There ARE more adults riding bikes

On Oct 13, 2:34*pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:


I hate having to contend with wrong-way riders
in my line, too. *The ones I usually encounter
are very scruffy looking (and smelling,) often
conversing with imaginary companions, and their
bikes are festooned with green garbage bags full
of cans & bottles to be cashed-in at the recycling
depot.

And they probably post a lot on Usenet, too!

*It doesn't take much to set some of these
folks off on an irrational tirade.

Q.E.D.

- Frank Krygowski

On Oct 13, 4:54*pm, Luigi de Guzman wrote:

A traffic ticket and actual police enforcement would be far more
effective at getting the word out. *As would a number of fatal accidents
in which news reports prominently highlighted the fact that "the cyclist
was riding opposite the flow of traffic, and thus was struck and killed."

The problem, of course, is that it's a rare journalist who will
understand the connection. And cops who understand are only a little
less rare.

The last guy I talked to about wrong way riding was on a quiet street
just a block from my house. We were going the same direction on
opposite sides of the street. I was friendly, and tried to engage him
in conversation, but he said "No way! I'm an ex-cop, I was a cop for
20 years, and I know the law! Bikes have to ride facing traffic!"

Likewise, when our village got its first bike cop, I saw him riding
wrong way, and very, very carefully mentioned it - something like "Um,
you realize you were violating the law there, right?" He said
"Really? You know, I've had people ask me which side of the road a
bike's supposed to ride on, and I didn't know what to tell them."

sigh

- Frank Krygowski

In article ,
John Thompson writes:
On 2008-10-13, Tom Keats wrote:

In article ,
John Thompson writes:

I yell out "welcome to America! We ride *with* the traffic here!"

I guess it's good when people ride bicycles at all. I'm
all for that, and supportive of anyone who wants to ride.

Being meddlingly officious at people often just makes 'em
dig-in their heels and stubbornly adhere to their
preconceived ways.

I don't consider it to be "meddlingly officious;" I think it's a safety
issue -- theirs *and mine!*

Well, at least yelling: "welcome to America! We ride *with*
the traffic here!" isn't too provocative. It's a pretty
mild way of informing wrong-way riders of the errors of
their ways. That's not really being meddlingly officious,
but it could readily be construed as such by the person
being addressed.

I'm not saying we shouldn't say anything when we're directly
and detrimentally affected by poor judgment and poor practice
on the parts of others. I'm saying that when we do, it
usually doesn't accomplish much anyway.

Yelling at drivers who pull boneheaded manoeuvers doesn't
enlighten them, either. At best, it's an opportunity
to vent.

It would be nice if /all/ riders were open to reason and
rational, informative discussion. But that's not always
the case. Most of the wrong way riders I encounter
appear to be teetering on the brink of beligerance, and
I usually don't have the time to engage in vain arguments,
let alone public spectacles with people who think the
Mother Ship orbiting above is planting evil thoughts in
their minds.

So all I'm saying is: ya can't win.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

In article ,
Frank Krygowski writes:
On Oct 13, 2:34*pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:


I hate having to contend with wrong-way riders
in my line, too. *The ones I usually encounter
are very scruffy looking (and smelling,) often
conversing with imaginary companions, and their
bikes are festooned with green garbage bags full
of cans & bottles to be cashed-in at the recycling
depot.
And they probably post a lot on Usenet, too!
*It doesn't take much to set some of these
folks off on an irrational tirade.
Q.E.D.

I seem to stand accused of poor-bashing.
Perhaps some context will vindicate me:

http://tinyurl.com/4s8yau
http://preview.tinyurl.com/4s8yau

in full: http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=12d1dfbd-1395-490c-836e-4ba794c7167f

Past & present Provincial governments here have
seen fit to severely cut back needed support of
mentally distressed individuals.

Back in the '70s we had all kinds of mental health
safety net, but that went by the wayside since the
Recession of the early '80s and the "downsizing"
trend of the early-mid '90s. These fellow citizens
find themselves unemployable and unhousable, and out
on the streets, trying to eke by as best they can, often
by collecting returnable cans & bottles (we have
deposits on returnable cans & bottles here.) There's
a /lot/ of these so-called "street people" here, and
cans & bottles are often their main sources of income.
You'd be hard pressed to find an empty beer or pop can
on the streets of Vancouver.

