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aluminum machining? A q that is technical but not bicyclic
In article
, Chalo wrote: Michael Press wrote: Steve Jobs is smart, has a vision, and gets it done. He hires very smart people then challenges them. They all love what they are doing. Except in technical support. This much I know. The red headed step child. I was at Apple for a while. The goons in technical support used to put together fictional tech call scripts, then tape them. They got around through the underground. Scurrilous, insensitive, crude, impure, ... In short rib-achingly funny. -- Michael Press |
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aluminum machining? A q that is technical but not bicyclic
On Oct 22, 11:17*am, "
wrote: On Oct 22, 7:32*am, wrote: Apple products are never cost competitive (at least on this side of the pond), A quick-grab, quick read look at notebook prices/features, Mac v. PC in the USA: *http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do? command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9023959&pageNum ber=3 (Tiny for above): http://tinyurl.com/2aeqh9 That ignores factory-installed applications. I have no idea what's what with PC's these days, but the new Macs come with a pretty impressive collection of apps, including Time Machine (auto backup). At work, the difference between a loaded Dell and loaded Macbook Pro is about 500$ That's not insignificant. Also, Dell provides us with protection against spills, drops etc... That's something that we can't get from Apple. but people buy them for various reasons. Superior user experience is up near the top of the list. Speaking of user experience, one reason I'm sure many computer buyers have recently "gone Mac" is the disaster that was Vista. Agreed. Vista has been a boon to Apple. (BTW: I've seen people say "they're the same thing" since Mac went to Intel. They're not. But I guess that flies in some quarters) I saw the video and I liked the idea of less parts and an exlusive, sturdy and beaatiful case of that laptop. It's like a titanium bicycle frame. God awful expensive compared with an cheap aluminum frame which does the same. Well, I'm not sure about less parts. I've read it now requires the removal of 56 screws to replace the keyboard on a new Macbook Pro. Yikes. Is that an improvement from the 20 or so it used to take? Maybe they have good reason, but I think they could take a lesson from Dell here and offer a keyboard that can be removed with two screws, or a hard drive that can be removed with one. It's settled down a bit, but last year I had a lot of Apple laptops with failing drives, logic boards, backlights etc... I like the Apple laptops. I just wish they would improve the serviceability of them. I've spent a few too many evenings at the Genius Bar. I'm not sure I'd want Apple making bike parts... Peter. |
#13
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aluminum machining? A q that is technical but not bicyclic
On Oct 22, 3:44*am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
I have a bit of an odd question with regard to laptop manufacture and aluminum machining. It's essentially one of curiosity, but I think a few people here may have some insight. If you don't know, Apple just introduced some revised laptop models. Great new features, bold design, whatever. The feature that made me sit bolt-upright and say "no way!" was the case structure. The old MacBook design used plastic molded cases. I think there might be a metal inner frame, too. The "Pro" model used aluminum cases, but I'm virtually certain they were stamped, and I think they relied on an inner metal frame as well (depending on the year, these frames were made out of aluminum or magnesium, I think, and presumably cast, but possibly stamped). This year's models are all sporting machined aluminum cases, and apparently have no inner frame to speak of (they call it "unibody" a la modern car designs). It appears the major components bolt more or less directly to the body. Web page here, including video of what may be actual manufacturing techniques and pictures of the bare case: http://www.apple.com/macbook/design.html It's a clever idea, and I can see benefits. But just watch that production video! How in the heck can they be doing CNC machining in a production-line fashion and be cost-competitive? I would have thought the cost and time (and manufacturing capacity?) would have been prohibitive. Anyone here have an insight as to how they're doing this without spending way more money than when they were molding cases out of plastic? I think these laptops are probably being made in the PRC, though there's a small chance this is a Taiwanese product. I mean, Apple's not crazy, so I assume this will all work, at least in theory, but when did machining costs and capacities get so cheap that they could conceive of milling out several million complex case designs every year? I'm surprised the chassis isn't die cast. I'd expect that would be cheaper, and it's tolerances would be fine for that application. CNC is great if you're doing low production things like boutique derailleurs. It's not so economical for large production runs. And think of the volume of scrap (chips) that they're dealing with! It looks like over 50% of the raw material leaves as scrap. - Frank Krygowski |
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aluminum machining? A q that is technical but not bicyclic
On Oct 22, 12:44*am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
Giant Snip Ever since I first heard of Apple I have been a continuous nay-sayer. And after all these years they continue to rake in dollars like ants at a Brazilian picnic. In other words, if it makes sense, they make millions. If it doesn't make sense, they make millions. Why fight it? Why try to understand it? ABS |
