Airborne

On Fri, 28 May 2021 07:03:32 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

I believe that the only U.S. 2 engine bombers that bombed Japan were
the Doolittle Raid (led Colonel James H. Doolittle, of course) in
1942.

As for justification, well, bombing of what might be called "civilian"
targets was practiced by all sides during WW II, the German, English,
U.S., Japanese, and Russians.

The fact that you think it was an improper thing to do, today, some 70
years later is simply evidence of your ignorance.

Go back and read newspapers from that error and see what the U.S. or
British public thought about saturation bombing. In both cases they
were terror stricken when it happened to them and vastly in support of
it when it happened to the "other guy".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 11:45:39 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 11:18:10 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 11:00:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Tom has a point, and urban fire bombing was probably illegal under some war convention, but getting the attention of a militarized population willing to follow its Emperor into the glorious afterlife was no easy feat. I doubt re-bombing a few military bases or industrial plants would have made a difference. I'm no expert, but this issue is the subject of endless post hoc debate by real experts.
I think that "real experts" is exactly what is not needed on this issue.. As I noted, we tried and executed the Germans for little more. Was it "experts" serving on the jury?
I'm talking about experts in terms of history, ethics, law, etc. People who can give an informed opinion rather than a personal expression of what is "right" or "wrong."

BTW, no jurors at Nuremberg -- that was a military tribunal or a the equivalent of a judge trial. Judges find facts and apply the law to the facts, whatever the law may be. I have no idea what the law is -- or even the relevant body of law apart from the Geneva Convention or US military law as it applies to members of our armed services. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%E1%BB%B9_Lai_massacre

Just a small correction - the OFFICERS of a military tribunal are the judges and jury. And in WW II they were not that passes for officers today.

Every time a B17 pilot went up, there was a GOOD chance he wouldn't be coming back. Several sorties lost over 50%.

So what was important to a man like Patton was not kill 'em all and let God sort them out.

What they shot German officers for was crimes against humanity. And that was what LeMay did. Though that is arguable. But as I said, there were ALTERNATE methods that were every bit as effective because at that time the Army Airforce had complete air superiority. Not only did we have 2 heavy bombers but 2 medium bombers. We had three AAF fighters and 2 Navy fighters so that there was NOTHING that the Japanese could do to defend themselves. Project Overload would have succeeded without that bombing campaign before the bomb was dropped.

I am sure that you know what PTSD is. Well, JAPAN was PTSD after that war.

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 3:09:29 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 1:15 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Andrew, are you thinking that you can forgive war crimes on our part by saying that they committed war crimes? I don't think that I could say that what we did was exactly a war crime, but certainly there were just as effect alternatives that would not have killed so many people in so horrible a manner.

Plenty enough of that criticism to go around. Soviets were
not much better than Japanese in treatment of Germans and
even American pilots who made it across after the Doolittle
raid, some of whom died in the gulags years later.

You may have a point but it's based on modern sensibilities,
which is a limiting principle.

At that time Truman (and LeMay etc) did the right thing as
they understood it, with the information and resources they
had, decisively, in the moment.

Well, I agree that LeMay thought that it was in his hands to win or lose the way. MacArthur was VERY angry that he didn't have a chance to invade Japan though they predicted 2 million casualties.

On Fri, 28 May 2021 07:05:00 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 9:39:32 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.
Hmmm. Groves was an administrator. Oppenheimer was the den mother for a lot of brilliant scientists who developed the bomb. Truman dropped them. He could have said "no." I'd give him the nod.

The nuclear bombs killed FAR less people than LeMay did. You can say that LeMay was a winner but don't tell that to the survivors of a napalm attack.


Well you got it wrong again. Bombing of the Japanese home land was
approved in late 1943, by the United States Joint Chiefs of Staff to
begin the strategic air campaign against the Japanese home islands. XX
Bomber Command was assigned responsibility for Operation Matterhorn,
and its ground crew began to leave the United States for India during
December 1943. The Twentieth Air Force was formed in April 1944 to
oversee all B-29 operations. In an unprecedented move, the commander
of the USAAF, General Henry H. Arnold, took personal command of this
unit and ran it from the Pentagon in Washington, D.C

As for General LeMay's contribution, well, when he determined that
bombing from high altitudes was ineffective he ordered that bombing
should be done from lower altitudes - 5,000 ft.

You seem to have some wild idea that the strategic decision to fire
bomb Japanese cities was a decision made by General LeMay but that
sort of decision is not made by what is essentially a unit commander,
it is the province of the Big Dogs commanding the war. A local
commander may well make decisions about the tactics used to implement
the decisions of those "back in Washington" but that is all.

General McArther's "removal" from command was a result of him trying
to dictate the conduct of the war rather then obeying decisions made
by the President.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 4:03:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 07:03:32 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.
I believe that the only U.S. 2 engine bombers that bombed Japan were
the Doolittle Raid (led Colonel James H. Doolittle, of course) in
1942.

