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Dura-Ace 10v wheels: convert to 8/9/10 with freehub transplant?



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 13th 07, 12:18 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ryan Cousineau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,383
Default Dura-Ace 10v wheels: convert to 8/9/10 with freehub transplant?

A friend has a set of 10-speed Dura-Ace wheels. He wants to sell them. A
potential buyer has an 8-speed bike. You see the problem...

1) Can these DA hubs be "downgraded" with a (apparently steel) freehub
from the 8/9/10-compatible 105 hubs?

2) are these freehubs readily available in the parts channels yet?

3) are these DA hubs compatible with the mainstream Shimano freehub
bodies that are available all over the place, not least possibly from
the new purchaser's previous set of wheels? I'm thinking of the
almost-universal Shimano hub that can be removed by pulling out the axle
and then unscrewing the freehub body with a 10mm hex wrench inserted
into where the axle was (it's great fun if you've never done this
before, mainly because you can't really see or believe that there's any
10mm hex flats to engage in there).

Thanks,
-RjC.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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  #2  
Old March 13th 07, 12:44 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
bfd
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 120
Default Dura-Ace 10v wheels: convert to 8/9/10 with freehub transplant?


"Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message
...
A friend has a set of 10-speed Dura-Ace wheels. He wants to sell them. A
potential buyer has an 8-speed bike. You see the problem...

1) Can these DA hubs be "downgraded" with a (apparently steel) freehub
from the 8/9/10-compatible 105 hubs?

2) are these freehubs readily available in the parts channels yet?

3) are these DA hubs compatible with the mainstream Shimano freehub
bodies that are available all over the place, not least possibly from
the new purchaser's previous set of wheels? I'm thinking of the
almost-universal Shimano hub that can be removed by pulling out the axle
and then unscrewing the freehub body with a 10mm hex wrench inserted
into where the axle was (it's great fun if you've never done this
before, mainly because you can't really see or believe that there's any
10mm hex flats to engage in there).

The basic answer to the above is No. The design of the DA 10 Model 7800 rear
hub is substantially different from any other Shimano hub - 8, 9 or 10.

For example, DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub, looks almost identical to the
current Campy 9/10 rear hub (from 2000-2006):

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...9830608915.pdf

In contrast, all other Shimano rear hubs, from 8, 9, and 10 are more like
this:

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...9830610236.pdf

Notice the different in ball bearing placement on the right, drive side.

The best bet for your friend is to either run 10 speed drive train and use
the DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub. Or just get any other Shimano rear hub and
use 8, 9 or 10. Good Luck!



  #3  
Old March 13th 07, 01:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ryan Cousineau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,383
Default Dura-Ace 10v wheels: convert to 8/9/10 with freehub transplant?

In article ,
"bfd" wrote:

"Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message
...
A friend has a set of 10-speed Dura-Ace wheels. He wants to sell them. A
potential buyer has an 8-speed bike. You see the problem...

1) Can these DA hubs be "downgraded" with a (apparently steel) freehub
from the 8/9/10-compatible 105 hubs?

2) are these freehubs readily available in the parts channels yet?

3) are these DA hubs compatible with the mainstream Shimano freehub
bodies that are available all over the place, not least possibly from
the new purchaser's previous set of wheels? I'm thinking of the
almost-universal Shimano hub that can be removed by pulling out the axle
and then unscrewing the freehub body with a 10mm hex wrench inserted
into where the axle was (it's great fun if you've never done this
before, mainly because you can't really see or believe that there's any
10mm hex flats to engage in there).

The basic answer to the above is No. The design of the DA 10 Model 7800 rear
hub is substantially different from any other Shimano hub - 8, 9 or 10.

For example, DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub, looks almost identical to the
current Campy 9/10 rear hub (from 2000-2006):

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...components/FH/
EV-FH-7800-2252_v1_m56577569830608915.pdf

In contrast, all other Shimano rear hubs, from 8, 9, and 10 are more like
this:

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...components/FH/
EV-FH-7700-1654_v1_m56577569830610236.pdf

Notice the different in ball bearing placement on the right, drive side.

The best bet for your friend is to either run 10 speed drive train and use
the DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub. Or just get any other Shimano rear hub and
use 8, 9 or 10. Good Luck!


