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  #71  
Old May 29th 21, 02:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Airborne

On Fri, 28 May 2021 17:17:55 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 4:03:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 07:03:32 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

I believe that the only U.S. 2 engine bombers that bombed Japan were
the Doolittle Raid (led Colonel James H. Doolittle, of course) in
1942.

As for justification, well, bombing of what might be called "civilian"
targets was practiced by all sides during WW II, the German, English,
U.S., Japanese, and Russians.

The fact that you think it was an improper thing to do, today, some 70
years later is simply evidence of your ignorance.

Go back and read newspapers from that error and see what the U.S. or
British public thought about saturation bombing. In both cases they
were terror stricken when it happened to them and vastly in support of
it when it happened to the "other guy".


America had at least two major medium bombers - the A10 and the B26 -

These were called tactical bombers and participated in ANY ground
action and that included the getting ready to invade Japan.


Errr TOMMY! The A-10 is a turbofan powered airplane that flew for the
first time in 1972 (27 years after WW II ended).

And yes, to the best of my knowledge, there were two medium bombers in
use by the U.S. during WW II, the B-25 and the B-26. The B-26 was used
in the S. Pacific to some extent but never against the Japanese home
islands. The B-25, was used in the 1942 "Doolittle Raid", taking off
from an aircraft carrier to bomb the Japanese home islands. But, as
far as I can discover, that was the only bombing raid on the Home
Islands made by a twin engine bomber.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Ads
  #72  
Old May 29th 21, 02:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Airborne

On Fri, 28 May 2021 17:26:27 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 5:10:40 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 07:05:00 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 9:39:32 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.
Hmmm. Groves was an administrator. Oppenheimer was the den mother for a lot of brilliant scientists who developed the bomb. Truman dropped them. He could have said "no." I'd give him the nod.

The nuclear bombs killed FAR less people than LeMay did. You can say that LeMay was a winner but don't tell that to the survivors of a napalm attack.

Well you got it wrong again. Bombing of the Japanese home land was
approved in late 1943, by the United States Joint Chiefs of Staff to
begin the strategic air campaign against the Japanese home islands. XX
Bomber Command was assigned responsibility for Operation Matterhorn,
and its ground crew began to leave the United States for India during
December 1943. The Twentieth Air Force was formed in April 1944 to
oversee all B-29 operations. In an unprecedented move, the commander
of the USAAF, General Henry H. Arnold, took personal command of this
unit and ran it from the Pentagon in Washington, D.C

As for General LeMay's contribution, well, when he determined that
bombing from high altitudes was ineffective he ordered that bombing
should be done from lower altitudes - 5,000 ft.

You seem to have some wild idea that the strategic decision to fire
bomb Japanese cities was a decision made by General LeMay but that
sort of decision is not made by what is essentially a unit commander,
it is the province of the Big Dogs commanding the war. A local
commander may well make decisions about the tactics used to implement
the decisions of those "back in Washington" but that is all.

General McArther's "removal" from command was a result of him trying
to dictate the conduct of the war rather then obeying decisions made
by the President.


John when you're so full of **** it is coming out of your ears perhaps you should stop. The Joint Chiefs AGREED with the commanders on the spot. Do you think that Joint Chiefs didn't agree with the Colonel Armstrong? Even though we ended up with 1/3rdf of the bomber crews and almost NONE of the B17? At the end of the war we had about a dozen B17's left. But according to you that was the decision of the Joint Chiefs. Go kiss you own ass.


Do you make this B.S. up? Or is it a result of your brain damage.

Unit commanders do not make major strategic decisions. And you ought
to know that as you claim to have "fought in the war". The operations
from Guam - Operation Arc Light - was controlled by SAC Headquarters
and a secondary command, "the Strategic Air Command Advanced Echelon"
at MACV. In fact I have read complaints that SAC headquarters were
slow in issuing commands.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #73  
Old May 29th 21, 03:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Airborne

On Fri, 28 May 2021 19:53:11 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/28/2021 7:33 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 11:22:27 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.


One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.


I once did some research regarding the incarceration of the Japanese
during WW II and I couldn't find a single newspaper article that
opposed the act.

What I found interesting was the fact that while those of Japanese
ancestry were imprisoned in the continental U.S. the Hawaiian
recruited 442nd Infantry Regimental, composed of Japanese Americans,
became the most decorated unit for its size in U.S. military history.


The great philosopher Joe Louis said at the time, "Plenty
wrong with this country. Ain't nothing Hitler can fix."


I was about 9 years old when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, in fact
I and my mother were at the church preparing for some Christmas Do
when one of the ladies bustled in with the news. I don't remember what
I thought about it but I do remember how horrified the ladies were.

