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  #91  
Old June 7th 21, 11:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Electric Bikes

On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 09:13:31 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 10:34:18 PM UTC-7, pH wrote:
On 2021-06-01, Joerg wrote:
snip


The game changer, of course, is the Li ion technology since if was so easy
for uninformed users to kill off their lead acid battery pack.


Li-Ion also has its issues. For example, even top brand manufacturers do
not seem to understand that it is not a good idea to top off a Li-Ion
battery at close to 100% charge and then leave the bike in the garage
that way. This results in premature aging and loss of capacity. The
smarter way is to offer 80% or so which is plenty for a short ride into
town. Then let users top it off in the morning when they expect to go on
a very long ride. In the same way, don't ride it all the way down to
where the low-batt cutoff turns it off, at least not often.

"Smart" battery chargers would seem to be in order. Push the button if you
need more than an 80% charge this time for some reason.



NiMH would be more robust, but that chemistry never seemed to catch on
before Lithium came on the scene.


NiMH doesn't have an adequate energy density. A NiHM-battery that can
last 40-50mi would be unreasonably large and heavy.

[...]

pH in Aptos


Is the old stranded concrete ship still there?


Use..the SS Palo Alto.
About two years ago the winter storms broke the last 1/4 of the stern off
and it twisted about 80 degrees from level.

When I was a tad one could actually walk out to the bow. Then it was
fenced off at half way. Then when I came back from college and other things
it was closed off entirely and you can only walk out to the end of the pier
the ship abutts.

Sigh. Things change.

Concrete exposed to water saturation degrades surprisingly rapidly. One of the instruments I was working on detected leaks from degrading concrete is swimming pools. I would imagine that you could make a pool thick enough to delay this for a long time as those concrete barges showed. But degrade they will. The concrete turns back to almost a mush consistency.


Oh, you mean like the Alvord Lake Bridge that was built in 1889 in San
Francisco, CA. This bridge was the first reinforced concrete bridge,
and it still exists today, over one hundred years after it was built!

Or maybe the Hoover Dam? Constructed some 85 years ago and still
standing. Up to this time, the largest scale concrete project ever
completed.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Ads
  #92  
Old June 7th 21, 11:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Electric Bikes

On 6/7/2021 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 09:13:31 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 10:34:18 PM UTC-7, pH wrote:
On 2021-06-01, Joerg wrote:
snip


The game changer, of course, is the Li ion technology since if was so easy
for uninformed users to kill off their lead acid battery pack.


Li-Ion also has its issues. For example, even top brand manufacturers do
not seem to understand that it is not a good idea to top off a Li-Ion
battery at close to 100% charge and then leave the bike in the garage
that way. This results in premature aging and loss of capacity. The
smarter way is to offer 80% or so which is plenty for a short ride into
town. Then let users top it off in the morning when they expect to go on
a very long ride. In the same way, don't ride it all the way down to
where the low-batt cutoff turns it off, at least not often.

"Smart" battery chargers would seem to be in order. Push the button if you
need more than an 80% charge this time for some reason.



NiMH would be more robust, but that chemistry never seemed to catch on
before Lithium came on the scene.


NiMH doesn't have an adequate energy density. A NiHM-battery that can
last 40-50mi would be unreasonably large and heavy.

[...]

pH in Aptos


Is the old stranded concrete ship still there?


Use..the SS Palo Alto.
About two years ago the winter storms broke the last 1/4 of the stern off
and it twisted about 80 degrees from level.

When I was a tad one could actually walk out to the bow. Then it was
fenced off at half way. Then when I came back from college and other things
it was closed off entirely and you can only walk out to the end of the pier
the ship abutts.

Sigh. Things change.

Concrete exposed to water saturation degrades surprisingly rapidly. One of the instruments I was working on detected leaks from degrading concrete is swimming pools. I would imagine that you could make a pool thick enough to delay this for a long time as those concrete barges showed. But degrade they will. The concrete turns back to almost a mush consistency.