Thanks for that answer. Makes sense. But I wonder why they changed it? I
thought the old design was considered superior to freewheels largely
because of the outboard bearings.

Thanks also for reminding me about Shimano's techdocs site. Lots of
detailed goodness there.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
  #4  
Old March 13th 07, 01:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
bfd
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 120
Default Dura-Ace 10v wheels: convert to 8/9/10 with freehub transplant?


"Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"bfd" wrote:

"Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message
...
A friend has a set of 10-speed Dura-Ace wheels. He wants to sell them. A
potential buyer has an 8-speed bike. You see the problem...

1) Can these DA hubs be "downgraded" with a (apparently steel) freehub
from the 8/9/10-compatible 105 hubs?

2) are these freehubs readily available in the parts channels yet?

3) are these DA hubs compatible with the mainstream Shimano freehub
bodies that are available all over the place, not least possibly from
the new purchaser's previous set of wheels? I'm thinking of the
almost-universal Shimano hub that can be removed by pulling out the
axle
and then unscrewing the freehub body with a 10mm hex wrench inserted
into where the axle was (it's great fun if you've never done this
before, mainly because you can't really see or believe that there's any
10mm hex flats to engage in there).

The basic answer to the above is No. The design of the DA 10 Model 7800
rear
hub is substantially different from any other Shimano hub - 8, 9 or 10.

For example, DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub, looks almost identical to the
current Campy 9/10 rear hub (from 2000-2006):

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...components/FH/
EV-FH-7800-2252_v1_m56577569830608915.pdf

In contrast, all other Shimano rear hubs, from 8, 9, and 10 are more like
this:

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...components/FH/
EV-FH-7700-1654_v1_m56577569830610236.pdf

Notice the different in ball bearing placement on the right, drive side.

The best bet for your friend is to either run 10 speed drive train and
use
the DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub. Or just get any other Shimano rear hub and
use 8, 9 or 10. Good Luck!


Thanks for that answer. Makes sense. But I wonder why they changed it? I
thought the old design was considered superior to freewheels largely
because of the outboard bearings.

Thanks also for reminding me about Shimano's techdocs site. Lots of
detailed goodness there.

I think the reason Shimano changed its design was *lighter weight.*
Remember, Dura Ace is Shimano's racing group. The DA 9 Model 7700 rear hub
weighed around 310 or 312g (WITHOUT SKEWER). In contrast, even Campy third
level rear hub, i.e., Centaur/Daytona/Athena, was lighter than DA 9 Model
7700 as it weighed in around 260g (again, without skewer).

Looking at the DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub, you'll see an oversized axle like
Campy for lighter weight; the DA 10 rear hub weighs like 260g without
skewer. However, in copying Campy's design, it moved the right, drive side
bearings inboard inside of the freehub body. This appears to be weaker in
design, but you don't see the axle breaking because it is oversized.


  #5  
Old March 13th 07, 03:32 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jim beam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,758
Default Dura-Ace 10v wheels: convert to 8/9/10 with freehub transplant?

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In article ,
"bfd" wrote:

"Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message
...
A friend has a set of 10-speed Dura-Ace wheels. He wants to sell them. A
potential buyer has an 8-speed bike. You see the problem...

1) Can these DA hubs be "downgraded" with a (apparently steel) freehub
from the 8/9/10-compatible 105 hubs?

2) are these freehubs readily available in the parts channels yet?

3) are these DA hubs compatible with the mainstream Shimano freehub
bodies that are available all over the place, not least possibly from
the new purchaser's previous set of wheels? I'm thinking of the
almost-universal Shimano hub that can be removed by pulling out the axle
and then unscrewing the freehub body with a 10mm hex wrench inserted
into where the axle was (it's great fun if you've never done this
before, mainly because you can't really see or believe that there's any
10mm hex flats to engage in there).

The basic answer to the above is No. The design of the DA 10 Model 7800 rear
hub is substantially different from any other Shimano hub - 8, 9 or 10.

For example, DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub, looks almost identical to the
current Campy 9/10 rear hub (from 2000-2006):

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...components/FH/
EV-FH-7800-2252_v1_m56577569830608915.pdf

In contrast, all other Shimano rear hubs, from 8, 9, and 10 are more like
this:

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...components/FH/
EV-FH-7700-1654_v1_m56577569830610236.pdf

Notice the different in ball bearing placement on the right, drive side.

