Torx vs Allen

I still haven't ascertained what in the hell this argument is about. I have NEVER stripped an Allen head fitting. Allen heads were made to replace flathead or Phillips head screw fitting which are easy to strip and they have always done far more than an adequate job. You can go into any hardware store and buy several different types of Allen heads made of stainless steel

Torx fittings are useful only on cheap aluminum bolts and screws that can be easily stripped and since fittings on bicycles are largely serviced by their owners, there is NO reason to attempt to save an almost undetectable amount of weight that is more than offset by the water bottle cages. Even if every bolt and screw on the bike is replaced with an aluminum Torx fitting.

Op vrijdag 21 mei 2021 om 18:34:35 UTC+2 schreef :
I still haven't ascertained what in the hell this argument is about. I have NEVER stripped an Allen head fitting. Allen heads were made to replace flathead or Phillips head screw fitting which are easy to strip and they have always done far more than an adequate job. You can go into any hardware store and buy several different types of Allen heads made of stainless steel

Torx fittings are useful only on cheap aluminum bolts and screws that can be easily stripped and since fittings on bicycles are largely serviced by their owners, there is NO reason to attempt to save an almost undetectable amount of weight that is more than offset by the water bottle cages. Even if every bolt and screw on the bike is replaced with an aluminum Torx fitting.


It is not about weight. Car manufacturers disagree with you. No allen bolts there.

Lou

On 5/21/2021 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I still haven't ascertained what in the hell this argument is about. I have NEVER stripped an Allen head fitting. Allen heads were made to replace flathead or Phillips head screw fitting which are easy to strip and they have always done far more than an adequate job. You can go into any hardware store and buy several different types of Allen heads made of stainless steel

Torx fittings are useful only on cheap aluminum bolts and screws that can be easily stripped and since fittings on bicycles are largely serviced by their owners, there is NO reason to attempt to save an almost undetectable amount of weight that is more than offset by the water bottle cages. Even if every bolt and screw on the bike is replaced with an aluminum Torx fitting.



We charge real money to remove stuck/stripped head allen
fasteners with some regularity. (and damaged Philips/slotted
screws for that matter)

Torx is a more positive torque design and especially in
aluminum. See also auto and electronic applications which
are common now.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/21/2021 10:12 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

We charge real money to remove stuck/stripped head allen fasteners with
some regularity. (and damaged Philips/slotted screws for that matter)

I don't think some people realize that stripped Allen head fasteners are
an issue. Sometimes people use worn Allen wrenches which strip the
heads, but sometimes the torque necessary is just too great for the
fastener head.

Torx is a more positive torque design and especially in aluminum.Â* See
also auto and electronic applications which are common now.

Tom can learn about Torx he
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx#Principles_of_operation

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 10:21:20 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 5/21/2021 10:12 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip
We charge real money to remove stuck/stripped head allen fasteners with
some regularity. (and damaged Philips/slotted screws for that matter)
I don't think some people realize that stripped Allen head fasteners are
an issue. Sometimes people use worn Allen wrenches which strip the
heads, but sometimes the torque necessary is just too great for the
fastener head.
Torx is a more positive torque design and especially in aluminum. See
also auto and electronic applications which are common now.
Tom can learn about Torx he
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx#Principles_of_operation

People frequently round the hex heads on Shimano crank pinch bolts. I've done that and had to drill the head and get the screw out with a screw extractor. https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussi...crank-arm-bolt Maybe those pinch bolts should be Torx, but then again, maybe they should be more robust. Any head on a M6 screw should be able to withstand 12nm without rounding.

I think the choice between Torx and standard hex heads makes more of a difference with higher torque applications, but for most bicycle fasteners, hex head works fine. For example, Shimano lever anchor bolts are standard hex head, and I've never had a problem with those. Same goes with my pedals. I transmit a lot of torque through a 10mm hex pedal wrench. A lot of hex heads do get rounded through user error because the tool is not inserted deep enough or the tool is damaged, but I don't know if Torx remedies that problem. If so, it would be a reason for using Torx even with low torque fasteners. Otherwise, I'm content with hex in most places.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 5/21/2021 1:04 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 10:21:20 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 5/21/2021 10:12 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip
We charge real money to remove stuck/stripped head allen fasteners with
some regularity. (and damaged Philips/slotted screws for that matter)
I don't think some people realize that stripped Allen head fasteners are
an issue. Sometimes people use worn Allen wrenches which strip the
heads, but sometimes the torque necessary is just too great for the
fastener head.
Torx is a more positive torque design and especially in aluminum. See
also auto and electronic applications which are common now.
Tom can learn about Torx he
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx#Principles_of_operation

People frequently round the hex heads on Shimano crank pinch bolts. I've done that and had to drill the head and get the screw out with a screw extractor. https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussi...crank-arm-bolt Maybe those pinch bolts should be Torx, but then again, maybe they should be more robust. Any head on a M6 screw should be able to withstand 12nm without rounding.

I think the choice between Torx and standard hex heads makes more of a difference with higher torque applications, but for most bicycle fasteners, hex head works fine. For example, Shimano lever anchor bolts are standard hex head, and I've never had a problem with those. Same goes with my pedals. I transmit a lot of torque through a 10mm hex pedal wrench. A lot of hex heads do get rounded through user error because the tool is not inserted deep enough or the tool is damaged, but I don't know if Torx remedies that problem. If so, it would be a reason for using Torx even with low torque fasteners. Otherwise, I'm content with hex in most places.

-- Jay Beattie.




The Shimano crank pinch bolts, as with many Shimano
fasteners, have a larger allen broach than the DIN spec for
that bolt size. Not a crisis but it's true nonetheless.