Oh, you mean like the Alvord Lake Bridge that was built in 1889 in San
Francisco, CA. This bridge was the first reinforced concrete bridge,
and it still exists today, over one hundred years after it was built!

Or maybe the Hoover Dam? Constructed some 85 years ago and still
standing. Up to this time, the largest scale concrete project ever
completed.


+1
Concrete can be durable if it's done right:

https://www.historicmysteries.com/roman-concrete/

Couple thousand years anyway, maybe longer.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #93  
Old June 8th 21, 12:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Electric Bikes

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 3:25:30 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 09:13:31 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 10:34:18 PM UTC-7, pH wrote:
On 2021-06-01, Joerg wrote:
snip


The game changer, of course, is the Li ion technology since if was so easy
for uninformed users to kill off their lead acid battery pack.


Li-Ion also has its issues. For example, even top brand manufacturers do
not seem to understand that it is not a good idea to top off a Li-Ion
battery at close to 100% charge and then leave the bike in the garage
that way. This results in premature aging and loss of capacity. The
smarter way is to offer 80% or so which is plenty for a short ride into
town. Then let users top it off in the morning when they expect to go on
a very long ride. In the same way, don't ride it all the way down to
where the low-batt cutoff turns it off, at least not often.

"Smart" battery chargers would seem to be in order. Push the button if you
need more than an 80% charge this time for some reason.



NiMH would be more robust, but that chemistry never seemed to catch on
before Lithium came on the scene.


NiMH doesn't have an adequate energy density. A NiHM-battery that can
last 40-50mi would be unreasonably large and heavy.

[...]

pH in Aptos


Is the old stranded concrete ship still there?


Use..the SS Palo Alto.
About two years ago the winter storms broke the last 1/4 of the stern off
and it twisted about 80 degrees from level.

When I was a tad one could actually walk out to the bow. Then it was
fenced off at half way. Then when I came back from college and other things
it was closed off entirely and you can only walk out to the end of the pier
the ship abutts.

Sigh. Things change.

Concrete exposed to water saturation degrades surprisingly rapidly. One of the instruments I was working on detected leaks from degrading concrete is swimming pools. I would imagine that you could make a pool thick enough to delay this for a long time as those concrete barges showed. But degrade they will. The concrete turns back to almost a mush consistency.

Oh, you mean like the Alvord Lake Bridge that was built in 1889 in San
Francisco, CA. This bridge was the first reinforced concrete bridge,
and it still exists today, over one hundred years after it was built!

Or maybe the Hoover Dam? Constructed some 85 years ago and still
standing. Up to this time, the largest scale concrete project ever
completed.


So explain to everyone here what water the Alvord Lake Bridge is on? Since cars pass beneath it it would be a real trick for there to be a waterway beneath it.

As for Hoover Dam, why do you insist on showing your ignorance on every subject under the sun? The fam is 45 ft thick at the surface and rarely has water up to that level. The bottom of the dam is 660 feet thick. Perhaps you'd care to explain to us how that compared to a concrete barge with a wall thickness of 18"?

Because you can use Google doesn't mean you know a damn thing you anti-intellectual.
  #94  
Old June 8th 21, 01:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Electric Bikes

On Mon, 07 Jun 2021 17:44:13 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

Concrete can be durable if it's done right:
https://www.historicmysteries.com/roman-concrete/
Couple thousand years anyway, maybe longer.


Yep. However, hydraulic cement isn't the current problem. The Romans
didn't have rebar. The problem is that concrete is 15 to 20% water.
You can convince yourself that there's water in concrete with a
oxy-acetylene torch and watch concrete chunks fly from the steam
explosions. When rebar rusts, it expands, which causes the concrete
to crack. Once it cracks, more water, chlorides, acidic liquids, etc
get in and cause some more rust. If the Romans had rebar, they would
have had the same problems we're having:
"Concrete degradation"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_degradation




--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #95  
Old June 8th 21, 01:39 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Electric Bikes

On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 16:06:05 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 3:25:30 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 09:13:31 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 10:34:18 PM UTC-7, pH wrote:
On 2021-06-01, Joerg wrote:
snip


The game changer, of course, is the Li ion technology since if was so easy
for uninformed users to kill off their lead acid battery pack.