The best bet for your friend is to either run 10 speed drive train and use
the DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub. Or just get any other Shimano rear hub and
use 8, 9 or 10. Good Luck!


Thanks for that answer. Makes sense. But I wonder why they changed it? I
thought the old design was considered superior to freewheels largely
because of the outboard bearings.


arguably, it is. but the shallow teeth used mean high point loading on
the f/h body, so consequently, it needs to be made of something strong
to cope - i.e. steel or ti. and that's heavier than al. plenty of
aftermarket manufacturers make shimano style f/h bodies of al and they
get badly mangled. even the expensive ones. shimano, being smarter
than the others, realized that /if/ they went with al, they'd have to
use deeper teeth to get around the point loading issue, hence that
design difference. as for the inboard bearings, again, if pure weight
is the goal, go with an al axle, and the increased diameter necessary to
make it strong enough mean you can't get the bearings outboard anymore.
it's not a purists solution, thats for sure.


Thanks also for reminding me about Shimano's techdocs site. Lots of
detailed goodness there.

  #6  
Old March 13th 07, 12:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Qui si parla Campagnolo Qui si parla Campagnolo is offline
Banned
 
First recorded activity by CycleBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,259
Default Dura-Ace 10v wheels: convert to 8/9/10 with freehub transplant?

On Mar 12, 6:18 pm, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
A friend has a set of 10-speed Dura-Ace wheels. He wants to sell them. A
potential buyer has an 8-speed bike. You see the problem...

1) Can these DA hubs be "downgraded" with a (apparently steel) freehub
from the 8/9/10-compatible 105 hubs?


Nope, unique axle-

2) are these freehubs readily available in the parts channels yet?


Available, yes.QBP has 'em as does shimano, USA

3) are these DA hubs compatible with the mainstream Shimano freehub
bodies that are available all over the place, not least possibly from
the new purchaser's previous set of wheels? I'm thinking of the
almost-universal Shimano hub that can be removed by pulling out the axle
and then unscrewing the freehub body with a 10mm hex wrench inserted
into where the axle was (it's great fun if you've never done this
before, mainly because you can't really see or believe that there's any
10mm hex flats to engage in there).


Nope, unique hub, design very much like Campagnolo with an oversized
aluminum axle, 3/16(i think) balls...

Thanks,
-RjC.

--
Ryan Cousineau /
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos



  #7  
Old March 13th 07, 12:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Qui si parla Campagnolo Qui si parla Campagnolo is offline
Banned
 
First recorded activity by CycleBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,259
Default Dura-Ace 10v wheels: convert to 8/9/10 with freehub transplant?

On Mar 12, 7:26 pm, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In article ,



"bfd" wrote:
"Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message
...
A friend has a set of 10-speed Dura-Ace wheels. He wants to sell them. A
potential buyer has an 8-speed bike. You see the problem...


1) Can these DA hubs be "downgraded" with a (apparently steel) freehub
from the 8/9/10-compatible 105 hubs?


2) are these freehubs readily available in the parts channels yet?


3) are these DA hubs compatible with the mainstream Shimano freehub
bodies that are available all over the place, not least possibly from
the new purchaser's previous set of wheels? I'm thinking of the
almost-universal Shimano hub that can be removed by pulling out the axle
and then unscrewing the freehub body with a 10mm hex wrench inserted
into where the axle was (it's great fun if you've never done this
before, mainly because you can't really see or believe that there's any
10mm hex flats to engage in there).


The basic answer to the above is No. The design of the DA 10 Model 7800 rear
hub is substantially different from any other Shimano hub - 8, 9 or 10.


For example, DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub, looks almost identical to the
current Campy 9/10 rear hub (from 2000-2006):


http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...e/EV/bikecompo...
EV-FH-7800-2252_v1_m56577569830608915.pdf


In contrast, all other Shimano rear hubs, from 8, 9, and 10 are more like
this:


http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...e/EV/bikecompo...
EV-FH-7700-1654_v1_m56577569830610236.pdf


Notice the different in ball bearing placement on the right, drive side.