As for justification, well, bombing of what might be called "civilian"
targets was practiced by all sides during WW II, the German, English,
U.S., Japanese, and Russians.

The fact that you think it was an improper thing to do, today, some 70
years later is simply evidence of your ignorance.

Go back and read newspapers from that error and see what the U.S. or
British public thought about saturation bombing. In both cases they
were terror stricken when it happened to them and vastly in support of
it when it happened to the "other guy".

America had at least two major medium bombers - the A10 and the B26 - These were called tactical bombers and participated in ANY ground action and that included the getting ready to invade Japan.

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 5:10:40 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 07:05:00 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 9:39:32 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.
Hmmm. Groves was an administrator. Oppenheimer was the den mother for a lot of brilliant scientists who developed the bomb. Truman dropped them. He could have said "no." I'd give him the nod.

The nuclear bombs killed FAR less people than LeMay did. You can say that LeMay was a winner but don't tell that to the survivors of a napalm attack.
Well you got it wrong again. Bombing of the Japanese home land was
approved in late 1943, by the United States Joint Chiefs of Staff to
begin the strategic air campaign against the Japanese home islands. XX
Bomber Command was assigned responsibility for Operation Matterhorn,
and its ground crew began to leave the United States for India during
December 1943. The Twentieth Air Force was formed in April 1944 to
oversee all B-29 operations. In an unprecedented move, the commander
of the USAAF, General Henry H. Arnold, took personal command of this
unit and ran it from the Pentagon in Washington, D.C

As for General LeMay's contribution, well, when he determined that
bombing from high altitudes was ineffective he ordered that bombing
should be done from lower altitudes - 5,000 ft.

You seem to have some wild idea that the strategic decision to fire
bomb Japanese cities was a decision made by General LeMay but that
sort of decision is not made by what is essentially a unit commander,
it is the province of the Big Dogs commanding the war. A local
commander may well make decisions about the tactics used to implement
the decisions of those "back in Washington" but that is all.

General McArther's "removal" from command was a result of him trying
to dictate the conduct of the war rather then obeying decisions made
by the President.

John when you're so full of **** it is coming out of your ears perhaps you should stop. The Joint Chiefs AGREED with the commanders on the spot. Do you think that Joint Chiefs didn't agree with the Colonel Armstrong? Even though we ended up with 1/3rdf of the bomber crews and almost NONE of the B17? At the end of the war we had about a dozen B17's left. But according to you that was the decision of the Joint Chiefs. Go kiss you own ass.

On Fri, 28 May 2021 11:22:27 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.


One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.

I once did some research regarding the incarceration of the Japanese
during WW II and I couldn't find a single newspaper article that
opposed the act.

What I found interesting was the fact that while those of Japanese
ancestry were imprisoned in the continental U.S. the Hawaiian
recruited 442nd Infantry Regimental, composed of Japanese Americans,
became the most decorated unit for its size in U.S. military history.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 28 May 2021 11:18:08 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 11:00:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Tom has a point, and urban fire bombing was probably illegal under some war convention, but getting the attention of a militarized population willing to follow its Emperor into the glorious afterlife was no easy feat. I doubt re-bombing a few military bases or industrial plants would have made a difference. I'm no expert, but this issue is the subject of endless post hoc debate by real experts.

I think that "real experts" is exactly what is not needed on this issue. As I noted, we tried and executed the Germans for little more. Was it "experts" serving on the jury?

But Tommy, Hermann Goering, who was Commander-in-Chief of the
Luftwaffe throughout the war was not convicted of the "crime" of
saturation bombing of English cities.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/28/2021 7:33 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 11:22:27 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.


One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.

I once did some research regarding the incarceration of the Japanese
during WW II and I couldn't find a single newspaper article that
opposed the act.

What I found interesting was the fact that while those of Japanese
ancestry were imprisoned in the continental U.S. the Hawaiian
recruited 442nd Infantry Regimental, composed of Japanese Americans,
became the most decorated unit for its size in U.S. military history.


The great philosopher Joe Louis said at the time, "Plenty
wrong with this country. Ain't nothing Hitler can fix."

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/28/2021 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 11:18:08 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 11:00:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Tom has a point, and urban fire bombing was probably illegal under some war convention, but getting the attention of a militarized population willing to follow its Emperor into the glorious afterlife was no easy feat. I doubt re-bombing a few military bases or industrial plants would have made a difference. I'm no expert, but this issue is the subject of endless post hoc debate by real experts.

I think that "real experts" is exactly what is not needed on this issue. As I noted, we tried and executed the Germans for little more. Was it "experts" serving on the jury?

But Tommy, Hermann Goering, who was Commander-in-Chief of the
Luftwaffe throughout the war was not convicted of the "crime" of
saturation bombing of English cities.


Uncle Joe Stalin skated on Holmodor. That, like life itself,
isn't fair. But there you go that's exactly how it happened.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971