouble to become naturalized, as did two friends (both
educated professionals). I have sponsored visas for
immigrants through my company and hired others.

That said, there seems to be no lower limit or much of any
limit now for the open borders policy, richly exploited by
various and sundry scum from IRGC to MS13 and so on.

Whatever policy may exist on paper, in practice it's a mess.

Oh, and unreasonably, unfairly, inefficiently and flippantly
random such that hotel maids get deported but dope dealers
and other criminals bring the whole village in.

The sanctuary city policies are designed ONLY to protect felons. This is the liberal's idea of being kind.

On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 2:18:22 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/6/2017 2:35 PM, wrote:

Drunk driving is an offense that is particularly prone to repetition. According to MADD statistics, "an average drunk driver has driven drunk 80 times before first arrest" and "every day in America, another 27 people die as a result of drunk driving crashes" and "about one-third of all drivers arrested or convicted of drunk driving are repeat offenders." Any individual who is arrested for DUI or DWI has likely, therefore, driven drunk tens of times before, and has an extremely high chance of doing so again.

But this is all a joke and should be demonstrated with sarcasm - right?

The question was: What exactly do you propose should be done about it, Tom?

You provide lots of ranting, but very few realistic answers.

And as usual the obvious flies right past you. All it takes is enforcing traffic laws since the danger to the public comes from people breaking these laws. Let me here you say "duhhhhhhh" as usual.

On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 5:59:00 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 12:25:57 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/6/2017 2:13 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 11:35:56 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 11:05:40 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 9:50:55 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/6/2017 11:45 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/6/2017 10:26 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/6/2017 9:52 AM, AMuzi wrote:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3545213



We need sensible regulation, dammit. Drunk driving ought
to be against the law. Anyone piloting a motor vehicle
on a public road should have to pass a skills competence
test and a written statute-based test and then carry a
document with their picture on it. More laws! Yep that
oughta do it.

Your sarcasm is noted. But what do you propose? No
requirement for driver's licenses, no limit on blood alcohol
while driving?


Since those great ideas are hardly practiced, back at you.

Our local news regularly notes arrests for 6th, 8th, 12th offense DUI.
We don't have as many illegal aliens (no registration, no license, no
speak English) as they do in SoCal but the trend is clear.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2490337.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-15-times.html

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...307-story.html

The topic seems to have suddenly shifted from drunk drivers to illegal
aliens. Those topics may overlap, but they are not one and the same. The
guy in your article is Hispanic, but I didn't see that he was in the
U.S. illegally.

Yah, he was an illegal -- but he did apologize. http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3494205

He apparently had no prior record and had been in the US for 18 years. He's a construction worker, and in an interview, he said that he worked directly for Donald Trump. In fact, it was Trump who served him the beer and margaritas and told him to mix it up with some liberals on bikes. The interview was on Felix Jones "Info Battles," the new radical left-wing, ANTIFA YouTube channel. He was supposedly drinking with Trump at Comet Ping Pong and sending nasty Tweets to Hillary.

US citizen white people never drive drunk. FACT! Anyone who is not me, go back to your not-me country!

-- Jay Beattie.

In a March 2011 report titled "Criminal Alien Statistics, Information on Incarcerations, Arrests, and Costs", the Government Accountability Office (GAO) estimated, based on a random sample it had performed, that the criminal aliens it studied had an "average of 7 arrests, 65 percent were arrested at least once for an immigration offense, and about 50 percent were arrested at least once for a drug offense." This means that of the criminal aliens GAO studied, the average alien who had been arrested at least once was arrested seven times; simply put, criminal aliens generally commit other crimes.

Drunk driving is an offense that is particularly prone to repetition.. According to MADD statistics, "an average drunk driver has driven drunk 80 times before first arrest" and "every day in America, another 27 people die as a result of drunk driving crashes" and "about one-third of all drivers arrested or convicted of drunk driving are repeat offenders." Any individual who is arrested for DUI or DWI has likely, therefore, driven drunk tens of times before, and has an extremely high chance of doing so again.

But this is all a joke and should be demonstrated with sarcasm - right?

Absolutely -- because the nut-job Chicken Littles are driving me crazy. This is the Deseret News, the mouthpiece of the Mormon Church (but nonetheless a pretty good newspaper): https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...migration.html

You and your zany tin-foil hat crowd go overboard with such vigor and regularity that even fair-minded people like me tune out.

I'm all for reasonable immigration policies and immigration enforcement. I'm just sick, sick, sick of all the alt-right BS -- which is not only unchristian, it ignores basic economic realities -- as well as other realities.

BTW, the right should scare you, too. Paul Ryan is talking about privatizing Medicare, which means you'll get some paltry stipend to buy a policy that costs five times as much. Your alt-right wish will become a nightmare.

-- Jay Beattie.


We don't disagree fundamentally.

My grandparents all endured a 40 day quarantine, had to
provide a destination address and person responsible for
them plus assurance they would not be a public charge. My
son in law, a licensed engineer, spent 8 years and a heap of
trouble to become naturalized, as did two friends (both
educated professionals). I have sponsored visas for
immigrants through my company and hired others.

That said, there seems to be no lower limit or much of any
limit now for the open borders policy, richly exploited by
various and sundry scum from IRGC to MS13 and so on.

Whatever policy may exist on paper, in practice it's a mess.

Oh, and unreasonably, unfairly, inefficiently and flippantly
random such that hotel maids get deported but dope dealers
and other criminals bring the whole village in.

It seems like ICE is more interested in sending a signal to sanctuary cities -- busting maids and pulling wings off flies for the political fun of it. The hard work of catching drug dealers is not the top priority. It would be nice if we had a policy that actually promoted crime prevention. At least they could sweat the maid to make her rat-out MS13 -- unless she happens to be Filipino or doesn't know MS13 from WD40.

ICE raided entire groups last week. Who did they arrest? Only those with criminal records that had been deported many times already.

So exactly why are you proposing that they've been busting maids?