Cleat spacing

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart one's feet should be
when clipped in (spacing between feet). I am female and use Speedplay
pedals. I have played around with moving my feet further apart and closer,
but I really have no idea how far apart they should be. I am having a
little bit of knee pain in both knees to the inside and at the top of the
kneecap (kind of at the base of the VMO). Any suggestions would be helpful.
(I already have good saddle height and I think fore/aft cleat placement is
good).

Thanks,
Cat

Cat Dailey wrote:
Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart one's feet
should be when clipped in (spacing between feet). I am female and
use Speedplay pedals. I have played around with moving my feet
further apart and closer, but I really have no idea how far apart
they should be. I am having a little bit of knee pain in both knees
to the inside and at the top of the kneecap (kind of at the base of
the VMO). Any suggestions would be helpful. (I already have good
saddle height and I think fore/aft cleat placement is good).

Thanks,
Cat

A good place to have your feet is straight below your knees. Personally I
pronate so I have special insoles to get my knees right above my feet.
Are you sure saddle height is good? Pain in the front of the keecap usually
means your saddle is a little bit low.
Do you have free float on your cleats? You might want to experiment with the
angle your foot is clipped in.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

"Per Elmsäter" wrote in message
...
Cat Dailey wrote:
Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart one's feet
should be when clipped in (spacing between feet). I am female and
use Speedplay pedals. I have played around with moving my feet
further apart and closer, but I really have no idea how far apart
they should be. I am having a little bit of knee pain in both knees
to the inside and at the top of the kneecap (kind of at the base of
the VMO). Any suggestions would be helpful. (I already have good
saddle height and I think fore/aft cleat placement is good).

Thanks,
Cat

A good place to have your feet is straight below your knees. Personally I
pronate so I have special insoles to get my knees right above my feet.
Are you sure saddle height is good? Pain in the front of the keecap
usually
means your saddle is a little bit low.
Do you have free float on your cleats? You might want to experiment with
the
angle your foot is clipped in.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.


I don't get that "straight below your knees" ; My knees are slightly
drawn in (towards the top tube) when I pedal, so how does that affect cleat
placement? And my saddle height is spot on. Also, speedplays are free
float, so no worries about angle of cleat placement.

Cat

Cat Dailey wrote:

I don't get that "straight below your knees" ; My knees are
slightly drawn in (towards the top tube) when I pedal, so how does
that affect cleat placement? And my saddle height is spot on. Also,
speedplays are free float, so no worries about angle of cleat
placement.

Cat


How do you know your saddle height is spot on? Will raising it 5 mm make
your hips rock? If not then it may still be too low.

My knees were too far drawn in towards the toptube, especially the right
knee and especially when hammering. It was the same when running, a
pronounced pronation. I put insoles in my shoes to correct for this and my
knees came out from the toptube and started pushing straight down on my
feet. I didn't have any knee discomfort and may never have had any. However
it seems to me my average Wattage has gone up a little bit. I'm definitely
putting out a more balanced Left-Right wattage today. I use a Polar S720
Power Meter.

Having your knees draw towards the toptube may or may not hurt your knees.
Lots and lots of cyclists do that. I checked on the pro peloton on TV when I
was going through these changes and many have their knees very tight to the
toptube. Maybe they think it's aero or maybe they are just built that way???
Anyways it may be worth your time to consider your position in this respect.

Another reason for knee pain of course is pushing big gears at a low
cadence.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

"Per Elmsäter" wrote in message
...
Cat Dailey wrote:

I don't get that "straight below your knees" ; My knees are
slightly drawn in (towards the top tube) when I pedal, so how does
that affect cleat placement? And my saddle height is spot on. Also,
speedplays are free float, so no worries about angle of cleat
placement.

Cat


How do you know your saddle height is spot on? Will raising it 5 mm make
your hips rock? If not then it may still be too low.

I had my greater trochanter height from the floor in socks measured by a
competent physical therapist. Then I measured the distance from the top of
the pedal in a horizontal position with the crank in it's lowest position
aligned with the seattube, to the top of the saddle where I sit. The
distance is exactly 90.5 cm, which corresponds exactly to my trochanter
height.


My knees were too far drawn in towards the toptube, especially the right
knee and especially when hammering. It was the same when running, a
pronounced pronation. I put insoles in my shoes to correct for this and my
knees came out from the toptube and started pushing straight down on my
feet. I didn't have any knee discomfort and may never have had any.
However
it seems to me my average Wattage has gone up a little bit. I'm definitely
putting out a more balanced Left-Right wattage today. I use a Polar S720
Power Meter.

