First road bike: braking?

David L. Johnson:

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:52:54 +0000, Jose Rizal wrote:

These come at costs, though, and become uncomfortable over time. See
below.

Drop bars become uncomfortable over time? Compared to mountain bike bars?

No, hand positioning other than on the hoods in drop bars become
uncomfortable over time. How much time do you spend with your hands on
the drops, and on the drops where your hands are within reach of the
brake levers?

So, this is why long-distnace tourists all use drop bars? To be
uncomfortable?

Don't argue with yourself.

Not ALL long-distance tourists use drop bars. What you've seen and what
is the absolute number are two different things. If you have figures,
post them.

Not true about drop bars. The only time your hands are in position for
easy operation of the brakes is when they are in the hoods, except when
the brakes have extensions which allow operation on the top of the bars.

Not at all. Hands on the drops can easily reach both the brakes and the
shifters (except fo Sora) of modern units. True, not on the tops, but
riding on the tops is only for a change of pace. Modern cross and touring
bikes do have secondary brake levers to operate on the tops, but I don't
find them necessary.

Not in the position when your hand is in the weight-bearing mode. You
can easily reach the brakes only when your hands are gripping the
section close to the curve to the hoods. This is not a comfortable
weight-bearing position for hands.

Even at the hoods the grip you can have on the brake levers don't
allow as good leverage as you can have in a straight bar.

True, but that is not the point. You have more than enough leverage to
send you over the bars in an endo. That is more than enough leverage for
any stop.

Yours is not the point. Most of everyone do not brake to perform an
endo. It's harder to modulate your braking when your fingers are so
close to the pivot point of the brake lever (hands on hoods), and the
better brake lever grip afforded by placing your hands on the drop where
the curve is does not allow for long-term grip comfort.

The hand positions on drop bars come at the cost of changing your body
angle as well. The result is that riding on the lowest part can only be
done over short periods since it changes the weight taken up by your
hands, and your neck gets more strained looking at the road by the upper
body being positioned lower down.

Look, you've obviously not ridden a road bike much. So, you are
uncomfortable on one. If you rode it more, you would become more
comfortable. Lots of us do that. Don't pass it off as impossible because
you are unfamiliar with it.

No one mentioned it being impossible. You conveniently ignored the
change in body position that comes with changing your hand positions
using drop bars, and this is a very important factor in comfort since
these changes can be uncomfortable especially on long-distance rides.
Sure, with time many people can adjust and become used to it, but the
fact remains that drop bars do not necessarily offer a better solution
for comfort than straight bars.

This "drop bars are superior to straight bars" argument smacks of
"roadbike-is-superior-to-mountainbike" attitude, and is a lore oft
repeated by many.

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:22:43 +0000, Jose Rizal wrote:

Drop bars become uncomfortable over time? Compared to mountain bike
bars?

No, hand positioning other than on the hoods in drop bars become
uncomfortable over time.

So does the single position available with mountain bars. Plus, the more
upright position is more uncomfortable on the butt, as well as being
slower.

How much time do you spend with your hands on
the drops, and on the drops where your hands are within reach of the brake
levers?

Only about 10% of the time, depending on the ride. All of that is within
reach of the brake levers. I never ride with my hands on the bottom of
the drops, but up in the hooks. With a finger on the brake lever.


So, this is why long-distnace tourists all use drop bars? To be
uncomfortable?

Don't argue with yourself.

I'm not. It's called irony. I will avoid it in this reply in order to be
clear.

Not ALL long-distance tourists use drop bars. What you've seen and what
is the absolute number are two different things. If you have figures,
post them.

Of course I don't. No one does. It's not as if there is a sanctioning
organization that lists every tourist. But I've been out there, and the
number of long-distance riders with straight bars is very small.

Not at all. Hands on the drops can easily reach both the brakes and the
shifters (except fo Sora) of modern units. True, not on the tops, but
riding on the tops is only for a change of pace. Modern cross and
touring bikes do have secondary brake levers to operate on the tops, but
I don't find them necessary.

Not in the position when your hand is in the weight-bearing mode. You can
easily reach the brakes only when your hands are gripping the section
close to the curve to the hoods. This is not a comfortable weight-bearing
position for hands.

Again, you are not used to it. You have to have the proper fit in order
to be comfortable with your hands in the hooks. But don't simply say that
it is not possible.

Yours is not the point. Most of everyone do not brake to perform an endo.
It's harder to modulate your braking when your fingers are so close to
the pivot point of the brake lever (hands on hoods),

You make these statements as if they were true, but they aren't. It is
very simple to modulate your braking on the hoods. Thousands of us do it
every day.

and the better brake
lever grip afforded by placing your hands on the drop where the curve is
does not allow for long-term grip comfort.