I'm neither mocking nor criticizing these people.
I'm acknowledging their presence. Bicycles and often
some quite ingenious homemade trailer rigs facilitate
their bottle-collecting rounds. These are the local
people who tend to be wrong way riders. Vancouver has
a vast ridership, and it's easy for any rational person
to determine the appropriate side of the street to ride
on, simply by following the examples of so many fellow
riders. But not all the riders here are so rational.

In Vancouver, wrong way riding is irrational and
abherrent behaviour. It's not "stupid" behaviour,
it's not misled behaviour and it's not really
malicious behaviour.

As I've previously said, I don't particularly like
encountering wrong way riders in my line, but I'm
prepared to have a heart and as much understanding
as I can muster for the people I encounter.

I heartily recommend this approach.

For what it's worth, a lot of street people with
mental issues find themselves suspected of having
addled their brains with drugs, when in reality
they've sustained on-the-job brain injuries that
have rendered them unable to continue with the
only kind of work they've ever known.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

In article ,
Tom Sherman writes:
Tom Keats wrote:
[...]
I think one of the worst situations is where a bike
lane exists only on one side of a bi-directional
road or street. Some riders will assume the single
bike lane is also bi-directional.

Riding against traffic in one of these "bicycle lanes" is a great way to
get run over by left turning motorists.

I suppose if one is heads-up enough, one could
pull it off in a pinch. If there's nobody around
to be predictable to, it doesn't matter.

On a number of Vancouver's bridges, riding on the
sidewalks is actually encouraged and mandated, to
get riders off the roadway portion of the bridge.
Etiquette dictates riders should ride on the side
of the bridge appropriate to their direction. But
of course one always encounters riders coming the
other way. I'm going the "right" way, but I always
seem to be the guy who lets the the wrong way people
by. I'm such a wimp, but I'm leery of bridges anyway.
Especially when my saddle is higher than the guardrail.

Wear a PFD or get 'bent. [1]

I can swim, but my bike can't.
Maybe I should stick airbags on it.

Another thing is that many new cyclists tend to travel the same main
roads on which they would normally drive a car instead of looking for
more bike friendly parallel routes.

A lot of people just have to learn the hard way.
In fact, they insist upon it. I guess that's
their right.[...]

I find the main arterials more bicycle friendly in many cases, or at
least street with enough traffic that intersections with arterials are
controlled by traffic signals. Crossing multiple lanes of higher speed
traffic at low speed is not my idea of bicycle friendly. Riding on the
major streets also lessens the number of motorists that pull out in
front of you.

In Vancouver the main arterials have become fraught with
so many traffic lights. The major intersections have
timed lights, and the less major intersections have
loop-detector or push-button lights. There are traffic lights
every second block. Riding on the arterials often means
dealing with red light after red light after red light ...

So here it's better not to seek out not the main arterials nor
the parallel bike routes, but the diagonals that swiftly get
you from one section of town to another, disassociated one.
The trick is to avoid as many timed traffic lights as possible.

We have a great number of intersections with cyclists'
traffic light push-buttons that aren't on designated/official
bike routes. You just have to know where they are.
You don't always have to push the button.

The diagonals will set you free.


cheers,
Tom

[1] "It's a joke, son."
I know. It's okay.

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Tom Keats wrote:
In article ,
Frank Krygowski writes:
On Oct 13, 2:34 pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:

I hate having to contend with wrong-way riders
in my line, too. The ones I usually encounter
are very scruffy looking (and smelling,) often
conversing with imaginary companions, and their
bikes are festooned with green garbage bags full
of cans & bottles to be cashed-in at the recycling
depot.
And they probably post a lot on Usenet, too!
It doesn't take much to set some of these
folks off on an irrational tirade.
Q.E.D.

I seem to stand accused of poor-bashing.
Perhaps some context will vindicate me:

http://tinyurl.com/4s8yau
http://preview.tinyurl.com/4s8yau

in full: http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=12d1dfbd-1395-490c-836e-4ba794c7167f

Past & present Provincial governments here have
seen fit to severely cut back needed support of
mentally distressed individuals.

That is what you get for imitating the US.