Having your knees draw towards the toptube may or may not hurt your knees.
Lots and lots of cyclists do that. I checked on the pro peloton on TV when
I
was going through these changes and many have their knees very tight to
the
toptube. Maybe they think it's aero or maybe they are just built that
way???
Anyways it may be worth your time to consider your position in this
respect.

Don't forget that I am female. We have a much greater angle between our hip
socket and knees than men do. That's why I made sure to point out that I
was a girl. (In other words, our knees don't line up directly under our
hips. We have a larger angle (Q angle?) than men.)


Another reason for knee pain of course is pushing big gears at a low
cadence.

--

No... I am a spinner for sure.

Cat

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 08:22:55 -0400, "Cat Dailey" wrote:

Don't forget that I am female. We have a much greater angle between our hip
socket and knees than men do. That's why I made sure to point out that I
was a girl. (In other words, our knees don't line up directly under our
hips. We have a larger angle (Q angle?) than men.)


Another reason for knee pain of course is pushing big gears at a low
cadence.

--

No... I am a spinner for sure.

Cat

It might be worth it to search google groups for 'knee pain' in this newsgroup since
there have been several 'success stories' of knee pain ameliorated.

-B

Cat Dailey wrote:
"Per Elmsäter" wrote in message
...
Cat Dailey wrote:

I don't get that "straight below your knees" ; My knees are
slightly drawn in (towards the top tube) when I pedal, so how does
that affect cleat placement? And my saddle height is spot on.
Also, speedplays are free float, so no worries about angle of cleat
placement.

Cat


How do you know your saddle height is spot on? Will raising it 5 mm
make your hips rock? If not then it may still be too low.

I had my greater trochanter height from the floor in socks measured
by a competent physical therapist. Then I measured the distance from
the top of the pedal in a horizontal position with the crank in it's
lowest position aligned with the seattube, to the top of the saddle
where I sit. The distance is exactly 90.5 cm, which corresponds
exactly to my trochanter height.


Sounds like you have everything pretty much covered.
However I couldn't quite follow your measuring technique. One thing that I
did notice though was that the measurements were done wearing socks. You
might need to add the added height of your shoes and cleats.

One very good way of knowing that you are in the ballpark.
If possible put your bike on a trainer.
Put a friend behind you that keeps an eye on your hipbones.
Raise your saddle until your hipbones start moving up and down.
Lower you saddle until they stop. This should only be maybe 3-5 mm.
From here you are in the ballpark and further adjustments should be made no
more than 3mm at a time.

If you don't have a trainer or a friend available. Get out on the road and
put a bunch of small change in the two side pockets on your jersey. Raise
your saddle until the change start jingling. Lower until quiet.

I think you're getting the picture now. What I'm really trying to say is
that there are many very technical ways to measure your saddle height and
most of them puts you into the ballpark if you belong to the norm. Either
bodybuild or pedaling technique. If for instance you pedal with your toes
pointed extremely straight down or have very thick soles and cleats, then
the method of measuring you have used will definitely put your saddle too
low.

Of course all of your problems may also be due to upping your mileage too
much too fast.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

"Per Elmsäter" wrote in message
...
Cat Dailey wrote:
"Per Elmsäter" wrote in message
...
Cat Dailey wrote:

I don't get that "straight below your knees" ; My knees are
slightly drawn in (towards the top tube) when I pedal, so how does
that affect cleat placement? And my saddle height is spot on.
Also, speedplays are free float, so no worries about angle of cleat
placement.

Cat


How do you know your saddle height is spot on? Will raising it 5 mm
make your hips rock? If not then it may still be too low.

I had my greater trochanter height from the floor in socks measured
by a competent physical therapist. Then I measured the distance from
the top of the pedal in a horizontal position with the crank in it's
lowest position aligned with the seattube, to the top of the saddle
where I sit. The distance is exactly 90.5 cm, which corresponds
exactly to my trochanter height.


Sounds like you have everything pretty much covered.
However I couldn't quite follow your measuring technique. One thing that I
did notice though was that the measurements were done wearing socks. You
might need to add the added height of your shoes and cleats.

One very good way of knowing that you are in the ballpark.
If possible put your bike on a trainer.
Put a friend behind you that keeps an eye on your hipbones.
Raise your saddle until your hipbones start moving up and down.
Lower you saddle until they stop. This should only be maybe 3-5 mm.
From here you are in the ballpark and further adjustments should be made
no
more than 3mm at a time.

