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Braking Technique



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 17th 03, 04:29 PM
warren
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Default Braking Technique

In article , asqui
wrote:

Andrew Lee wrote:
"asqui" wrote

warren wrote:
I think you should worry less about invalid "arguments" and spend
the time practicing with both brakes and keeping your weight
farther back under heavy braking. Don't you think that having two
tires making contact/friction with the ground would work better?

-WG

So yeah... now that I found out where I read this invalid argument
perhaps you would like to consult the rec.bicycles.* faq around he
http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/9.17.html
Eating one's hat is optional.


Try reading this: http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/9.15.html

This has more information about braking in the context of corners...


Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear in my original post. I was referring to
emergency braking on a good surface in a straight line. Armstrong was
braking in a straight line as he came past the outside of Beloki. This
section of the faq states once more that front brake only is the quickest
way to decelerate as long as you're not banked in the middle of a turn.


Then it's wrong. Think about my question again...

"Don't you think that having two tires making contact/friction with the
ground (with the brakes applied) would work better than one?"

Why don't you go out and test your theory and that FAQ statement and
get back to us? Make sure to bring your hat.

-WG
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  #12  
Old July 17th 03, 06:07 PM
Mike S.
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Posts: n/a
Default Braking Technique


"asqui" wrote in message
...
Andrew Lee wrote:
"asqui" wrote

warren wrote:
I think you should worry less about invalid "arguments" and spend
the time practicing with both brakes and keeping your weight
farther back under heavy braking. Don't you think that having two
tires making contact/friction with the ground would work better?

-WG

So yeah... now that I found out where I read this invalid argument
perhaps you would like to consult the rec.bicycles.* faq around he
http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/9.17.html
Eating one's hat is optional.


Try reading this: http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/9.15.html

This has more information about braking in the context of corners...


Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear in my original post. I was referring to
emergency braking on a good surface in a straight line. Armstrong was
braking in a straight line as he came past the outside of Beloki. This
section of the faq states once more that front brake only is the quickest
way to decelerate as long as you're not banked in the middle of a turn.


And using the front brake only is also the easiest way to end up over the
bars and on the ground! If you aren't careful, the front brake has more
than enough power to dump you on your arse.

Mike


  #13  
Old July 17th 03, 06:11 PM
Mike S.
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Posts: n/a
Default Steering (was Braking Technique)


"Zelda" wrote in message
om...
Since you compare bicycles to motorcycles, I have a different
question:

I used to ride motorcycles, and tried amateur roadracing for a couple
of years. Last year, when I bought my first-ever good quality road
bicycle, I asked the staff at the bike shop if you use countersteering
to go around fast corners on a bicycle, as you do on a motorcycle
(pushing the handlebar away from you). They didn't know what I was
talking about.

So, do you use countersteering on a road bicycle?

Thanks,
Zelda

I do. I don't know if it is who I'm racing/riding with, or my technique,
but I can get around corners faster than 90% of the guys I'm with.

Just as a note: the velodrome at Encino has turns that make you countersteer
to keep on the black line. If you don't, you end up slingshotting up to the
top of the track. It'll catch you out if you're not paying attention.

Mike


  #14  
Old July 17th 03, 08:03 PM
Raptor
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Posts: n/a
Default Steering (was Braking Technique)

Zelda wrote:
Since you compare bicycles to motorcycles, I have a different
question:

I used to ride motorcycles, and tried amateur roadracing for a couple
of years. Last year, when I bought my first-ever good quality road
bicycle, I asked the staff at the bike shop if you use countersteering
to go around fast corners on a bicycle, as you do on a motorcycle
(pushing the handlebar away from you). They didn't know what I was
talking about.

So, do you use countersteering on a road bicycle?

Thanks,
Zelda


Apparently yes. I say "apparently" because it is in the FAQ, but I've
never conciously done it. It's said to be a subconcious technique, and
I believe I've detected it in my own riding. I get around the corners
okay in competition.

Boy, that sounded like the statement of an expert. Hope it helps.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

  #15  
Old July 17th 03, 08:49 PM
Race Fan
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Posts: n/a
Default Steering (was Braking Technique)

Countersteering works great for roadbikes, you will just want to
practice a bit. A dirty road surface is not a good spot to practice
since the countersteering puts a hefty lean onto the frame and a dirty
road would result in your wheels sliding out from under you. On rough
roads or gritty roads it is best to put your body heavy into the
corner and keep the bike up-right as possible, this makes the pressure
on the tires more directly down, versus a sharp angle between the tire
and the road.

Good luck!

(Zelda) wrote in message . com...
Since you compare bicycles to motorcycles, I have a different
question:

I used to ride motorcycles, and tried amateur roadracing for a couple
of years. Last year, when I bought my first-ever good quality road
bicycle, I asked the staff at the bike shop if you use countersteering
to go around fast corners on a bicycle, as you do on a motorcycle
(pushing the handlebar away from you). They didn't know what I was
talking about.

So, do you use countersteering on a road bicycle?

Thanks,
Zelda

"S. Anderson" wrote in message ...
(snip)
Incidentally, I hit the racetrack every now and again with my motorcycle and
I NEVER touch the rear brake when at the track. However, if you watch the
good guys, you can see them sliding the rear tire into corners using the
rear brake and engine braking. These guys are able to decode the input from
the bike to do those things. I'm simply overwhelmed with all the stuff
going on and cannot do the stuff they do. So your idea of front-brake only
may be analogous to my motorcycle situation..if you can't reliably operate
the rear brake during max braking so that the rear wheel doesn't skid,
you're probably better off using the front only.