The best bet for your friend is to either run 10 speed drive train and use
the DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub. Or just get any other Shimano rear hub and
use 8, 9 or 10. Good Luck!


Thanks for that answer. Makes sense. But I wonder why they changed it? I
thought the old design was considered superior to freewheels largely
because of the outboard bearings.


Cuz whern they stop making 7700 rear hubs and your 7700 hub goes
south, no parts, gotta have DA..gotta upgrade to 10s to have DA-
marketing-

Thanks also for reminding me about Shimano's techdocs site. Lots of
detailed goodness there.

--
Ryan Cousineau /
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos



  #8  
Old March 13th 07, 04:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
bfd
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 487
Default Dura-Ace 10v wheels: convert to 8/9/10 with freehub transplant?

On Mar 13, 5:56 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
wrote:
On Mar 12, 7:26 pm, Ryan Cousineau wrote:





In article ,


"bfd" wrote:
"Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message
...
A friend has a set of 10-speed Dura-Ace wheels. He wants to sell them. A
potential buyer has an 8-speed bike. You see the problem...


1) Can these DA hubs be "downgraded" with a (apparently steel) freehub
from the 8/9/10-compatible 105 hubs?


2) are these freehubs readily available in the parts channels yet?


3) are these DA hubs compatible with the mainstream Shimano freehub
bodies that are available all over the place, not least possibly from
the new purchaser's previous set of wheels? I'm thinking of the
almost-universal Shimano hub that can be removed by pulling out the axle
and then unscrewing the freehub body with a 10mm hex wrench inserted
into where the axle was (it's great fun if you've never done this
before, mainly because you can't really see or believe that there's any
10mm hex flats to engage in there).


The basic answer to the above is No. The design of the DA 10 Model 7800 rear
hub is substantially different from any other Shimano hub - 8, 9 or 10.


For example, DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub, looks almost identical to the
current Campy 9/10 rear hub (from 2000-2006):


http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...e/EV/bikecompo...
EV-FH-7800-2252_v1_m56577569830608915.pdf


In contrast, all other Shimano rear hubs, from 8, 9, and 10 are more like
this:


http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...e/EV/bikecompo...
EV-FH-7700-1654_v1_m56577569830610236.pdf


Notice the different in ball bearing placement on the right, drive side.


The best bet for your friend is to either run 10 speed drive train and use
the DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub. Or just get any other Shimano rear hub and
use 8, 9 or 10. Good Luck!


Thanks for that answer. Makes sense. But I wonder why they changed it? I
thought the old design was considered superior to freewheels largely
because of the outboard bearings.


Cuz whern they stop making 7700 rear hubs and your 7700 hub goes
south, no parts, gotta have DA..gotta upgrade to 10s to have DA-
marketing-

This is interesting. Has Shimano stopped making the 7700 rear hub or
parts for it?

I have 2 DA 9 7700 rear hubs. I had to replaced a crack cone once (it
was expensive - like over $20!) Other than that, I just replace the
1/4" ball bearings periodically and put a little oil in the freehub
body. What else needs to be replaced?

  #9  
Old March 13th 07, 05:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Qui si parla Campagnolo Qui si parla Campagnolo is offline
Banned
 
First recorded activity by CycleBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,259
Default Dura-Ace 10v wheels: convert to 8/9/10 with freehub transplant?

On Mar 13, 10:41 am, "bfd" wrote:
On Mar 13, 5:56 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
wrote:

On Mar 12, 7:26 pm, Ryan Cousineau wrote:


In article ,


"bfd" wrote:
"Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message
...
A friend has a set of 10-speed Dura-Ace wheels. He wants to sell them. A
potential buyer has an 8-speed bike. You see the problem...


1) Can these DA hubs be "downgraded" with a (apparently steel) freehub
from the 8/9/10-compatible 105 hubs?


2) are these freehubs readily available in the parts channels yet?


3) are these DA hubs compatible with the mainstream Shimano freehub
bodies that are available all over the place, not least possibly from
the new purchaser's previous set of wheels? I'm thinking of the
almost-universal Shimano hub that can be removed by pulling out the axle
and then unscrewing the freehub body with a 10mm hex wrench inserted
into where the axle was (it's great fun if you've never done this
before, mainly because you can't really see or believe that there's any
10mm hex flats to engage in there).