And that seemed to be the overall reaction - "them little B`````ds
dared to bomb us?" Then, of course the "little b------ds" managed to
whip just about everyone in the region and before you knew it had
conquered most of SEA.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #74  
Old May 29th 21, 03:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Airborne

On Fri, 28 May 2021 19:55:38 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/28/2021 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 11:18:08 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 11:00:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Tom has a point, and urban fire bombing was probably illegal under some war convention, but getting the attention of a militarized population willing to follow its Emperor into the glorious afterlife was no easy feat. I doubt re-bombing a few military bases or industrial plants would have made a difference. I'm no expert, but this issue is the subject of endless post hoc debate by real experts.

I think that "real experts" is exactly what is not needed on this issue. As I noted, we tried and executed the Germans for little more. Was it "experts" serving on the jury?


But Tommy, Hermann Goering, who was Commander-in-Chief of the
Luftwaffe throughout the war was not convicted of the "crime" of
saturation bombing of English cities.


Uncle Joe Stalin skated on Holmodor. That, like life itself,
isn't fair. But there you go that's exactly how it happened.


But, that was "making the country safe for Communism" just like the
U.S. excursion into Vietnam was "making the country safe for
democracy" :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #75  
Old May 29th 21, 03:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Airborne

On 5/28/2021 9:10 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 19:55:38 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/28/2021 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 11:18:08 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 11:00:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Tom has a point, and urban fire bombing was probably illegal under some war convention, but getting the attention of a militarized population willing to follow its Emperor into the glorious afterlife was no easy feat. I doubt re-bombing a few military bases or industrial plants would have made a difference. I'm no expert, but this issue is the subject of endless post hoc debate by real experts.

I think that "real experts" is exactly what is not needed on this issue. As I noted, we tried and executed the Germans for little more. Was it "experts" serving on the jury?

But Tommy, Hermann Goering, who was Commander-in-Chief of the
Luftwaffe throughout the war was not convicted of the "crime" of
saturation bombing of English cities.


Uncle Joe Stalin skated on Holmodor. That, like life itself,
isn't fair. But there you go that's exactly how it happened.


But, that was "making the country safe for Communism" just like the
U.S. excursion into Vietnam was "making the country safe for
democracy" :-)



"just like "

???

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #76  
Old May 29th 21, 04:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Airborne

On Fri, 28 May 2021 21:26:32 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/28/2021 9:10 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 19:55:38 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/28/2021 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 11:18:08 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 11:00:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Tom has a point, and urban fire bombing was probably illegal under some war convention, but getting the attention of a militarized population willing to follow its Emperor into the glorious afterlife was no easy feat. I doubt re-bombing a few military bases or industrial plants would have made a difference. I'm no expert, but this issue is the subject of endless post hoc debate by real experts.

I think that "real experts" is exactly what is not needed on this issue. As I noted, we tried and executed the Germans for little more. Was it "experts" serving on the jury?

But Tommy, Hermann Goering, who was Commander-in-Chief of the
Luftwaffe throughout the war was not convicted of the "crime" of
saturation bombing of English cities.


Uncle Joe Stalin skated on Holmodor. That, like life itself,
isn't fair. But there you go that's exactly how it happened.


But, that was "making the country safe for Communism" just like the
U.S. excursion into Vietnam was "making the country safe for
democracy" :-)



"just like "

???


Well, apparently some 2 million civilians and about 1.1 million N.
Vietnamese military and Viet Cong died in the war as well as between
200,000 and 250,000 South Vietnamese soldiers. Call it 3,350,000 out
of 48,718,190 population in 1975.

Perhaps not up to Uncle Joe's standards but then they had less
practice.

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #77  
Old May 29th 21, 03:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Airborne

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 5:55:45 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 11:18:08 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 11:00:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Tom has a point, and urban fire bombing was probably illegal under some war convention, but getting the attention of a militarized population willing to follow its Emperor into the glorious afterlife was no easy feat. I doubt re-bombing a few military bases or industrial plants would have made a difference. I'm no expert, but this issue is the subject of endless post hoc debate by real experts.

I think that "real experts" is exactly what is not needed on this issue. As I noted, we tried and executed the Germans for little more. Was it "experts" serving on the jury?


But Tommy, Hermann Goering, who was Commander-in-Chief of the
Luftwaffe throughout the war was not convicted of the "crime" of
saturation bombing of English cities.

Uncle Joe Stalin skated on Holmodor. That, like life itself,
isn't fair. But there you go that's exactly how it happened.