There you go again. You say it over and over, and maybe it'll become
true?

No single position is comfortable over the long term. That's the
advantage of road bars. You have multiple positions, giving you a chance
to rest one group of muscles and use another.

Look, you've obviously not ridden a road bike much. So, you are
uncomfortable on one. If you rode it more, you would become more
comfortable. Lots of us do that. Don't pass it off as impossible
because you are unfamiliar with it.

No one mentioned it being impossible. You conveniently ignored the change
in body position that comes with changing your hand positions using drop
bars, and this is a very important factor in comfort since these changes
can be uncomfortable especially on long-distance rides.

Again, there are thousands, hundreds of thousands, of riders who know
better than this. Making blanket statements to the contrary of common
experience is pointless. The change in body position is not a negative,
it gives you a chance to rest some muscles and use others. A single body
position is deadly on a long ride.

This "drop bars are superior to straight bars" argument smacks of
"roadbike-is-superior-to-mountainbike" attitude, and is a lore oft
repeated by many.

Let's see. The original poster was talking about riding on roads. Now,
which kind of bike would be more comfortable on a road ride, a mountain
bike or a road bike? For me, the answer is obvious. If you noticed, it
was for the OP as well.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
_`\(,_ | That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being
(_)/ (_) | attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism
and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any
country. -- Hermann Goering

David L. Johnson:

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:22:43 +0000, Jose Rizal wrote:

Drop bars become uncomfortable over time? Compared to mountain bike
bars?

No, hand positioning other than on the hoods in drop bars become
uncomfortable over time.

So does the single position available with mountain bars.

Hence bar ends on mountain bars.

Plus, the more
upright position is more uncomfortable on the butt, as well as being
slower.

But you know very well that the more upright position can be fixed by
adjusting stem height and angle. In fact, body angle on a road bike can
be easily replicated on a mountain bike with mountain bars. The issue
is hand positions.

How much time do you spend with your hands on
the drops, and on the drops where your hands are within reach of the brake
levers?

Only about 10% of the time, depending on the ride. All of that is within
reach of the brake levers. I never ride with my hands on the bottom of
the drops, but up in the hooks. With a finger on the brake lever.

Whereas a mountain bar allows you to ride within easy reach of the
brakes most of the time. There are now also brake levers with
extensions to enable braking from bar ends.

Not ALL long-distance tourists use drop bars. What you've seen and what
is the absolute number are two different things. If you have figures,
post them.

Of course I don't. No one does. It's not as if there is a sanctioning
organization that lists every tourist. But I've been out there, and the
number of long-distance riders with straight bars is very small.

Then consider people in countries who use bicycles as utility vehicles,
hauling cargo and people all day, everyday. If you have not observed
them in countries (particularly in SE Asia), there are plenty of
websites where you can see that not many of them use dropbars.

Not at all. Hands on the drops can easily reach both the brakes and the
shifters (except fo Sora) of modern units. True, not on the tops, but
riding on the tops is only for a change of pace. Modern cross and
touring bikes do have secondary brake levers to operate on the tops, but
I don't find them necessary.

Not in the position when your hand is in the weight-bearing mode. You can
easily reach the brakes only when your hands are gripping the section
close to the curve to the hoods. This is not a comfortable weight-bearing
position for hands.

Again, you are not used to it. You have to have the proper fit in order
to be comfortable with your hands in the hooks. But don't simply say that
it is not possible.

So you need to get used to dropbars in order to be more comfortable with
them. Why, if that isn't the same reasoning when using mountain bars...

Look at the design of the road brake lever. At the vertical position,
it is obvious that it is meant to be grasped below the pivot point, with
fingers that exert a force perpendicular to the lever. When you operate
it from the hood, it is easy to see that you do not have as better a
grip (in terms of leverage and "feel" for modulation) because you are
exerting force on the lever from points close to the pivot, and at a
significant angle from perpendicular to the lever. The fact that you
and many others are used to it does not imply that it is easier or just
as efficient than in mountain bars. Maybe you can juggle three or more
apples too, but that says nothing about the universal ease and
efficiency with which others will find that.

Yours is not the point. Most of everyone do not brake to perform an endo.
It's harder to modulate your braking when your fingers are so close to
the pivot point of the brake lever (hands on hoods),

You make these statements as if they were true, but they aren't. It is
very simple to modulate your braking on the hoods. Thousands of us do it
every day.