The basic answer to the above is No. The design of the DA 10 Model 7800 rear
hub is substantially different from any other Shimano hub - 8, 9 or 10.


For example, DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub, looks almost identical to the
current Campy 9/10 rear hub (from 2000-2006):


http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...e/EV/bikecompo...
EV-FH-7800-2252_v1_m56577569830608915.pdf


In contrast, all other Shimano rear hubs, from 8, 9, and 10 are more like
this:


http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...e/EV/bikecompo...
EV-FH-7700-1654_v1_m56577569830610236.pdf


Notice the different in ball bearing placement on the right, drive side.


The best bet for your friend is to either run 10 speed drive train and use
the DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub. Or just get any other Shimano rear hub and
use 8, 9 or 10. Good Luck!


Thanks for that answer. Makes sense. But I wonder why they changed it? I
thought the old design was considered superior to freewheels largely
because of the outboard bearings.


Cuz whern they stop making 7700 rear hubs and your 7700 hub goes
south, no parts, gotta have DA..gotta upgrade to 10s to have DA-
marketing-


This is interesting. Has Shimano stopped making the 7700 rear hub or
parts for it?

I have 2 DA 9 7700 rear hubs. I had to replaced a crack cone once (it
was expensive - like over $20!) Other than that, I just replace the
1/4" ball bearings periodically and put a little oil in the freehub
body. What else needs to be replaced?



  #10  
Old March 13th 07, 05:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Qui si parla Campagnolo Qui si parla Campagnolo is offline
Banned
 
First recorded activity by CycleBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,259
Default Dura-Ace 10v wheels: convert to 8/9/10 with freehub transplant?

On Mar 13, 10:41 am, "bfd" wrote:
On Mar 13, 5:56 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
wrote:

On Mar 12, 7:26 pm, Ryan Cousineau wrote:


In article ,


"bfd" wrote:
"Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message
...
A friend has a set of 10-speed Dura-Ace wheels. He wants to sell them. A
potential buyer has an 8-speed bike. You see the problem...


1) Can these DA hubs be "downgraded" with a (apparently steel) freehub
from the 8/9/10-compatible 105 hubs?


2) are these freehubs readily available in the parts channels yet?


3) are these DA hubs compatible with the mainstream Shimano freehub
bodies that are available all over the place, not least possibly from
the new purchaser's previous set of wheels? I'm thinking of the
almost-universal Shimano hub that can be removed by pulling out the axle
and then unscrewing the freehub body with a 10mm hex wrench inserted
into where the axle was (it's great fun if you've never done this
before, mainly because you can't really see or believe that there's any
10mm hex flats to engage in there).


The basic answer to the above is No. The design of the DA 10 Model 7800 rear
hub is substantially different from any other Shimano hub - 8, 9 or 10.


For example, DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub, looks almost identical to the
current Campy 9/10 rear hub (from 2000-2006):


http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...e/EV/bikecompo...
EV-FH-7800-2252_v1_m56577569830608915.pdf


In contrast, all other Shimano rear hubs, from 8, 9, and 10 are more like
this:


http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...e/EV/bikecompo...
EV-FH-7700-1654_v1_m56577569830610236.pdf


Notice the different in ball bearing placement on the right, drive side.


The best bet for your friend is to either run 10 speed drive train and use
the DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub. Or just get any other Shimano rear hub and
use 8, 9 or 10. Good Luck!


Thanks for that answer. Makes sense. But I wonder why they changed it? I
thought the old design was considered superior to freewheels largely
because of the outboard bearings.


Cuz whern they stop making 7700 rear hubs and your 7700 hub goes
south, no parts, gotta have DA..gotta upgrade to 10s to have DA-
marketing-


This is interesting. Has Shimano stopped making the 7700 rear hub or
parts for it?


Stoppedf making the 7700 front and rear hub about 3 years ago...parts
are still available but soon....

I have 2 DA 9 7700 rear hubs. I had to replaced a crack cone once (it
was expensive - like over $20!) Other than that, I just replace the
1/4" ball bearings periodically and put a little oil in the freehub
body. What else needs to be replaced?


By not making a DA hub 8/9/10s compatible, even tho they could means
they want ya to upgraqde


 




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