Titanium vs Carbon Fiber

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 7:13:44 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 4:47:13 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 5/14/2021 9:29 AM, Mark cleary wrote:

snip
I have a WIlier CF nice bike rides great. I bought a Habanero Titanium in March of 2017. Since then I might have road the Wilier 10 times and no comparison to Ti. The Ti is a silent giant. The frame makes no noise and airflow sound like CF. It has a nice stable feeling yet not dull and has exactly zero frame flex at least with me. It is a joy to ride. CF has its place but I am going Ti from now on and I always get a thread BB. No press fits for me.
Carbon fiber frames are very cheap to manufacture despite their
relatively high price (which has come down significantly). Titanium is a
lot more expensive to manufacture, both for materials and labor. Most of
the mass-produced titanium frames come out of Taiwan where labor is a
lot higher cost than Mainland China.

The bottom line is that nearly everyone wants a titanium frame bicycle
but not many people are willing to spend that much money.
Carbon Fiber Bikes are EXTREMELY labor oriented since they are cut out of 1,000's of pieces of pre-preg and then they have to be aligned on the jig exactly. The prices aren't really coming down, China which gets labor almost for free, can sell for a lot less so that is competition that the open market will not be able to stand and will fold except for the largest companies that can use sheer volume to make up for the lower profit margins.

Titanium bikes are almost labor free and you're paying for the tubing and the highly skilled welder.

May I suggest a class in economics? You're already past that stage since you're a socialist.

My Habanero Team Issue Nuevo with all Shimano 6800 and Shimano wheels ( the cheaper ones), and a full Ritchey cockpit came in a $3000 shipped to my house 4 years ago. It was cheaper than any equivalent CF equipped bike I could have bought from any of the the LBS by I guessing at least $200-300. I am sure there are plenty of decent LBS but the true ones that can do everything and get anything and serve everyone are rare. I dare say the place like Andrew run are few and far between. Right now if you go into the local Spec dealer the price you are going to pay for a bike, if you can get one is going to be $$$$. Better in my opinion to find a Ti frame or get a good steel one and then build it yourself or send it through Andrew. My Ti in 58 cm with no pedals weighs under 18 pounds by just a hair.

Deacon Mark

On 5/16/2021 9:58 AM, Mark cleary wrote:

snip

My Habanero Team Issue Nuevo with all Shimano 6800 and Shimano wheels ( the cheaper ones), and a full Ritchey cockpit came in a $3000 shipped to my house 4 years ago. It was cheaper than any equivalent CF equipped bike I could have bought from any of the the LBS by I guessing at least $200-300. I am sure there are plenty of decent LBS but the true ones that can do everything and get anything and serve everyone are rare. I dare say the place like Andrew run are few and far between. Right now if you go into the local Spec dealer the price you are going to pay for a bike, if you can get one is going to be $$$$. Better in my opinion to find a Ti frame or get a good steel one and then build it yourself or send it through Andrew. My Ti in 58 cm with no pedals weighs under 18 pounds by just a hair.

I think you'll find that things have changed in the past four years.
Carbon-fiber frames have become significantly less expensive as volumes
from China have increased and production techniques have been automated.

Sure you can still pay a lot for a complete CF bicycle, with a lifetime
warranty to the original purchaser, but you don't have to.

With titanium you have the high cost of the basic material and the labor
cost of an experienced low-volume frame builder, neither of which you
have with mass-produced carbon-fiber frames.

Habanero is indeed a good deal.

On Sun, 16 May 2021 14:07:55 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/16/2021 9:58 AM, Mark cleary wrote:

snip

My Habanero Team Issue Nuevo with all Shimano 6800 and Shimano wheels ( the cheaper ones), and a full Ritchey cockpit came in a $3000 shipped to my house 4 years ago. It was cheaper than any equivalent CF equipped bike I could have bought from any of the the LBS by I guessing at least $200-300. I am sure there are plenty of decent LBS but the true ones that can do everything and get anything and serve everyone are rare. I dare say the place like Andrew run are few and far between. Right now if you go into the local Spec dealer the price you are going to pay for a bike, if you can get one is going to be $$$$. Better in my opinion to find a Ti frame or get a good steel one and then build it yourself or send it through Andrew. My Ti in 58 cm with no pedals weighs under 18 pounds by just a hair.

I think you'll find that things have changed in the past four years.
Carbon-fiber frames have become significantly less expensive as volumes
from China have increased and production techniques have been automated.

Sure you can still pay a lot for a complete CF bicycle, with a lifetime
warranty to the original purchaser, but you don't have to.

With titanium you have the high cost of the basic material and the labor
cost of an experienced low-volume frame builder, neither of which you
have with mass-produced carbon-fiber frames.

Habanero is indeed a good deal.

Probably 10 years ago I saw CF bicycles for sale in Singapore for in
the neighborhood of $1,000 Sing Dollars, maybe about $1.30 to the U.S.
dollar at the time. No name and no guarantee, but still :-)

Re welding titanium - when I qualified many years ago we welded
titanium in an inert atmosphere box but I read that now days there are
much better methods. It may be that with modern methods - Tip Tig for
example - titanium welding might possibly be automated partially or
perhaps fully.
--
Cheers,

John B.