And how many more don't manage to do that *easily* ? The issue is ease,
not simplicity nor whether you can do it or not, and my argument is that
it is easier with mountain bars. You want to make it seem as if the
fact that many people have become used to dropbars imply that it's
easier and more comfortable. The latter does not follow the former.

and the better brake
lever grip afforded by placing your hands on the drop where the curve is
does not allow for long-term grip comfort.

There you go again. You say it over and over, and maybe it'll become
true?

You dismiss it without reason other than because you're used to it.
There's no compelling argument there.

No single position is comfortable over the long term. That's the
advantage of road bars. You have multiple positions, giving you a chance
to rest one group of muscles and use another.

And again, at the cost of changing your body angle which may not be
desirable for the rider. You don't want to mention this at all. You
can accomplish a different position with bar ends without changing body
angle significantly.

Look, you've obviously not ridden a road bike much. So, you are
uncomfortable on one. If you rode it more, you would become more
comfortable. Lots of us do that. Don't pass it off as impossible
because you are unfamiliar with it.

No one mentioned it being impossible. You conveniently ignored the change
in body position that comes with changing your hand positions using drop
bars, and this is a very important factor in comfort since these changes
can be uncomfortable especially on long-distance rides.

Again, there are thousands, hundreds of thousands, of riders who know
better than this. Making blanket statements to the contrary of common
experience is pointless. The change in body position is not a negative,
it gives you a chance to rest some muscles and use others. A single body
position is deadly on a long ride.

If it were as you preach, then most of every cyclist would be riding
bicycles with dropbars. This is not so, despite your hundreds of
thousands of riders, and this implies that dropbars do not represent the
best choice in comfort, be it road rides or anything else.

This "drop bars are superior to straight bars" argument smacks of
"roadbike-is-superior-to-mountainbike" attitude, and is a lore oft
repeated by many.

Let's see. The original poster was talking about riding on roads. Now,
which kind of bike would be more comfortable on a road ride, a mountain
bike or a road bike? For me, the answer is obvious.

You've been arguing on types of handlebars, now you extend it to bicycle
type. The answer may be obvious to you, but it is not to me. I'm
sticking to the features and merits of handlebar types instead of
including gearing, wheel characteristics and other distinctions between
the two bicycle types.

If you noticed, it was for the OP as well.

This doesn't support your argument, without knowing if a proper fit on a
mountain bike could have helped.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:42:49 +0000, Jose Rizal wrote:

Plus, the more
upright position is more uncomfortable on the butt, as well as being
slower.

But you know very well that the more upright position can be fixed by
adjusting stem height and angle. In fact, body angle on a road bike can
be easily replicated on a mountain bike with mountain bars. The issue is
hand positions.

I thought you were saying how bad the body position is on the drops on a
road bike. It is better to have more than one body position as well as
hand position.

Whereas a mountain bar allows you to ride within easy reach of the brakes
most of the time. There are now also brake levers with extensions to
enable braking from bar ends.

Not ALL long-distance tourists use drop bars. What you've seen and
what is the absolute number are two different things. If you have
figures, post them.

Of course I don't. No one does. It's not as if there is a sanctioning
organization that lists every tourist. But I've been out there, and
the number of long-distance riders with straight bars is very small.

Then consider people in countries who use bicycles as utility vehicles,
hauling cargo and people all day, everyday. If you have not observed them
in countries (particularly in SE Asia), there are plenty of websites where
you can see that not many of them use dropbars.

Nor do many of them take long trips. Hauling cargo is a short-distance
proposition.

So you need to get used to dropbars in order to be more comfortable with
them. Why, if that isn't the same reasoning when using mountain bars...

It's not, because you do not get used to riding for long distnaces with
only one hand position, or (even with bar ends) only one back position.


Look at the design of the road brake lever. At the vertical position, it
is obvious that it is meant to be grasped below the pivot point, with
fingers that exert a force perpendicular to the lever.

Why is that obvious? If it is "meant" to be gripped like that, why are
the hoods padded?

When you operate
it from the hood, it is easy to see that you do not have as better a grip
(in terms of leverage and "feel" for modulation) because you are exerting
force on the lever from points close to the pivot, and at a significant
angle from perpendicular to the lever. The fact that you and many others
are used to it does not imply that it is easier or just as efficient than
in mountain bars.

Long back in this thread, I did agree that road brake levers are not as
efficient as mountain bars. They don't have to be. They serve their
purpose well.

And how many more don't manage to do that *easily* ? The issue is ease,
not simplicity nor whether you can do it or not, and my argument is that
it is easier with mountain bars. You want to make it seem as if the fact
that many people have become used to dropbars imply that it's easier and
more comfortable. The latter does not follow the former.

