Torx vs Allen

On Fri, 21 May 2021 09:34:32 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

I have NEVER stripped an Allen head fitting.

Ever wonder why nobody shoves an Allen head driver into an electric
driver tool and uses it in the same manner as Torx screws? Even for
removing socket head screws, the driver will round off the screw,
driver, or both. Using power to drive a socket head screw is
guaranteed to round the screw, driver, or both.

Hint: Torx is stronger than Allen/hex/socket-head/whatever

To be fair, I've trashed a few Torx drivers and screw heads. For
example, a small 5 lb box of 3in #9 deck screws contains 460 screws
and is supplied with a single T25 bit. I usually go through about 100
screws before the worn T25 bit becomes a problem and I need a
replacement. With a hardened bit, maybe 150 screws.

--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 5/21/2021 8:59 PM, wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 12:13:06 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/21/2021 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I still haven't ascertained what in the hell this argument is about. I have NEVER stripped an Allen head fitting. Allen heads were made to replace flathead or Phillips head screw fitting which are easy to strip and they have always done far more than an adequate job. You can go into any hardware store and buy several different types of Allen heads made of stainless steel

Torx fittings are useful only on cheap aluminum bolts and screws that can be easily stripped and since fittings on bicycles are largely serviced by their owners, there is NO reason to attempt to save an almost undetectable amount of weight that is more than offset by the water bottle cages. Even if every bolt and screw on the bike is replaced with an aluminum Torx fitting.

We charge real money to remove stuck/stripped head allen
fasteners with some regularity. (and damaged Philips/slotted
screws for that matter)

Torx is a more positive torque design and especially in
aluminum. See also auto and electronic applications which
are common now.


Recently helped install a pressure treated deck on a house. We used Torx head screws for all of the wood fastening. Except the board carrying the joist carriers which we bolted onto the side of the house with 1/2" bolts. I've always used Phillips screws for wood in the past. Drywall screws of varying lengths. 3/4" to 3". It was strange using T25 screws in wood. But the engagement of the driver and screw was positive. No cam out. I'm accustomed to that with Phillips and wood so predrill the hole when there is any chance of not going in all the way. Of course with installing drywall sheets on 2x4 studs, the cam out is a benefit.





An excellent point for drywall and a prime feature of the
Phillips patent but doesn't have much application to bicycle
assembly & maintenance.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 7:55:07 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/21/2021 8:59 PM, wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 12:13:06 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/21/2021 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I still haven't ascertained what in the hell this argument is about. I have NEVER stripped an Allen head fitting. Allen heads were made to replace flathead or Phillips head screw fitting which are easy to strip and they have always done far more than an adequate job. You can go into any hardware store and buy several different types of Allen heads made of stainless steel

Torx fittings are useful only on cheap aluminum bolts and screws that can be easily stripped and since fittings on bicycles are largely serviced by their owners, there is NO reason to attempt to save an almost undetectable amount of weight that is more than offset by the water bottle cages. Even if every bolt and screw on the bike is replaced with an aluminum Torx fitting.

We charge real money to remove stuck/stripped head allen
fasteners with some regularity. (and damaged Philips/slotted
screws for that matter)

Torx is a more positive torque design and especially in
aluminum. See also auto and electronic applications which
are common now.


Recently helped install a pressure treated deck on a house. We used Torx head screws for all of the wood fastening. Except the board carrying the joist carriers which we bolted onto the side of the house with 1/2" bolts. I've always used Phillips screws for wood in the past. Drywall screws of varying lengths. 3/4" to 3". It was strange using T25 screws in wood. But the engagement of the driver and screw was positive. No cam out. I'm accustomed to that with Phillips and wood so predrill the hole when there is any chance of not going in all the way. Of course with installing drywall sheets on 2x4 studs, the cam out is a benefit.




An excellent point for drywall and a prime feature of the
Phillips patent but doesn't have much application to bicycle
assembly & maintenance.

I got my long arm Torx wrenches here today and I tightened the fittings on the shifters to the handlebar and EXACTLY like I said, the edges of the Torx wrench was attempting to cut through the hoods at the the intersection of the slot and the connector. I was expecting it and was careful so that it didn't succeed in actually cutting through but it surely was trying.

Andrew's point that in aluminum fittings Torx is a superior connector I expect is correct. But what is the weight difference between a chromed bronze 6 mm Allen and the Torx 25 Aluminum fitting?