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aluminum machining? A q that is technical but not bicyclic
In article ,
SMS wrote: Ryan Cousineau wrote: I mean, Apple's not crazy, so I assume this will all work, at least in theory, but when did machining costs and capacities get so cheap that they could conceive of milling out several million complex case designs every year? There are some advantages of doing this in terms of thermals which can get very costly when you start using heat pipes. I wonder if Apple is using the aluminum body as a giant heat sink, in order to be able to use a slower speed, and quieter fan. You may be on to something. Here's a disassembly of a new MacBook: http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/First-Lo...ody/Page-7#top Look at the new high-power LED flashlights. They're not plastic because they use the aluminum or steel body as a heat sink to the the LED which generates a lot of heat at the junction. With incandescent bulbs the heat could be dissipated forward through the lens, but not with LEDSs. The disassembly photos show no heat pipes, just a fan that isn't directly coupled to the CPU or graphics chip. It looks like the case is a key heat-sink. -- Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/ "In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls." "In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them." |
#17
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aluminum machining? A q that is technical but not bicyclic
On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:46:50 GMT, Ryan Cousineau
wrote: In article , wrote: On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 07:44:24 GMT, Ryan Cousineau wrote: I have a bit of an odd question with regard to laptop manufacture and aluminum machining. It's essentially one of curiosity, but I think a few people here may have some insight. If you don't know, Apple just introduced some revised laptop models. Great new features, bold design, whatever. The feature that made me sit bolt-upright and say "no way!" was the case structure. The old MacBook design used plastic molded cases. I think there might be a metal inner frame, too. The "Pro" model used aluminum cases, but I'm virtually certain they were stamped, and I think they relied on an inner metal frame as well (depending on the year, these frames were made out of aluminum or magnesium, I think, and presumably cast, but possibly stamped). This year's models are all sporting machined aluminum cases, and apparently have no inner frame to speak of (they call it "unibody" a la modern car designs). It appears the major components bolt more or less directly to the body. Web page here, including video of what may be actual manufacturing techniques and pictures of the bare case: http://www.apple.com/macbook/design.html It's a clever idea, and I can see benefits. But just watch that production video! How in the heck can they be doing CNC machining in a production-line fashion and be cost-competitive? I would have thought the cost and time (and manufacturing capacity?) would have been prohibitive. Anyone here have an insight as to how they're doing this without spending way more money than when they were molding cases out of plastic? I think these laptops are probably being made in the PRC, though there's a small chance this is a Taiwanese product. I mean, Apple's not crazy, so I assume this will all work, at least in theory, but when did machining costs and capacities get so cheap that they could conceive of milling out several million complex case designs every year? Dear Ryan, Er, who said that they were spending less money to machine laptop frames out of aluminum? I don't know that the cases will be cheaper, but they're selling the new model for about the same prices as the old ones, and the specs seem competitive, too. Given that this is one of Apple's top-three most important products, they aren't likely to just plain blow it on manufacturing costs. Or maybe the aluminum is a giant heat sink? All signs point to yes. The NeXT computer had an expensive and impractical cast magnesium case that Jobs insisted had to be a perfect cube, without even an invisible half degree tapering to help the manufacturing process--all painted black. The molds were hideously expensive, black is the worst choice for hiding minor paint defects and resisting scuffing in shipping, and there were one or two other little problems with the great new features and bold design. For some reason, perfect-cube magnesium computer cases painted flat black failed to catch on. Possibly that example is familiar? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...4681a6bbb87dba Indeed, but the Steve Jobs who drove the creation of the NeXT Cube has a lot of successful, well-designed products between himself and the Cube. I don't have to carry any water for the fruit company, but the guy does seem to have learned a few things about manufacturing processes between then and now. (though what it is about Steve Jobs and cubes I don't know; the Mac G4 Cube was a notorious and exceptional failure of his latest tenure as Apple CEO.) Dear Ryan, If there were some sound price or performance reason, Apple would probably have mentioned it. Whimsy, price elasticity, and the marketing department's demand for something new every year seem more likely than any engineering or budget explanations for carving laptop cases out of solid chunks of aluminum. Or maybe the new solid aluminum laptop case is much lighter than those heavy old plastic cases? Cheers, Carl Fogel |
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aluminum machining? A q that is technical but not bicyclic