Your last statement is true. It may not be as easy at first. So? It's
certainly learnable, and when you do get used to it, drop bars are more
comfortable on longer trips.

and the better brake
lever grip afforded by placing your hands on the drop where the curve
is does not allow for long-term grip comfort.

There you go again. You say it over and over, and maybe it'll become
true?

You dismiss it without reason other than because you're used to it.
There's no compelling argument there.

Nor is there a compelling argument when you simply state that the position
"does not allow for long-term comfort". That is simply false.

And again, at the cost of changing your body angle which may not be
desirable for the rider. You don't want to mention this at all.

Actually, I did. I stated that changing the body position from time to
time is more comfortable than being locked into one position. Whether it
"may not" be desirable for "the" rider (which rider?) -- well, that
depends on the rider. But those with many miles of experience racing,
riding in tours, centuries, and the like overwhelmingly choose drop bars
-- for comfort in the long haul.

This "drop bars are superior to straight bars" argument smacks of
"roadbike-is-superior-to-mountainbike" attitude, and is a lore oft
repeated by many.

Let's see. The original poster was talking about riding on roads. Now,
which kind of bike would be more comfortable on a road ride, a mountain
bike or a road bike? For me, the answer is obvious.

You've been arguing on types of handlebars, now you extend it to bicycle
type.

Actually, read three paragraphs up. You extended the argument to bicycle type.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | More people object to wearing fur than leather because it is
_`\(,_ | safer to harrass rich white women than motorcycle gangs.
(_)/ (_) |

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:00:19 GMT, Jose Rizal wrote:

There's nothing in what you post which suggests anything other than a
poor fit on your mountain bike.

Perhaps. Taken in isolation, I agree: hand numbness probably isn't
enough reason to want to get a whole new bike. However it isn't the
only reason I want a road bike though. It's a purchase I've been
contemplating for some time. I want to ride faster and do longer
distance rides more efficiently. Can't I just be happy with my new
toy? ;-)

-alan

--
Alan Hoyle - - http://www.alanhoyle.com/
"I don't want the world, I just want your half." -TMBG
Get Horizontal, Play Ultimate.

Alan Hoyle wrote in message ...
I'm in the market for my first road bike. I currently use a '94 Trek
970 mountain bike with slicks for commuting (3 miles) that I've
upgraded several times over the years (notably XT V brakes, Rockshox
FSX carbon fork, and a few other things) but I've been doing some
slightly longer rides and have found it uncomfortable, particularly my
hands get numb after a while.

So, I've been test driving a few road bikes. While they have all
seemed to be more comfortable and seem more efficient, the brakes have
invariably seemed to be far less powerful than I'm used to. Is this
universal for road bikes? Is there any way to make them stop faster?

-alan

Alan,
My road bike has the newer dual pivot Ultegra brakes and I can slide
the bike from the hoods without much effort. I brake carefully so my
front wheel doesn't skid as I may want to turn while braking as in
avoiding car doors. It takes a while to get the hang of it and get
good in an emergency. My mountain bike has disk brakes. They stop just
as well as the road bike. In other words I can apply the brakes on
either bike to take maximum use of the rubber on the road/trail or
hard enough to skid either one. The road bike has less rubber on the
road so it takes longer to stop on the road. The road bike is much
faster too so the problem is compounded. The road bike will stop in
the road faster than I can get the mountain bike stopped in the hard
pack dirt though at the same speed.
It's all a matter of traction once the clampers are working right!
John

David L. Johnson:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:42:49 +0000, Jose Rizal wrote:

Then consider people in countries who use bicycles as utility vehicles,
hauling cargo and people all day, everyday. If you have not observed them
in countries (particularly in SE Asia), there are plenty of websites where
you can see that not many of them use dropbars.

Nor do many of them take long trips. Hauling cargo is a short-distance
proposition.

Come now. Hauling cargo and people all day, everyday, for most of the
year is a long-distance proposition. These people do more miles with
heavier cargo than any tourist per year, or even six months. Comfort is
a very big factor in their bike usage, and drop bars don't afford that
to them.

Look at the design of the road brake lever. At the vertical position, it
is obvious that it is meant to be grasped below the pivot point, with
fingers that exert a force perpendicular to the lever.

Why is that obvious? If it is "meant" to be gripped like that, why are
the hoods padded?

From a mechanical operation viewpoint, the shape of the lever (how the
fingers are meant to grasp it) and its movement about its pivot clearly
indicates that the most efficient and easiest way to exert maximum
leverage on it is by applying a force perpendicular to the lever. The
further away from the pivot you push the lever, the lower the force you
need to move it. The fact that there is a hook at the end of the lever
indicates that your fingers are meant to be held close to that point.
You already know this; compare the effort you need to operate the brakes
(with one finger as you stated) when your hands are on the "hook" below
the hoods, to that required when your hands are on the hoods.