On 5/24/2021 11:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 7:55:07 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/21/2021 8:59 PM, wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 12:13:06 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/21/2021 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I still haven't ascertained what in the hell this argument is about. I have NEVER stripped an Allen head fitting. Allen heads were made to replace flathead or Phillips head screw fitting which are easy to strip and they have always done far more than an adequate job. You can go into any hardware store and buy several different types of Allen heads made of stainless steel

Torx fittings are useful only on cheap aluminum bolts and screws that can be easily stripped and since fittings on bicycles are largely serviced by their owners, there is NO reason to attempt to save an almost undetectable amount of weight that is more than offset by the water bottle cages. Even if every bolt and screw on the bike is replaced with an aluminum Torx fitting.

We charge real money to remove stuck/stripped head allen
fasteners with some regularity. (and damaged Philips/slotted
screws for that matter)

Torx is a more positive torque design and especially in
aluminum. See also auto and electronic applications which
are common now.


Recently helped install a pressure treated deck on a house. We used Torx head screws for all of the wood fastening. Except the board carrying the joist carriers which we bolted onto the side of the house with 1/2" bolts. I've always used Phillips screws for wood in the past. Drywall screws of varying lengths. 3/4" to 3". It was strange using T25 screws in wood. But the engagement of the driver and screw was positive. No cam out. I'm accustomed to that with Phillips and wood so predrill the hole when there is any chance of not going in all the way. Of course with installing drywall sheets on 2x4 studs, the cam out is a benefit.




An excellent point for drywall and a prime feature of the
Phillips patent but doesn't have much application to bicycle
assembly & maintenance.

I got my long arm Torx wrenches here today and I tightened the fittings on the shifters to the handlebar and EXACTLY like I said, the edges of the Torx wrench was attempting to cut through the hoods at the the intersection of the slot and the connector. I was expecting it and was careful so that it didn't succeed in actually cutting through but it surely was trying.

Andrew's point that in aluminum fittings Torx is a superior connector I expect is correct. But what is the weight difference between a chromed bronze 6 mm Allen and the Torx 25 Aluminum fitting?


Able Assistant with electronic gram scale says a Campagnolo
current aluminum Torx lever nut is 1.4g. The ancient 2006
CrMo Allen version is 3.2g.

So it's either a huge 44% reduction in weight or just a mere
1.8g.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, May 24, 2021 at 12:44:29 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/24/2021 11:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 7:55:07 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/21/2021 8:59 PM, wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 12:13:06 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/21/2021 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I still haven't ascertained what in the hell this argument is about.. I have NEVER stripped an Allen head fitting. Allen heads were made to replace flathead or Phillips head screw fitting which are easy to strip and they have always done far more than an adequate job. You can go into any hardware store and buy several different types of Allen heads made of stainless steel

Torx fittings are useful only on cheap aluminum bolts and screws that can be easily stripped and since fittings on bicycles are largely serviced by their owners, there is NO reason to attempt to save an almost undetectable amount of weight that is more than offset by the water bottle cages. Even if every bolt and screw on the bike is replaced with an aluminum Torx fitting.

We charge real money to remove stuck/stripped head allen
fasteners with some regularity. (and damaged Philips/slotted
screws for that matter)

Torx is a more positive torque design and especially in
aluminum. See also auto and electronic applications which
are common now.


Recently helped install a pressure treated deck on a house. We used Torx head screws for all of the wood fastening. Except the board carrying the joist carriers which we bolted onto the side of the house with 1/2" bolts.. I've always used Phillips screws for wood in the past. Drywall screws of varying lengths. 3/4" to 3". It was strange using T25 screws in wood. But the engagement of the driver and screw was positive. No cam out. I'm accustomed to that with Phillips and wood so predrill the hole when there is any chance of not going in all the way. Of course with installing drywall sheets on 2x4 studs, the cam out is a benefit.




An excellent point for drywall and a prime feature of the
Phillips patent but doesn't have much application to bicycle
assembly & maintenance.

I got my long arm Torx wrenches here today and I tightened the fittings on the shifters to the handlebar and EXACTLY like I said, the edges of the Torx wrench was attempting to cut through the hoods at the the intersection of the slot and the connector. I was expecting it and was careful so that it didn't succeed in actually cutting through but it surely was trying.

Andrew's point that in aluminum fittings Torx is a superior connector I expect is correct. But what is the weight difference between a chromed bronze 6 mm Allen and the Torx 25 Aluminum fitting?

Able Assistant with electronic gram scale says a Campagnolo
current aluminum Torx lever nut is 1.4g. The ancient 2006
CrMo Allen version is 3.2g.