If you don't have a trainer or a friend available. Get out on the road and
put a bunch of small change in the two side pockets on your jersey. Raise
your saddle until the change start jingling. Lower until quiet.

I think you're getting the picture now. What I'm really trying to say is
that there are many very technical ways to measure your saddle height and
most of them puts you into the ballpark if you belong to the norm. Either
bodybuild or pedaling technique. If for instance you pedal with your toes
pointed extremely straight down or have very thick soles and cleats, then
the method of measuring you have used will definitely put your saddle too
low.

Of course all of your problems may also be due to upping your mileage too
much too fast.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.



Thanks Perre for taking the time to reply. However, if you do greater
trochanter height, it is much simpler and way more foolproof than the old
"rocking hips" routine. This measurement is done in stocking feet.

None of this answers my original question of how far apart my feet should be
;

Cat

"Cat Dailey" wrote in message
...

"Per Elmsäter" wrote in message
...
Cat Dailey wrote:
"Per Elmsäter" wrote in message
...
Cat Dailey wrote:

I don't get that "straight below your knees" ; My knees are
slightly drawn in (towards the top tube) when I pedal, so how does
that affect cleat placement? And my saddle height is spot on.
Also, speedplays are free float, so no worries about angle of cleat
placement.

Cat


How do you know your saddle height is spot on? Will raising it 5 mm
make your hips rock? If not then it may still be too low.

I had my greater trochanter height from the floor in socks measured
by a competent physical therapist. Then I measured the distance from
the top of the pedal in a horizontal position with the crank in it's
lowest position aligned with the seattube, to the top of the saddle
where I sit. The distance is exactly 90.5 cm, which corresponds
exactly to my trochanter height.


Sounds like you have everything pretty much covered.
However I couldn't quite follow your measuring technique. One thing that
I
did notice though was that the measurements were done wearing socks. You
might need to add the added height of your shoes and cleats.

One very good way of knowing that you are in the ballpark.
If possible put your bike on a trainer.
Put a friend behind you that keeps an eye on your hipbones.
Raise your saddle until your hipbones start moving up and down.
Lower you saddle until they stop. This should only be maybe 3-5 mm.
From here you are in the ballpark and further adjustments should be made
no
more than 3mm at a time.

If you don't have a trainer or a friend available. Get out on the road
and
put a bunch of small change in the two side pockets on your jersey.
Raise
your saddle until the change start jingling. Lower until quiet.

I think you're getting the picture now. What I'm really trying to say is
that there are many very technical ways to measure your saddle height
and
most of them puts you into the ballpark if you belong to the norm.
Either
bodybuild or pedaling technique. If for instance you pedal with your
toes
pointed extremely straight down or have very thick soles and cleats,
then
the method of measuring you have used will definitely put your saddle
too
low.

Of course all of your problems may also be due to upping your mileage
too
much too fast.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.



Thanks Perre for taking the time to reply. However, if you do greater
trochanter height, it is much simpler and way more foolproof than the old
"rocking hips" routine. This measurement is done in stocking feet.

None of this answers my original question of how far apart my feet should
be
;

Cat

I cannot agree that your method of measuring seat height is better than the
rocking hips method. I started out doing a technical way of seat height
adjustment and found that my knees hurt. I adjusted my seat higher and a
little further back than the technical method and my knee problems are gone.
As far as how far your feet are apart, I don't understand. I put my cleats
in a position that was comfortable on my feet (middle of the balls worked
for me). I suggest making very small adjustments.

Once more your technical method most likely doesn't take in enough
consideration of you angle of your feet, therefore it is just a ballpark
height, IMHO.

I personally feel your seat is too low and I know that is not what you want
to hear, but I am going to tell you anyway.

Curt

Cat Dailey wrote:

Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart one's feet should be
when clipped in (spacing between feet). I am female and use Speedplay
pedals. I have played around with moving my feet further apart and closer,
but I really have no idea how far apart they should be.

Cat, the term you're referring to is "tread" or more commonly "Q
factor":

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cranks.html#tread

What's an ideal Q factor? I have no idea, but I've heard that less
is better. Not very helpful, is it?

I am having a
little bit of knee pain in both knees to the inside and at the top of the
kneecap (kind of at the base of the VMO). Any suggestions would be helpful.

How about the rotation of the cleat? Most people's feet turn out a
little naturally, so the cleat needs to accommodate this rotation.
If you sit on a table and let your feet dangle, this should show you
your natural rotation. My right foot rotates outwards, so a cleat
that doesn't take this into account makes the inside of my knee sore.

--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/