The fact that the hoods are padded is an indication only that people do
grasp their handlebars at this position, allowing operation of the brake
levers albeit with more effort than necessary and adapting to the poor
ergonomic design of the road brake lever/dropbar arrangement (rather
that having the design adapt to the human body). I think it's one of
the more neglected components in a bicycle, which can use a re-design.
There is no doubt in my mind that a more ergonomically satisfying design
can be implemented on road brake levers on road bars operated from the
hoods, but since most people who use drop bars put up with it, there
doesn't seem to be any incentive to component manufacturers to do so.

And how many more don't manage to do that *easily* ? The issue is ease,
not simplicity nor whether you can do it or not, and my argument is that
it is easier with mountain bars. You want to make it seem as if the fact
that many people have become used to dropbars imply that it's easier and
more comfortable. The latter does not follow the former.

Your last statement is true. It may not be as easy at first. So? It's
certainly learnable, and when you do get used to it, drop bars are more
comfortable on longer trips.

The last sentence is certainly a subjective one. I've gotten used to
hauling backpacks weighing 75 lbs over hilly terrain with dense
vegetation, but it's certainly not become easier nor more comfortable.
I could just tolerate it better.

and the better brake
lever grip afforded by placing your hands on the drop where the curve
is does not allow for long-term grip comfort.

There you go again. You say it over and over, and maybe it'll become
true?

You dismiss it without reason other than because you're used to it.
There's no compelling argument there.

Nor is there a compelling argument when you simply state that the position
"does not allow for long-term comfort". That is simply false.

I don't find it allows for the same comfort as a mountain bar. Many
long-distance utility bikers I've observed don't, either. I've
explained why, and you haven't rendered my explanations invalid.
However, I concede that adding "for all" to my statement above is
required to make it true and more accurate.

And again, at the cost of changing your body angle which may not be
desirable for the rider. You don't want to mention this at all.

Actually, I did. I stated that changing the body position from time to
time is more comfortable than being locked into one position. Whether it
"may not" be desirable for "the" rider (which rider?) -- well, that
depends on the rider. But those with many miles of experience racing,
riding in tours, centuries, and the like overwhelmingly choose drop bars
-- for comfort in the long haul.

I'm not convinced that it's for "comfort in the long haul". I think
"easier to have gotten used to" for these riders you mention is more
accurate.

This "drop bars are superior to straight bars" argument smacks of
"roadbike-is-superior-to-mountainbike" attitude, and is a lore oft
repeated by many.

Let's see. The original poster was talking about riding on roads. Now,
which kind of bike would be more comfortable on a road ride, a mountain
bike or a road bike? For me, the answer is obvious.

You've been arguing on types of handlebars, now you extend it to bicycle
type.

Actually, read three paragraphs up. You extended the argument to bicycle type.

If you read it carefully, I suggested that the pro-dropbars argument
stemmed from an attitude borne out of a perception that road bikes are
superior to mountain bikes. Nowhere did I extend the argument to types
of bikes.

Alan Hoyle:

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:00:19 GMT, Jose Rizal wrote:

There's nothing in what you post which suggests anything other than a
poor fit on your mountain bike.

Perhaps. Taken in isolation, I agree: hand numbness probably isn't
enough reason to want to get a whole new bike. However it isn't the
only reason I want a road bike though. It's a purchase I've been
contemplating for some time. I want to ride faster and do longer
distance rides more efficiently. Can't I just be happy with my new
toy? ;-)

In my mind, you don't have to have a "logical" justification to acquire
and be happy with a new bike, unless you really can't afford it...

"Jose Rizal" wrote in message
ink.net...

Come now. Hauling cargo and people all day, everyday, for most of the
year is a long-distance proposition. These people do more miles with
heavier cargo than any tourist per year, or even six months. Comfort is
a very big factor in their bike usage, and drop bars don't afford that
to them.

Comfort doesn't mean diddly-squat to these people. They do with what they
have or can get. I had the pleasure of letting an Indian student test-ride a
multi-speed drop-bar bike. As he fumbled around and ground the gears (no STI
on this one), his buddy told me that they just didn't have multi-gear bikes
in India. By your logic, this would mean that single-speed bikes are the
most comfortable, right? You should also note that the upright position on
cargo, utility and even single-speed bikes places most of the rider's weight
on the saddle, not the hands. Aerodynamics and ergonomics are simply
non-issues in these countries.

