When's it enough??

"Donald Munro" wrote in message
om...
Jim Flom wrote:
Scared the sh*t out of us (and I was a daily user back in the day).

The sermons must have been dis_jointed_.

They really went to pot.

Jim Flom wrote:
"Kyle Legate" wrote...
It was spiked, perhaps with a dusting of PCP. If the dealer gets his
supply from bikers it's likely to happen time to time. Unadulterated pot
will not promote psychosis, but bikers looking to supply the strongest
stuff in the city are prone to adding a little extra to the buds.

You're in BC, right? The only sure solution is to grow it yourself.

I'd be curious to see you substantiate the above, because I think you're
wrong.

A quick google search turns up lots of information, including:

http://www.cesar.umd.edu/cesar/pubs/pcp.pdf

http://www.drugfree.org/Portal/drug_guide/PCP
Specifically, the "how is it used?" section

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/001945.htm
"Some cases of severe delirium, hallucinations, and violence have also
been reported. Such cases should raise suspicion that the marijuana may
have been laced with another agent, such as PCP."

And many, many others.

Anecdotally, when I was living in the land of plenty I obtained a sample
once which produced significant feelings of agitation and panic, and
that was through ingesting a single hit from a pipe. Rigorous testing
alongside an independent sample proved that these feelings were
reproducible, even months apart, and attributed to that single batch.
Knowing that the supplier obtained his product through contacts within
the Hell's Angels I concluded that this particular sample was
contaminated with another drug, most likely PCP since a small quantity
of powder could go unnoticed on the sweet, sweet buds.

"Kyle Legate" wrote...

A quick google search turns up lots of information, including:

http://www.cesar.umd.edu/cesar/pubs/pcp.pdf

Says nothing disproving an association of pot with delusional thinking.

http://www.drugfree.org/Portal/drug_guide/PCP
Specifically, the "how is it used?" section

Same.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/001945.htm
"Some cases of severe delirium, hallucinations, and violence have also
been reported. Such cases should raise suspicion that the marijuana may
have been laced with another agent, such as PCP."

Same.

You make a good case for the effects of PCP. What I was asking you to do
Kyle is to both substantiate your assertion that the pot was spiked (you
have no way of knowing), as well as your assertion that "Unadulterated pot
will not promote psychosis."

For example, here's the article on a meta-study that says the opposite.
"Many consider it on par with alcohol or tobacco but the results shows
marijuana poses a danger many smokers underestimate, said Stanley Zammit, a
psychiatrist at Cardiff University and the University of Bristol, who worked
on the study... this study marks one of the most comprehensive, thorough and
reliable reviews of its kind and should serve as a warning, two Danish
researchers wrote in an accompanying comment in the Lancet medical journal,
which published the study on Friday... They said the results mean an
estimated 800 cases of schizophrenia in the United Kingdom could be
prevented each year by ending marijuana consumption.
"We therefore agree with the authors' conclusion that there is now
sufficient evidence to warn young people that cannabis use will increase
their risk of psychosis later in life," they wrote.
The team did not look directly at people who used marijuana but instead
conducted what is called a meta-analysis by reviewing 35 studies in search
of a potential connection between psychotic illness and using marijuana.
They reviewed evidence from studies ranging from one year to 27 years and
only looked at research that did not include people already showing signs of
psychotic illness.
The researchers also adjusted for factors -- like depression or a
susceptibility to harder drugs -- that could one day lead to a mental
disorder to focus more directly on the links between marijuana and
psychosis, Zammit said.
"We have described a consistent association between cannabis use and
psychotic symptoms, including disabling psychotic disorders," the team
wrote.
But both Zammit and the Danish researchers said ultimate proof to show a
direct relationship would be have to come through a randomized trial of
healthy young people and long-term follow-up.
Such a study, however, is unlikely given marijuana is illegal in most
countries and the ethical questions given the drug's known harmful effects,
they said."
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/n...5ac41c2232&p=1

I don't think you can access that link so I emailed the article to you.

"Kyle Legate" wrote...

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/001945.htm
"Some cases of severe delirium, hallucinations, and violence have also
been reported. Such cases should raise suspicion that the marijuana may
have been laced with another agent, such as PCP."

Actually, this citation, your excerpt included, plus the sentence above it:
"Unpleasant effects that may occur include depersonalization (inability to
distinguish oneself from others), changed body image, disorientation, and
acute panic reactions or severe paranoia."

supports my argument better than it does yours.

"Kyle Legate" wrote in message
...