WHere Torx shines is in aluminum. A hardened steel allen
sleeve for a Shimano lever (or the prior steel Campagnolo
sleeve) works well. To lighten the lever with an aluminum
fastener, the change to Torx is good design practice.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 21/05/2021 18:34, Tom Kunich wrote:
I still haven't ascertained what in the hell this argument is about.
I have NEVER stripped an Allen head fitting. Allen heads were made to
replace flathead or Phillips head screw fitting which are easy to
strip and they have always done far more than an adequate job. You
can go into any hardware store and buy several different types of
Allen heads made of stainless steel

Torx fittings are useful only on cheap aluminum bolts and screws that
can be easily stripped and since fittings on bicycles are largely
serviced by their owners, there is NO reason to attempt to save an
almost undetectable amount of weight that is more than offset by the
water bottle cages. Even if every bolt and screw on the bike is
replaced with an aluminum Torx fitting.

Just joining in the rounded hex nut issue. First port of call hammer in
a Torx bit, sometimes works. If you get forced down the drill route,
use a left handed drill, again sometimes you get lucky before you snap
the stud extractor :-(

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 4:15:51 PM UTC-7, Tosspot wrote:
On 21/05/2021 18:34, Tom Kunich wrote:
I still haven't ascertained what in the hell this argument is about.
I have NEVER stripped an Allen head fitting. Allen heads were made to
replace flathead or Phillips head screw fitting which are easy to
strip and they have always done far more than an adequate job. You
can go into any hardware store and buy several different types of
Allen heads made of stainless steel

Torx fittings are useful only on cheap aluminum bolts and screws that
can be easily stripped and since fittings on bicycles are largely
serviced by their owners, there is NO reason to attempt to save an
almost undetectable amount of weight that is more than offset by the
water bottle cages. Even if every bolt and screw on the bike is
replaced with an aluminum Torx fitting.
Just joining in the rounded hex nut issue. First port of call hammer in
a Torx bit, sometimes works. If you get forced down the drill route,
use a left handed drill, again sometimes you get lucky before you snap
the stud extractor :-(
I simply cannot understand what everyone is talking about I have NEVER rounded out an Allen socket that was so bad that I could not push the Allen wrench in deeper and still remove it.

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 12:13:06 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/21/2021 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I still haven't ascertained what in the hell this argument is about. I have NEVER stripped an Allen head fitting. Allen heads were made to replace flathead or Phillips head screw fitting which are easy to strip and they have always done far more than an adequate job. You can go into any hardware store and buy several different types of Allen heads made of stainless steel

Torx fittings are useful only on cheap aluminum bolts and screws that can be easily stripped and since fittings on bicycles are largely serviced by their owners, there is NO reason to attempt to save an almost undetectable amount of weight that is more than offset by the water bottle cages. Even if every bolt and screw on the bike is replaced with an aluminum Torx fitting.

We charge real money to remove stuck/stripped head allen
fasteners with some regularity. (and damaged Philips/slotted
screws for that matter)

Torx is a more positive torque design and especially in
aluminum. See also auto and electronic applications which
are common now.


Recently helped install a pressure treated deck on a house. We used Torx head screws for all of the wood fastening. Except the board carrying the joist carriers which we bolted onto the side of the house with 1/2" bolts. I've always used Phillips screws for wood in the past. Drywall screws of varying lengths. 3/4" to 3". It was strange using T25 screws in wood. But the engagement of the driver and screw was positive. No cam out. I'm accustomed to that with Phillips and wood so predrill the hole when there is any chance of not going in all the way. Of course with installing drywall sheets on 2x4 studs, the cam out is a benefit.






--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 21 May 2021 11:04:14 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 10:21:20 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 5/21/2021 10:12 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip
We charge real money to remove stuck/stripped head allen fasteners with
some regularity. (and damaged Philips/slotted screws for that matter)
I don't think some people realize that stripped Allen head fasteners are
an issue. Sometimes people use worn Allen wrenches which strip the
heads, but sometimes the torque necessary is just too great for the
fastener head.
Torx is a more positive torque design and especially in aluminum. See
also auto and electronic applications which are common now.
Tom can learn about Torx he
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx#Principles_of_operation

People frequently round the hex heads on Shimano crank pinch bolts.
I've done that and had to drill the head and get the screw out with a
screw extractor.
https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussi...crank-arm-bolt
Maybe those pinch bolts should be Torx, but then again, maybe they
should be more robust. Any head on a M6 screw should be able to
withstand 12nm without rounding.

Standard torque on a grade 8.8 (sometimes referred to as "class) 6mm,
coarse thread, bolt is 8 Nm, grade 10.9 is 12 Nm and grade 12.9 is 14
Nm
https://www.grampianfasteners.com/fi...e_Settings.pdf
I don't work in Nm but a 14 Nm torque is 10 ft lbs of torque which
isn't very tight - think 10 lb bag of sugar on a 1 foot wrench. In my
experience, and I spent 10 years of my life removing broken screws and
bolts from airplanes :-), over tightening is the primary cause of
stuck bolts.


I think the choice between Torx and standard hex heads makes more of a difference with higher torque applications, but for most bicycle fasteners, hex head works fine. For example, Shimano lever anchor bolts are standard hex head, and I've never had a problem with those. Same goes with my pedals. I transmit a lot of torque through a 10mm hex pedal wrench. A lot of hex heads do get rounded through user error because the tool is not inserted deep enough or the tool is damaged, but I don't know if Torx remedies that problem. If so, it would be a reason for using Torx even with low torque fasteners. Otherwise, I'm content with hex in most places.

-- Jay Beattie.


--
Cheers,

John B.