To take this argument one step further, consider the role of the recumbent
bike in the third world. While it is obvious that a recumbent would be a lot
more comfortable, how many pictures do you see of recumbents there? Expense
shouldn't be a concern because once mass-produced, they would be the same
price as the ancient designs that they already ride. Why aren't recumbents
seen all over the third world? It's simple - they just aren't available and
probably wouldn't be accepted even if they were. Modern multi-speed mountain
bikes are available all over the place, but they just aren't seen in India.
By your arguments, they would be more comfortable and certainly more
efficient. But that isn't what is found because a market doesn't exist. Oh
yeah, don't forget that they also require more maintenance as well.

From a mechanical operation viewpoint, the shape of the lever (how the
fingers are meant to grasp it) and its movement about its pivot clearly
indicates that the most efficient and easiest way to exert maximum
leverage on it is by applying a force perpendicular to the lever. The

Have you bothered to ride a modern road bike lately? Maximum leverage just
isn't needed. If your brakes are set up properly, the amount of force
required to brake from the hoods is minimal and modulation is a non-issue.
Heck, even my 20 year old road bike with centerpulls can be stopped just
fine from the hoods.


The fact that the hoods are padded is an indication only that people do
grasp their handlebars at this position, allowing operation of the brake
levers albeit with more effort than necessary and adapting to the poor
ergonomic design of the road brake lever/dropbar arrangement (rather
that having the design adapt to the human body). I think it's one of

It takes hardly any force to brake from the hoods with modern brakes. Even
my wife can do it with her petite hands.


I'm not convinced that it's for "comfort in the long haul". I think
"easier to have gotten used to" for these riders you mention is more
accurate.

Here's some evidence against your "comfort" concerns. I commuted on a
full-suspension mountain bike with slicks for many years. It was great for
the bumps, but put me in a position that was certainly not aerodynamic. I
*could* have modified the position, but then it wouldn't have been a good
bike for bombing the trails on the weekend. I got my hands on an old road
bike which I then modified with flat bars and bar-ends so I could use it for
commuting and recreational road rides pulling a trailer. My position was
considerably more aerodynamic, but I started having hand and wrist problems.
I tried several different stems, modified the position of the bar-ends, and
even tried bars with a different bend, but nothing could make the problem
disappear. The solution was simple. When your arms are to your side, which
way are your palms? Your hands should fall naturally to your side with your
palms inward. This also happens to be the best way for your palms when your
hands are extended forward. But flat bars rotate your hands so the palms are
down. This rotation affects circulation and strains muscles, tendons, etc.
Road bars allow you to keep your palms rotated inward.

Before my problems set in (which didn't occur until the mileage increased),
I thought that the flat-bar road bike was such a great idea that I wanted to
buy a new one. But now I have changed my mind. If I am going to put in some
miles with the trailer, I want a drop bar for the best hand positions.

Of course, you will argue that you can get the same thing with a set of
bar-ends. But this is simply not true. When you use bar-ends, your hands
have to move to a position that is wider, thus keeping your arms out of the
best alignment (the best alignment would be directly forward - the place
where you put your flat-bar grips, no?). This also creates greater frontal
area which messes up your aerodynamics. I ask you, since when has
aerodynamics been a concern for people in third-world countries using
utility bikes? Since when has ergonomics been an issue to them as well?
Finally, since when could you move from a very upright position to a very
low and aerodynamic position with a set of flat bars? Without a set of
aerobars attached to your flat bars, you simply cannot duplicate the full
range of positions available with a set of drop bars.

This isn't to say that the flat bar doesn't have some advantages. Off-road,
flat bars can't be beat. They provide greater leverage, a more upright
position, and greater visibility in the rough. On-road, the more upright
position makes it easier to see and be seen, while the greater leverage
makes dealing with urban obstacles easier.

My solution to my wrist and hand problems was to put the drop bars back onto
the trailer-hauler. For short road rides while pulling the trailer in
traffic, I usually grab the rigid mountain bike with slicks. For longer
weekend trips pulling the trailer, I grab the old road bike (now with drop
bars back in place). My newer road bike is reserved for long solo rides.
Trips to the trail requires the full-suspension mountain bike, of course.
And my '63 Schwinn Panther (the one most like the utility bikes you are fond
of referring to) is reserved for slow cruises through the neighborhood or
the occasional parade. It just isn't comfortable enough for anything else.

If you read it carefully, I suggested that the pro-dropbars argument
stemmed from an attitude borne out of a perception that road bikes are
superior to mountain bikes. Nowhere did I extend the argument to types
of bikes.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the "superiority" of either type of
bike. For long rides where the body position is not likely to change for
long periods of time, it's hard to beat a drop bar. For off-road rides where
moving around on the bike and changing positions often is the norm, flat
bars rule. This same discussion came up about saddles recently. One guy
complained that his favorite off-road saddle was now giving him problems.
The real problem was that he put slicks on his mountain bike and was riding
the road for long periods of time. What was fine for bouncing around
off-road was putting his parts to sleep because he just didn't move around
as much and the saddle cut off his circulation.