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aluminum machining? A q that is technical but not bicyclic
Tom Ace wrote:
On Oct 22, 12:44 am, Ryan Cousineau wrote: I mean, Apple's not crazy, so I assume this will all work, at least in theory, but when did machining costs and capacities get so cheap that they could conceive of milling out several million complex case designs every year? Hard disk drives have had intricately machined aluminum cases for years. Tom Ace they're /finished/ with machining operations, but the bulk of the shaping is done by casting. finish is much cheaper/simpler than forming. |
#20
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aluminum machining? A q that is technical but not bicyclic
On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:01:26 -0600, wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:46:50 GMT, Ryan Cousineau wrote: In article , wrote: On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 07:44:24 GMT, Ryan Cousineau wrote: I have a bit of an odd question with regard to laptop manufacture and aluminum machining. It's essentially one of curiosity, but I think a few people here may have some insight. If you don't know, Apple just introduced some revised laptop models. Great new features, bold design, whatever. The feature that made me sit bolt-upright and say "no way!" was the case structure. The old MacBook design used plastic molded cases. I think there might be a metal inner frame, too. The "Pro" model used aluminum cases, but I'm virtually certain they were stamped, and I think they relied on an inner metal frame as well (depending on the year, these frames were made out of aluminum or magnesium, I think, and presumably cast, but possibly stamped). This year's models are all sporting machined aluminum cases, and apparently have no inner frame to speak of (they call it "unibody" a la modern car designs). It appears the major components bolt more or less directly to the body. Web page here, including video of what may be actual manufacturing techniques and pictures of the bare case: http://www.apple.com/macbook/design.html It's a clever idea, and I can see benefits. But just watch that production video! How in the heck can they be doing CNC machining in a production-line fashion and be cost-competitive? I would have thought the cost and time (and manufacturing capacity?) would have been prohibitive. Anyone here have an insight as to how they're doing this without spending way more money than when they were molding cases out of plastic? I think these laptops are probably being made in the PRC, though there's a small chance this is a Taiwanese product. I mean, Apple's not crazy, so I assume this will all work, at least in theory, but when did machining costs and capacities get so cheap that they could conceive of milling out several million complex case designs every year? Dear Ryan, Er, who said that they were spending less money to machine laptop frames out of aluminum? I don't know that the cases will be cheaper, but they're selling the new model for about the same prices as the old ones, and the specs seem competitive, too. Given that this is one of Apple's top-three most important products, they aren't likely to just plain blow it on manufacturing costs. Or maybe the aluminum is a giant heat sink? All signs point to yes. The NeXT computer had an expensive and impractical cast magnesium case that Jobs insisted had to be a perfect cube, without even an invisible half degree tapering to help the manufacturing process--all painted black. The molds were hideously expensive, black is the worst choice for hiding minor paint defects and resisting scuffing in shipping, and there were one or two other little problems with the great new features and bold design. For some reason, perfect-cube magnesium computer cases painted flat black failed to catch on. Possibly that example is familiar? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...4681a6bbb87dba Indeed, but the Steve Jobs who drove the creation of the NeXT Cube has a lot of successful, well-designed products between himself and the Cube. I don't have to carry any water for the fruit company, but the guy does seem to have learned a few things about manufacturing processes between then and now. (though what it is about Steve Jobs and cubes I don't know; the Mac G4 Cube was a notorious and exceptional failure of his latest tenure as Apple CEO.) Dear Ryan, If there were some sound price or performance reason, Apple would probably have mentioned it. Whimsy, price elasticity, and the marketing department's demand for something new every year seem more likely than any engineering or budget explanations for carving laptop cases out of solid chunks of aluminum. Or maybe the new solid aluminum laptop case is much lighter than those heavy old plastic cases? Cheers, Carl Fogel It may help to quote Apple's explanation: "When you have multiple parts that are fastened together, tolerances don’t need to be perfect. You have wiggle room, both literally and figuratively. But when one part is responsible for many functions, it’s critical to manufacture that part with absolute precision, down to the micron. Every time. Millions of times over. There was only one way to achieve this level of precision: mill the unibody from a solid block of aluminum using computer numerical control, or CNC, machines — the kind used by the aerospace industry to build mission-critical spacecraft components." http://www.apple.com/macbook/design.html Yikes! None of that wiggle room when perfection is required! Absolute precision, down to the micron! Just like mission critical spacecraft components! Cheers, Carl Fogel |
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