Li-Ion also has its issues. For example, even top brand manufacturers do
not seem to understand that it is not a good idea to top off a Li-Ion
battery at close to 100% charge and then leave the bike in the garage
that way. This results in premature aging and loss of capacity. The
smarter way is to offer 80% or so which is plenty for a short ride into
town. Then let users top it off in the morning when they expect to go on
a very long ride. In the same way, don't ride it all the way down to
where the low-batt cutoff turns it off, at least not often.

"Smart" battery chargers would seem to be in order. Push the button if you
need more than an 80% charge this time for some reason.



NiMH would be more robust, but that chemistry never seemed to catch on
before Lithium came on the scene.


NiMH doesn't have an adequate energy density. A NiHM-battery that can
last 40-50mi would be unreasonably large and heavy.

[...]

pH in Aptos


Is the old stranded concrete ship still there?


Use..the SS Palo Alto.
About two years ago the winter storms broke the last 1/4 of the stern off
and it twisted about 80 degrees from level.

When I was a tad one could actually walk out to the bow. Then it was
fenced off at half way. Then when I came back from college and other things
it was closed off entirely and you can only walk out to the end of the pier
the ship abutts.

Sigh. Things change.
Concrete exposed to water saturation degrades surprisingly rapidly. One of the instruments I was working on detected leaks from degrading concrete is swimming pools. I would imagine that you could make a pool thick enough to delay this for a long time as those concrete barges showed. But degrade they will. The concrete turns back to almost a mush consistency.

Oh, you mean like the Alvord Lake Bridge that was built in 1889 in San
Francisco, CA. This bridge was the first reinforced concrete bridge,
and it still exists today, over one hundred years after it was built!

Or maybe the Hoover Dam? Constructed some 85 years ago and still
standing. Up to this time, the largest scale concrete project ever
completed.


So explain to everyone here what water the Alvord Lake Bridge is on? Since cars pass beneath it it would be a real trick for there to be a waterway beneath it.

As for Hoover Dam, why do you insist on showing your ignorance on every subject under the sun? The fam is 45 ft thick at the surface and rarely has water up to that level. The bottom of the dam is 660 feet thick. Perhaps you'd care to explain to us how that compared to a concrete barge with a wall thickness of 18"?

Because you can use Google doesn't mean you know a damn thing you anti-intellectual.


You wrote, "Concrete exposed to water saturation degrades". But
perhaps the Hoover Dam doesn't contain water?

As for the Alvord Lake Bridge have a look at
https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?ti... p15.1138.jpg
See the cars going under the bridge?
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #96  
Old June 8th 21, 02:15 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Electric Bikes

On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 16:06:05 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 3:25:30 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 09:13:31 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 10:34:18 PM UTC-7, pH wrote:
On 2021-06-01, Joerg wrote:
snip


The game changer, of course, is the Li ion technology since if was so easy
for uninformed users to kill off their lead acid battery pack.


Li-Ion also has its issues. For example, even top brand manufacturers do
not seem to understand that it is not a good idea to top off a Li-Ion
battery at close to 100% charge and then leave the bike in the garage
that way. This results in premature aging and loss of capacity. The
smarter way is to offer 80% or so which is plenty for a short ride into
town. Then let users top it off in the morning when they expect to go on
a very long ride. In the same way, don't ride it all the way down to
where the low-batt cutoff turns it off, at least not often.

"Smart" battery chargers would seem to be in order. Push the button if you
need more than an 80% charge this time for some reason.