Please don't bother using the third-world as an example any longer. Their
wants and needs are quite different from ours. And the bikes available to
them are quite different as well. If you want to make comparisons, then talk
about the uses of bikes within the modern world where all varieties of bikes
are available. But don't give us any crap about market share - the mountain
bike with knobbies has been dominating the market for years despite better
choices being available for the intended uses. Markets tend to go for what
is "in" or "cool," not what is best for the use.

-Buck

Buck:

"Jose Rizal" wrote in message
ink.net...

Come now. Hauling cargo and people all day, everyday, for most of the
year is a long-distance proposition. These people do more miles with
heavier cargo than any tourist per year, or even six months. Comfort is
a very big factor in their bike usage, and drop bars don't afford that
to them.

Comfort doesn't mean diddly-squat to these people. They do with what they
have or can get. I had the pleasure of letting an Indian student test-ride a
multi-speed drop-bar bike. As he fumbled around and ground the gears (no STI
on this one), his buddy told me that they just didn't have multi-gear bikes
in India. By your logic, this would mean that single-speed bikes are the
most comfortable, right?

What a ridiculous projection. Don't equate your "logic" to mine. Gears
are a whole different issue to handlebars, where local multipurpose
mechanics in the countries I mentioned make ones up from ordinary steel
tubing. It's not an issue to get any shaped handlebar you like. The
fact is that not very many at all choose the common drop bar shape.

You should also note that the upright position on
cargo, utility and even single-speed bikes places most of the rider's weight
on the saddle, not the hands.

Exactly.

Aerodynamics and ergonomics are simply
non-issues in these countries.

Comfort is, and you've stated nothing which counters this.

To take this argument one step further, consider the role of the recumbent
bike in the third world. While it is obvious that a recumbent would be a lot
more comfortable, how many pictures do you see of recumbents there?

Another ridiculous argument. You're seriously comparing a type of
bicycle to handlebar shape and the ease with which you can obtain
either?

Expense
shouldn't be a concern because once mass-produced, they would be the same
price as the ancient designs that they already ride.

Assuming they will be mass-consumed. This is a huge assumption without
basis on your part.

Why aren't recumbents
seen all over the third world? It's simple - they just aren't available and
probably wouldn't be accepted even if they were.

You've just made up your argument and dismissed it yourself. To
summarise it, "Recumbents can be mass produced in [insert country here],
hence they can't be too expensive for poverty-stricken people, but
they're not available and won't be accepted even if they were."
Whatever the point of this is, it's irrelevant to the issue discussed.

Modern multi-speed mountain
bikes are available all over the place, but they just aren't seen in India.
By your arguments, they would be more comfortable and certainly more
efficient.

I don't see that at all. Again, misrepresentation abounds in your
argument. Drivetrain and gears are not in the same league as simple
handlebars in terms of ease of availability, cost, and manufacture.

But that isn't what is found because a market doesn't exist.

This has nothing to do with any of the arguments you've made, and
connecting it to such just does not make sense whatsoever. You need to
think the point you're trying to make, so that it will be
understandable.

Oh
yeah, don't forget that they also require more maintenance as well.

And the point with handlebars is...?

From a mechanical operation viewpoint, the shape of the lever (how the
fingers are meant to grasp it) and its movement about its pivot clearly
indicates that the most efficient and easiest way to exert maximum
leverage on it is by applying a force perpendicular to the lever. The

Have you bothered to ride a modern road bike lately?

Yes.

Maximum leverage just isn't needed.

So? That says nothing about the ease of operation, which is my point.

If your brakes are set up properly, the amount of force
required to brake from the hoods is minimal and modulation is a non-issue.

Rubbish. The fact is that it requires more effort and more time getting
used to operating the brake from the hood than it is from a mountain
bar. This isn't in dispute: the fact that you're used to it doesn't say
anything whatsoever to the relative ease with which you do it compared
to mountain bars. Have you ridden a modern mountain bike lately?

Heck, even my 20 year old road bike with centerpulls can be stopped just
fine from the hoods.

Again, the issue is relative ease and comfort.

The fact that the hoods are padded is an indication only that people do
grasp their handlebars at this position, allowing operation of the brake
levers albeit with more effort than necessary and adapting to the poor
ergonomic design of the road brake lever/dropbar arrangement (rather
that having the design adapt to the human body). I think it's one of

It takes hardly any force to brake from the hoods with modern brakes. Even
my wife can do it with her petite hands.