Back in the '70s we had all kinds of mental health
safety net, but that went by the wayside since the
Recession of the early '80s and the "downsizing"
trend of the early-mid '90s. These fellow citizens
find themselves unemployable and unhousable, and out
on the streets, trying to eke by as best they can, often
by collecting returnable cans & bottles (we have
deposits on returnable cans & bottles here.) There's
a /lot/ of these so-called "street people" here, and
cans & bottles are often their main sources of income.
You'd be hard pressed to find an empty beer or pop can
on the streets of Vancouver.

"Social Darwinism" in action.

[...]
For what it's worth, a lot of street people with
mental issues find themselves suspected of having
addled their brains with drugs, when in reality
they've sustained on-the-job brain injuries that
have rendered them unable to continue with the
only kind of work they've ever known.

They should have chosen to be born economically independent. No mercy
for those who do not choose to have rich parents. end sarcasm

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
If you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the precipitate.

"Luigi de Guzman" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:30:24 -0700, Art Harris wrote:


Since I only have their ear for a few seconds, I try to nicely say,
"You're riding on the wrong side. You're going to cause an accident." I
doubt that it makes a difference, but you never know. If every cyclist
they passed said that, they might eventually get the message.

A traffic ticket and actual police enforcement would be far more
effective at getting the word out. As would a number of fatal accidents
in which news reports prominently highlighted the fact that "the cyclist
was riding opposite the flow of traffic, and thus was struck and killed."

It's only too bad that contributory negligence is on its way out as a
legal doctrine, as well, because having an automobile driver claim that
the cyclist he struck was riding the wrong way would have immunized the
car driver from liability--since, by riding the wrong way, the cyclist
would have been deemed to have 'contributed' to his injury, and thus
would be legally barred from the 'profits' of that contribution.

People don't learn until they get hurt. People don't cycle until driving
is impossible or prohibitively expensive.

Well, exactly how many accidents are caused by people riding the wrong way
on a road?
Sure, it is not safe, but I think this is one of the least threatening
things people can do, which is one reason
why most police don't ticket these people.






--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com

"Tom Keats" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Thompson writes:
On 2008-10-13, Tom Keats wrote:

In article ,
John Thompson writes:

I yell out "welcome to America! We ride *with* the traffic here!"

I guess it's good when people ride bicycles at all. I'm
all for that, and supportive of anyone who wants to ride.

Being meddlingly officious at people often just makes 'em
dig-in their heels and stubbornly adhere to their
preconceived ways.

I don't consider it to be "meddlingly officious;" I think it's a safety
issue -- theirs *and mine!*

Well, at least yelling: "welcome to America! We ride *with*
the traffic here!" isn't too provocative. It's a pretty
mild way of informing wrong-way riders of the errors of
their ways. That's not really being meddlingly officious,
but it could readily be construed as such by the person
being addressed.

I'm not saying we shouldn't say anything when we're directly
and detrimentally affected by poor judgment and poor practice
on the parts of others. I'm saying that when we do, it
usually doesn't accomplish much anyway.

Yelling at drivers who pull boneheaded manoeuvers doesn't
enlighten them, either. At best, it's an opportunity
to vent.

It would be nice if /all/ riders were open to reason and
rational, informative discussion. But that's not always
the case. Most of the wrong way riders I encounter
appear to be teetering on the brink of beligerance, and
I usually don't have the time to engage in vain arguments,
let alone public spectacles with people who think the
Mother Ship orbiting above is planting evil thoughts in
their minds.

So all I'm saying is: ya can't win.


I find your arguments on this matter very convincing, Tom.

::
:: Well, exactly how many accidents are caused by people riding the
:: wrong way on a road?
:: Sure, it is not safe, but I think this is one of the least
:: threatening things people can do, which is one reason
:: why most police don't ticket these people.


I have never seen a police officer ticket ANY bike riders! People are always
upset over H()*&t laws, but, realistically, if a law isn't enforced, it's
just a hollow gesture.

Pat

"PatTX" wrote


I have never seen a police officer ticket ANY bike riders! People are
always upset over H()*&t laws, but, realistically, if a law isn't
enforced, it's just a hollow gesture.


I've never seen it either, come to think of it. But I have heard various
accounts (here and in other forums) of cyclists getting tickets for things
like busting a stop sign or light. I think those are the two things that
cyclist mostly get in trouble for. More rare are bank robbers escaping on a
bike.