NiMH would be more robust, but that chemistry never seemed to catch on
before Lithium came on the scene.


NiMH doesn't have an adequate energy density. A NiHM-battery that can
last 40-50mi would be unreasonably large and heavy.

[...]

pH in Aptos


Is the old stranded concrete ship still there?


Use..the SS Palo Alto.
About two years ago the winter storms broke the last 1/4 of the stern off
and it twisted about 80 degrees from level.

When I was a tad one could actually walk out to the bow. Then it was
fenced off at half way. Then when I came back from college and other things
it was closed off entirely and you can only walk out to the end of the pier
the ship abutts.

Sigh. Things change.
Concrete exposed to water saturation degrades surprisingly rapidly. One of the instruments I was working on detected leaks from degrading concrete is swimming pools. I would imagine that you could make a pool thick enough to delay this for a long time as those concrete barges showed. But degrade they will. The concrete turns back to almost a mush consistency.

Oh, you mean like the Alvord Lake Bridge that was built in 1889 in San
Francisco, CA. This bridge was the first reinforced concrete bridge,
and it still exists today, over one hundred years after it was built!

Or maybe the Hoover Dam? Constructed some 85 years ago and still
standing. Up to this time, the largest scale concrete project ever
completed.


So explain to everyone here what water the Alvord Lake Bridge is on?


Mostly true. The bridge originally had water under it:
https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=File:Alvord_Lake_and_Bridge,_at_Ha ight_Street_entrance_to_Golden_Gate_Park_c_1890_wn p15.1138.jpg
https://sfrichmondreview.com/2018/03/03/swan-on-the-lake/

Since cars pass beneath it it would be a real trick for there to be a waterway beneath it.


At some point in the past, the lake was filled with dirt to ground
level. I couldn't find an exact date. The earliest photo showing a
road instead of a lake was dated 1913, so I assume that there was
water under the bridge for no more than 24 years.

This is what the bridge looks like recently:
https://historicbridges.org/bridges/browser/photosviewer.php?bridgebrowser=california/alvordlake/&gallerynum=1&gallerysize=1
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/alvord-lake-bridge
No water, so this bridge is not a good example of concrete longevity.

Looks like they did some rebar and masonry repair work in 2020 for
damage caused by roots and ground movement:
http://giampolinicourtney.com/alvord-lake-bridge

As for Hoover Dam, why do you insist on showing your ignorance on every subject under the sun? The fam is 45 ft thick at the surface and rarely has water up to that level. The bottom of the dam is 660 feet thick. Perhaps you'd care to explain to us how that compared to a concrete barge with a wall thickness of 18"?


It's a ship, not a barge:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Palo_Alto

Because you can use Google doesn't mean you know a damn thing you anti-intellectual.


I'll give you half a point for getting the Alvord Bridge right, and a
full point for getting Hoover Dam and most of the concrete boat right.
However, I'll take off a point for exceeding your ration of insults
allowed in a single posting. Please note that readers tend to
eventually develop an immune response to your insults and that
additional insults have little added effect.

--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #97  
Old June 8th 21, 02:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Electric Bikes

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 9:15:19 p.m. UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 16:06:05 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

Snipped
However, I'll take off a point for exceeding your ration of insults
allowed in a single posting. Please note that readers tend to
eventually develop an immune response to your insults and that
additional insults have little added effect.
--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


I find it much easier to simply ignore his posts entirely. YMMV

Cheers
  #98  
Old June 8th 21, 03:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Electric Bikes

On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 18:38:47 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 9:15:19 p.m. UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 16:06:05 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

Snipped
However, I'll take off a point for exceeding your ration of insults
allowed in a single posting. Please note that readers tend to
eventually develop an immune response to your insults and that
additional insults have little added effect.