Again, by "hardly any force" you really mean "force which you've gotten
used to". If you have any experience with mountain bars at all, you'll
be better positioned to know that brake operation takes less effort.

I'm not convinced that it's for "comfort in the long haul". I think
"easier to have gotten used to" for these riders you mention is more
accurate.

Here's some evidence against your "comfort" concerns. I commuted on a
snip
Road bars allow you to keep your palms rotated inward.

So do bar ends on mountain bars.

Before my problems set in (which didn't occur until the mileage increased),
I thought that the flat-bar road bike was such a great idea that I wanted to
buy a new one. But now I have changed my mind. If I am going to put in some
miles with the trailer, I want a drop bar for the best hand positions.

This is your experience, and I never discounted the fact that there are
many people who find dropbars more comfortable. My point is it isn't
the ultimate solution handlebar for everyone, and in fact is not even
near, even with long-distance riders.

Of course, you will argue that you can get the same thing with a set of
bar-ends. But this is simply not true. When you use bar-ends, your hands
have to move to a position that is wider, thus keeping your arms out of the
best alignment (the best alignment would be directly forward - the place
where you put your flat-bar grips, no?).

No. Where did you get this idea from? The best alignment is the one
which is most comfortable.

This also creates greater frontal
area which messes up your aerodynamics. I ask you, since when has
aerodynamics been a concern for people in third-world countries using
utility bikes?

Since when has aerodynamics been a concern for comfort of your hands?

Since when has ergonomics been an issue to them as well?

Since it has always implied comfort.

Finally, since when could you move from a very upright position to a very
low and aerodynamic position with a set of flat bars?

Since when has aerodynamics been a concern for comfort of your hands?

Without a set of
aerobars attached to your flat bars, you simply cannot duplicate the full
range of positions available with a set of drop bars.

Irrelevant. Aerodynamics isn't the issue for comfort of your hands.

My solution to my wrist and hand problems was to put the drop bars back onto
the trailer-hauler. For short road rides while pulling the trailer in
traffic, I usually grab the rigid mountain bike with slicks. For longer
weekend trips pulling the trailer, I grab the old road bike (now with drop
bars back in place). My newer road bike is reserved for long solo rides.
Trips to the trail requires the full-suspension mountain bike, of course.
And my '63 Schwinn Panther (the one most like the utility bikes you are fond
of referring to) is reserved for slow cruises through the neighborhood or
the occasional parade. It just isn't comfortable enough for anything else.

Good for you. That's your experience. It's far from being universal.

If you read it carefully, I suggested that the pro-dropbars argument
stemmed from an attitude borne out of a perception that road bikes are
superior to mountain bikes. Nowhere did I extend the argument to types
of bikes.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the "superiority" of either type of
bike.

As I've implied. You can do with reading the post again more carefully,
too.

For long rides where the body position is not likely to change for
long periods of time, it's hard to beat a drop bar. For off-road rides where
moving around on the bike and changing positions often is the norm, flat
bars rule.

Ah, so you can move around with a mountain bar if you're off-road, but
not if you go on road? You might need to re-think that statement.

Please don't bother using the third-world as an example any longer. Their
wants and needs are quite different from ours. And the bikes available to
them are quite different as well. If you want to make comparisons, then talk
about the uses of bikes within the modern world where all varieties of bikes
are available.

Please don't take on a patronising attitude towards "third-world"
countries. Their need for comfort is exactly the same as "ours". The
availability of differently shaped handlebars is just as easy as it is
"here" in the "modern" world. Handlebars are not the same as gears or
other drivetrain components. Types of bikes are not the same as type of
handlebars. Recumbents and handlebars aren't valid comparisons.

Your use of the terms "third world countries", "modern world", and "us"
versus "them" shows quite clearly how little you know about the places I
mentioned, the lack of any idea of the situations in those countries,
and the ethnocentricity with which you view those countries. Please
refrain from making arguments about places and situations which you have
no experience in nor knowledge of. An encounter with one student from
India does not contribute to anything near awareness of India's issues,
let alone "third-world" countries.

By the way, many European countries also have workers utilising bicycles
as cargo and people haulers. What made you confine your focus to the
"third world"?

But don't give us any crap about market share - the mountain
bike with knobbies has been dominating the market for years despite better
choices being available for the intended uses. Markets tend to go for what
is "in" or "cool," not what is best for the use.

This is quite hilarious. You're the one who brought up the crap on
market share. It's your crap. You raised that crap. Please don't
attribute your crap to me. It's impolite and does not add to your
credibility.