So it's either a huge 44% reduction in weight or just a mere
1.8g.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

???????? 3.2 down to 1.4 is a 1.8 gram reduction. As you clearly state. But if you take 1.8 (reduction) divided by 3.2 (original weight), you get 56.25% Round down to 56%. So I would call this a 56% reduction in weight. Not a 44% reduction as you wrote. 1.4 is the weight of the aluminum nut. So it represents 44% of the weight of the steel nut. Or to make it more dramatic, you could say the steel nut is 2.29 TIMES as heavy!!!!!!!! Or the steel nut weighs 129% MORE than the aluminum nut!!!!!!! But as you state, it is "mere" 1.8 grams.

On 5/24/2021 6:10 PM, wrote:
On Monday, May 24, 2021 at 12:44:29 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/24/2021 11:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 7:55:07 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/21/2021 8:59 PM, wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 12:13:06 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/21/2021 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I still haven't ascertained what in the hell this argument is about. I have NEVER stripped an Allen head fitting. Allen heads were made to replace flathead or Phillips head screw fitting which are easy to strip and they have always done far more than an adequate job. You can go into any hardware store and buy several different types of Allen heads made of stainless steel

Torx fittings are useful only on cheap aluminum bolts and screws that can be easily stripped and since fittings on bicycles are largely serviced by their owners, there is NO reason to attempt to save an almost undetectable amount of weight that is more than offset by the water bottle cages. Even if every bolt and screw on the bike is replaced with an aluminum Torx fitting.

We charge real money to remove stuck/stripped head allen
fasteners with some regularity. (and damaged Philips/slotted
screws for that matter)

Torx is a more positive torque design and especially in
aluminum. See also auto and electronic applications which
are common now.


Recently helped install a pressure treated deck on a house. We used Torx head screws for all of the wood fastening. Except the board carrying the joist carriers which we bolted onto the side of the house with 1/2" bolts. I've always used Phillips screws for wood in the past. Drywall screws of varying lengths. 3/4" to 3". It was strange using T25 screws in wood. But the engagement of the driver and screw was positive. No cam out. I'm accustomed to that with Phillips and wood so predrill the hole when there is any chance of not going in all the way. Of course with installing drywall sheets on 2x4 studs, the cam out is a benefit.




An excellent point for drywall and a prime feature of the
Phillips patent but doesn't have much application to bicycle
assembly & maintenance.

I got my long arm Torx wrenches here today and I tightened the fittings on the shifters to the handlebar and EXACTLY like I said, the edges of the Torx wrench was attempting to cut through the hoods at the the intersection of the slot and the connector. I was expecting it and was careful so that it didn't succeed in actually cutting through but it surely was trying.

Andrew's point that in aluminum fittings Torx is a superior connector I expect is correct. But what is the weight difference between a chromed bronze 6 mm Allen and the Torx 25 Aluminum fitting?

Able Assistant with electronic gram scale says a Campagnolo
current aluminum Torx lever nut is 1.4g. The ancient 2006
CrMo Allen version is 3.2g.

So it's either a huge 44% reduction in weight or just a mere
1.8g.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

???????? 3.2 down to 1.4 is a 1.8 gram reduction. As you clearly state. But if you take 1.8 (reduction) divided by 3.2 (original weight), you get 56.25% Round down to 56%. So I would call this a 56% reduction in weight. Not a 44% reduction as you wrote. 1.4 is the weight of the aluminum nut. So it represents 44% of the weight of the steel nut. Or to make it more dramatic, you could say the steel nut is 2.29 TIMES as heavy!!!!!!!! Or the steel nut weighs 129% MORE than the aluminum nut!!!!!!! But as you state, it is "mere" 1.8 grams.


you're right I inverted. A 56$ savings.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Am 21.05.2021 um 19:21 schrieb sms:
On 5/21/2021 10:12 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

We charge real money to remove stuck/stripped head allen fasteners
with some regularity. (and damaged Philips/slotted screws for that
matter)

I don't think some people realize that stripped Allen head fasteners are
an issue. Sometimes people use worn Allen wrenches which strip the
heads, but sometimes the torque necessary is just too great for the
fastener head.

When my son borrowed my gravel bike, we had to change seat height twice
a week (and he was very worried that the saddle was too loose). He
managed to damage a fair number of Allen keys, luckily he only damaged
the bolt in the 'close' direction, so that opening the bolt was never an
issue. After a few months, I bought a quick-release to remove the problem.