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/001945.htm
"Some cases of severe delirium, hallucinations, and violence have also
been reported. Such cases should raise suspicion that the marijuana may
have been laced with another agent, such as PCP."

"suspicion" - Kyle, our expert on doping, seems to be as fast on the draw
for newsarticles as he is for accused riders.

Jim Flom wrote:

I don't think you can access that link so I emailed the article to you.



Likewise, I emailed you my retort, but for the benefit of the list:


http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/20...s_cause_sc.php

http://tinyurl.com/2936ku
(Pubmed; primary research)

Furthermore, you have to consider who is paying for the research:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...pot-study.html

This is about as likely as left-handedness causing schizophrenia:

http://strikerdiary.blogspot.com/200...linked-to.html

Also, a brief note to address psychosis:

From the bbc : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6917003.stm "But
Professor Leslie Iverson, from the University of Oxford, said there was
still no conclusive evidence that cannabis use causes psychotic illness.

"Their prediction that 14% of psychotic outcomes in young adults in the
UK may be due to cannabis use is not supported by the fact that the
incidence of schizophrenia has not shown any significant change in the
past 30 years."

Kyle Legate wrote:
"Their prediction that 14% of psychotic outcomes in young adults in the
UK may be due to cannabis use is not supported by the fact that the
incidence of schizophrenia has not shown any significant change in the
past 30 years."

However it has been conclusively shown that LSD is bad for elephants:

http://scienceblogs.com/retrospectac..._lsd_doe_1.php

"Kyle Legate" wrote...

Likewise, I emailed you my retort, but for the benefit of the list:

Never received your emailed retort.

http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/20...s_cause_sc.php

http://tinyurl.com/2936ku
(Pubmed; primary research)

Thanks for this. What I'm not seeing in the abstract is factoring in
frequency of use. The article on the meta-analysis cited _heavy_ pot use as
correlating with psychosis. What I see in the abstract you provide doesn't
account for frequency: "METHOD: We used a case register that contained 757
cases of first onset schizophrenia, 182 (24%) of whom had used cannabis in
the year prior to first presentation..." Did they use it once? Once a
month? Etc.

From the bbc : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6917003.stm "But
Professor Leslie Iverson, from the University of Oxford, said there was
still no conclusive evidence that cannabis use causes psychotic illness.

"Their prediction that 14% of psychotic outcomes in young adults in the UK
may be due to cannabis use is not supported by the fact that the incidence
of schizophrenia has not shown any significant change in the past 30
years."

Interesting point. What the context of that statement doesn't provide are
reliable estimates of trends in pot use during that 30 year period. In other
words if the incidence of schizophrenia is unchanged, but pot use is
unchanged it doesn't prove anything. On the other hand, if it has declined
since the '70s (!), it lends weight to the argument that as strains of weed
have grown more potent the risk of psychosis increases with it.
I do like the balance of the BBC article in taking care to provide a couple
of opposing perspectives. But it's also significant that 'Professor Robin
Murray, professor of psychiatry at London's Institute of Psychiatry, said of
the Bristol study: "The studies they looked at were done in the 70s, 80s and
90s. One of the questions they can't address is whether the risk is higher
with the more concentrated skunk forms of cannabis, which are now widely
available."'

Science's strength is also its weakness in the hands of dummies. You or I
might want to seize the position we prefer based this or that study (e.g.,
global warming). The fact is that I can't isolate the one article/study and
conclude pot causes psychosis as if it is some kind of natural law, and you
can't walk away from the meta-analysis study and simply dismiss it (well you
could but it would be dishonest science convincing only yourself). What it
does do is add to the body of knowledge as we keep growing in our
understanding of cannabis. And one another. Peace love dove...

JF

Jim Flom wrote:

Never received your emailed retort.

Interesting. I double checked my sent mails, the address was correct.
Maybe I'm filtered as junk (hey hey HEY. no murmuring from the audience).

Science's strength is also its weakness in the hands of dummies. You or I
might want to seize the position we prefer based this or that study (e.g.,
global warming). The fact is that I can't isolate the one article/study and
conclude pot causes psychosis as if it is some kind of natural law, and you
can't walk away from the meta-analysis study and simply dismiss it (well you
could but it would be dishonest science convincing only yourself). What it
does do is add to the body of knowledge as we keep growing in our
understanding of cannabis. And one another. Peace love dove...

Well, I know now that if I graduate to regular heavy use I should keep
my eyes open for signs of psychosis. Maybe marijuana and rbr have
something in common.

"Kyle Legate" wrote in message
...

Furthermore, you have to consider who is paying for the research:

Woga woga woga.