I find it much easier to simply ignore his posts entirely. YMMV
Cheers


I don't find it easier. Tom is not going to learn anything new or
change in any way. I found a 15 year old Usenet posting where he
acted much the same as today. I was busy for the last week and mostly
avoided Tom and just about every other distraction. However, as I was
finishing up, I couldn't resist taking a peek at R.B.T. and
automatically corrected one of Tom's contrived pontifications. I've
been doing this for so long, that responding has become a reflex
action. I'm not programmed for ignoring stupidity and feel obligated
to fix things. Ok, I'm addicted, which is why it's not easy for me.

Ignoring Tom might work, but only if everyone does the same. That's
unlikely to happen. As long as Tom monopolizes the bulk of the
messages in R.B.T., it will be difficult for me to find a discussion
thread that doesn't involve Tom in some manner. I might was well go
away and do something else more useful.

I'll give it another try and see if I can ignore Tom. However, don't
be surprised if I sneak in a few corrections and bad humor.

Drivel: How does one say YMMV (your mileage may vary) in metric
units?

--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #99  
Old June 8th 21, 04:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Electric Bikes

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 10:38:34 p.m. UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 18:38:47 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 9:15:19 p.m. UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 16:06:05 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

Snipped
However, I'll take off a point for exceeding your ration of insults
allowed in a single posting. Please note that readers tend to
eventually develop an immune response to your insults and that
additional insults have little added effect.

I find it much easier to simply ignore his posts entirely. YMMV
Cheers

I don't find it easier. Tom is not going to learn anything new or
change in any way. I found a 15 year old Usenet posting where he
acted much the same as today. I was busy for the last week and mostly
avoided Tom and just about every other distraction. However, as I was
finishing up, I couldn't resist taking a peek at R.B.T. and
automatically corrected one of Tom's contrived pontifications. I've
been doing this for so long, that responding has become a reflex
action. I'm not programmed for ignoring stupidity and feel obligated
to fix things. Ok, I'm addicted, which is why it's not easy for me.

Ignoring Tom might work, but only if everyone does the same. That's
unlikely to happen. As long as Tom monopolizes the bulk of the
messages in R.B.T., it will be difficult for me to find a discussion
thread that doesn't involve Tom in some manner. I might was well go
away and do something else more useful.

I'll give it another try and see if I can ignore Tom. However, don't
be surprised if I sneak in a few corrections and bad humor.

Drivel: How does one say YMMV (your mileage may vary) in metric
units?
--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


YKmsMV? LOL

Cheers
  #100  
Old June 8th 21, 01:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Electric Bikes

On 6/7/2021 9:38 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 18:38:47 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 9:15:19 p.m. UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 16:06:05 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

Snipped
However, I'll take off a point for exceeding your ration of insults
allowed in a single posting. Please note that readers tend to
eventually develop an immune response to your insults and that
additional insults have little added effect.


I find it much easier to simply ignore his posts entirely. YMMV
Cheers


I don't find it easier. Tom is not going to learn anything new or
change in any way. I found a 15 year old Usenet posting where he
acted much the same as today. I was busy for the last week and mostly
avoided Tom and just about every other distraction. However, as I was
finishing up, I couldn't resist taking a peek at R.B.T. and
automatically corrected one of Tom's contrived pontifications. I've
been doing this for so long, that responding has become a reflex
action. I'm not programmed for ignoring stupidity and feel obligated
to fix things. Ok, I'm addicted, which is why it's not easy for me.

Ignoring Tom might work, but only if everyone does the same. That's
unlikely to happen. As long as Tom monopolizes the bulk of the
messages in R.B.T., it will be difficult for me to find a discussion
thread that doesn't involve Tom in some manner. I might was well go
away and do something else more useful.

I'll give it another try and see if I can ignore Tom. However, don't
be surprised if I sneak in a few corrections and bad humor.

Drivel: How does one say YMMV (your mileage may vary) in metric
units?


At least RBT is better attended than Rec Autos which has
become a wasteland. Even the always enlightening SteveW and
TheRealBev hardy ever write now.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




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