Cheers,

Scott..

  #16  
Old July 17th 03, 10:16 PM
Dominic Richens
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Posts: n/a
Default Steering (was Braking Technique)

"Zelda" wrote:
Since you compare bicycles to motorcycles, I have a different
question:

I used to ride motorcycles, and tried amateur roadracing for a couple
of years. Last year, when I bought my first-ever good quality road
bicycle, I asked the staff at the bike shop if you use
countersteering
to go around fast corners on a bicycle, as you do on a motorcycle
(pushing the handlebar away from you). They didn't know what I was
talking about.

So, do you use countersteering on a road bicycle?


Yeah, but not consciously. I found myself doing it when caught on the
inside of a sharp 90 degree turn (crit). In fact it must be intuitive
because I was watching my 7 year old daughter countersteer as she was riding
up and down the driveway the other day.

--
Dominic Richens |
"If you're not *outraged*, you're not paying attention!"


  #17  
Old July 17th 03, 10:42 PM
S. Anderson
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Posts: n/a
Default Steering (was Braking Technique)

"Zelda" wrote in message
om...
Since you compare bicycles to motorcycles, I have a different
question:

I used to ride motorcycles, and tried amateur roadracing for a couple
of years. Last year, when I bought my first-ever good quality road
bicycle, I asked the staff at the bike shop if you use countersteering
to go around fast corners on a bicycle, as you do on a motorcycle
(pushing the handlebar away from you). They didn't know what I was
talking about.

So, do you use countersteering on a road bicycle?

Thanks,
Zelda


I think the whole countsteer thing is a little over-done. EVERYONE
countersteers when riding a bicycle or motorcycle, whether they know what
it's called or what it's supposed to be. I don't think you can initiate a
turn on a bike at any kind of speed without countersteering. Riding schools
emphasize and encapsulate the idea for students so they know the mechanism
for initiating and maintaining a turn, but everyone who rides does it
whether they know it or not. It's a lot easier to tip a bicycle in than a
motorcycle at each machine's normal operating speeds (say, 100kmh for a
motorcycle and 20kmh for a bicycle) so the countersteer is more obvious on a
motorcycle. You really have to push those clip-ons around to get the thing
to turn in. Much less force is required on a bike, so it's probably harder
for a bicyclist to recognize what's going on, but the mechanism is the same.
That's my take on it anyways.

Cheers,

Scott..


  #18  
Old July 18th 03, 12:27 AM
asqui
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Posts: n/a
Default Steering (was Braking Technique)

Race Fan wrote:
Countersteering works great for roadbikes, you will just want to
practice a bit. A dirty road surface is not a good spot to practice
since the countersteering puts a hefty lean onto the frame and a dirty
road would result in your wheels sliding out from under you. On rough
roads or gritty roads it is best to put your body heavy into the
corner and keep the bike up-right as possible, this makes the pressure
on the tires more directly down, versus a sharp angle between the tire
and the road.

Good luck!


Sheldon Brown would disagree:
http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html#leaning


  #19  
Old July 18th 03, 12:30 AM
asqui
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Steering (was Braking Technique)

S. Anderson wrote:
"Zelda" wrote in message
om...
Since you compare bicycles to motorcycles, I have a different
question:

I used to ride motorcycles, and tried amateur roadracing for a couple
of years. Last year, when I bought my first-ever good quality road
bicycle, I asked the staff at the bike shop if you use
countersteering
to go around fast corners on a bicycle, as you do on a motorcycle
(pushing the handlebar away from you). They didn't know what I was
talking about.

So, do you use countersteering on a road bicycle?

Thanks,
Zelda


I think the whole countsteer thing is a little over-done. EVERYONE
countersteers when riding a bicycle or motorcycle, whether they know
what it's called or what it's supposed to be. I don't think you can
initiate a turn on a bike at any kind of speed without
countersteering. Riding schools emphasize and encapsulate the idea
for students so they know the mechanism for initiating and
maintaining a turn, but everyone who rides does it whether they know
it or not. It's a lot easier to tip a bicycle in than a motorcycle
at each machine's normal operating speeds (say, 100kmh for a
motorcycle and 20kmh for a bicycle) so the countersteer is more
obvious on a motorcycle. You really have to push those clip-ons
around to get the thing to turn in. Much less force is required on a
bike, so it's probably harder for a bicyclist to recognize what's
going on, but the mechanism is the same. That's my take on it
anyways.

Cheers,

Scott..


What about leaning your weight? I have seen that other people can rather
competently steer a bike with their hands off the bars. Not through any
hairpins mind you.


  #20  
Old July 18th 03, 01:10 AM
David Ryan
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Posts: n/a
Default Steering (was Braking Technique)

asqui wrote:

What about leaning your weight? I have seen that other people can rather
competently steer a bike with their hands off the bars. Not through any
hairpins mind you.


Vary the pressure (weight) slightly between the pedals on the downstroke
or stop pedalling with the lower foot in the direction you want to turn
and put a little weight on it. (Either way, you tilt your hips a bit in
that direction.)
 




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