This is a simple case of the winners setting the rules Andrew, not what is right or wrong. Joe Stalin would also periodically kill his generals because they might become a threat to him.
  #78  
Old May 29th 21, 03:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Airborne

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 7:26:42 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:10 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 19:55:38 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/28/2021 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 11:18:08 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 11:00:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Tom has a point, and urban fire bombing was probably illegal under some war convention, but getting the attention of a militarized population willing to follow its Emperor into the glorious afterlife was no easy feat. I doubt re-bombing a few military bases or industrial plants would have made a difference. I'm no expert, but this issue is the subject of endless post hoc debate by real experts.

I think that "real experts" is exactly what is not needed on this issue. As I noted, we tried and executed the Germans for little more. Was it "experts" serving on the jury?

But Tommy, Hermann Goering, who was Commander-in-Chief of the
Luftwaffe throughout the war was not convicted of the "crime" of
saturation bombing of English cities.


Uncle Joe Stalin skated on Holmodor. That, like life itself,
isn't fair. But there you go that's exactly how it happened.


But, that was "making the country safe for Communism" just like the
U.S. excursion into Vietnam was "making the country safe for
democracy" :-)

"just like "

???


As you can see, John is not here for any purpose other than to argue.
  #79  
Old May 29th 21, 03:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Airborne

On 5/28/2021 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 21:26:32 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/28/2021 9:10 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 19:55:38 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/28/2021 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 11:18:08 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 11:00:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Tom has a point, and urban fire bombing was probably illegal under some war convention, but getting the attention of a militarized population willing to follow its Emperor into the glorious afterlife was no easy feat. I doubt re-bombing a few military bases or industrial plants would have made a difference. I'm no expert, but this issue is the subject of endless post hoc debate by real experts.

I think that "real experts" is exactly what is not needed on this issue. As I noted, we tried and executed the Germans for little more. Was it "experts" serving on the jury?

But Tommy, Hermann Goering, who was Commander-in-Chief of the
Luftwaffe throughout the war was not convicted of the "crime" of
saturation bombing of English cities.


Uncle Joe Stalin skated on Holmodor. That, like life itself,
isn't fair. But there you go that's exactly how it happened.

But, that was "making the country safe for Communism" just like the
U.S. excursion into Vietnam was "making the country safe for
democracy" :-)



"just like"

???


Well, apparently some 2 million civilians and about 1.1 million N.
Vietnamese military and Viet Cong died in the war as well as between
200,000 and 250,000 South Vietnamese soldiers. Call it 3,350,000 out
of 48,718,190 population in 1975.

Perhaps not up to Uncle Joe's standards but then they had less
practice.


To be fair Viet Minh, Viet Cong and NVA were reasonably
accomplished at death in its any forms including successive
waves of assassinations for about twenty years (1954~1975).

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #80  
Old May 29th 21, 11:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Airborne

On Sat, 29 May 2021 09:41:21 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/28/2021 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 21:26:32 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/28/2021 9:10 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 19:55:38 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/28/2021 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 11:18:08 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 11:00:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Tom has a point, and urban fire bombing was probably illegal under some war convention, but getting the attention of a militarized population willing to follow its Emperor into the glorious afterlife was no easy feat. I doubt re-bombing a few military bases or industrial plants would have made a difference. I'm no expert, but this issue is the subject of endless post hoc debate by real experts.

I think that "real experts" is exactly what is not needed on this issue. As I noted, we tried and executed the Germans for little more. Was it "experts" serving on the jury?

But Tommy, Hermann Goering, who was Commander-in-Chief of the
Luftwaffe throughout the war was not convicted of the "crime" of
saturation bombing of English cities.


Uncle Joe Stalin skated on Holmodor. That, like life itself,
isn't fair. But there you go that's exactly how it happened.

But, that was "making the country safe for Communism" just like the
U.S. excursion into Vietnam was "making the country safe for
democracy" :-)



"just like"

???


Well, apparently some 2 million civilians and about 1.1 million N.
Vietnamese military and Viet Cong died in the war as well as between
200,000 and 250,000 South Vietnamese soldiers. Call it 3,350,000 out
of 48,718,190 population in 1975.

Perhaps not up to Uncle Joe's standards but then they had less
practice.


To be fair Viet Minh, Viet Cong and NVA were reasonably
accomplished at death in its any forms including successive
waves of assassinations for about twenty years (1954~1975).


Certainly, but one does have to clear the dead wood out of the forest
from time to time. Think of the U.S. and the Indians ( more politely
referred to as Native Americans, I believe).
--
Cheers,

John B.

 




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