Time to Ban Equestrians from Trails

We hiked the new Dias Ridge Trail
http://www.ridgetrail.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71&It emid=72
in Marin County today.

Hikers, bicycles, and horses are all allowed. Four mountain bikers
passed us, all riding responsibly. The new trail is very nice _except_
for all the horse manure everywhere. It's disgusting, and a hassle to
keep stepping around. In some places it covers the whole width of the
trail. We then took the Miwok trail and Redwood Creek trails back to
Muir Beach. They were even worse in terms of horse manure because they
are narrower.

Why can't equestrians be forced to clean up after themselves? They are
so inconsiderate of other trail users. Equestrians should buy land to
create their own trail system separate from self-powered hikers and
bicyclists that don't leave a huge mess behind.

On 8/20/2011 7:52 PM, SMS wrote:

Why can't equestrians be forced to clean up after themselves? They are
so inconsiderate of other trail users. Equestrians should buy land to
create their own trail system separate from self-powered hikers and
bicyclists that don't leave a huge mess behind.

We make dog owners clean up after themselves, and humans are trained in
proper etiquette for wilderness hygiene, but somehow we forgot about
other domesticated animals.

There are several horse diaper products on the market. It's time that
the state, county, and federal government require their use on public lands.

http://www.equisan.com.au/
http://www.bunbag.com/

"sms88" wrote in message
...
On 8/20/2011 7:52 PM, SMS wrote:

Why can't equestrians be forced to clean up after themselves? They
are
so inconsiderate of other trail users. Equestrians should buy land to
create their own trail system separate from self-powered hikers and
bicyclists that don't leave a huge mess behind.

We make dog owners clean up after themselves, and humans are trained
in proper etiquette for wilderness hygiene, but somehow we forgot
about other domesticated animals.

There are several horse diaper products on the market. It's time that
the state, county, and federal government require their use on public
lands.

http://www.equisan.com.au/
http://www.bunbag.com/

A reasonably-truthful argument can be made that horse poop is nowhere
near as foul, to the environment or senses, as that of dogs. Has to do
with the diet. Nevertheless, it remains a severe inconvenience to other
trail users, and is, at the very least, rude and uncaring. Equestrians
should be required to remove the excrement from the trail, period.
Simply shoveling it to the side is probably adequate in a non-urban
area.

Of course, unless the equestrian has eyes in the back of his or her
head, they don't know the horse has pooped, so the diaper product
becomes relevant.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

In article ,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:

"sms88" wrote in message
...
On 8/20/2011 7:52 PM, SMS wrote:

Why can't equestrians be forced to clean up after themselves? They
are
so inconsiderate of other trail users. Equestrians should buy land to
create their own trail system separate from self-powered hikers and
bicyclists that don't leave a huge mess behind.

We make dog owners clean up after themselves, and humans are trained
in proper etiquette for wilderness hygiene, but somehow we forgot
about other domesticated animals.

There are several horse diaper products on the market. It's time that
the state, county, and federal government require their use on public
lands.

http://www.equisan.com.au/
http://www.bunbag.com/

A reasonably-truthful argument can be made that horse poop is nowhere
near as foul, to the environment or senses, as that of dogs. Has to do
with the diet. Nevertheless, it remains a severe inconvenience to other
trail users, and is, at the very least, rude and uncaring. Equestrians
should be required to remove the excrement from the trail, period.
Simply shoveling it to the side is probably adequate in a non-urban
area.

Of course, unless the equestrian has eyes in the back of his or her
head, they don't know the horse has pooped, so the diaper product
becomes relevant.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


The Open Space District requires cleaning up after dogs but not horses.
Dog poop contains things that are harmful to wild animals (and
potentially people) while horse poop does not. I have had equestrians
inquire as to whether other users prefer they have the horses dump in
one place or spread it out. It appears they do know what is happening
behind them.

Karl

On 21/08/11 5:57 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

A reasonably-truthful argument can be made that

bicycles (as a group) do a LOT more damage to the trails, especially
when riding on the trails during the rainy season. Unless you want to
start seeing signs banning bikes from all the single track in many parks
for the entire rainy season (which happens quite a bit for horse riders)
you might want to get off that "high horse" about damage to the trails.
It can come back to bite the biking community very hard.

The manure horses leave on the trail becomes fertilizer for the park.
The ruts that bicycles leave on the trail becomes a morass, or become
erosion channels that can cause tremendous damage in a single day's rain.

jc

On 8/22/2011 3:43 PM, jcdill wrote:
On 21/08/11 5:57 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

A reasonably-truthful argument can be made that

bicycles (as a group) do a LOT more damage to the trails, especially
when riding on the trails during the rainy season. Unless you want to
start seeing signs banning bikes from all the single track in many parks
for the entire rainy season (which happens quite a bit for horse riders)
you might want to get off that "high horse" about damage to the trails.
It can come back to bite the biking community very hard.


Ooooh... Sounds like a threat to me.

The manure horses leave on the trail becomes fertilizer for the park.

Eventually. But before it does, it is a disgusting, ugly mess that horse
riders should be forced to clean up.

Sounds like this touched a nerve.

Jonz

On 22/08/11 7:09 PM, Jonz wrote:
On 8/22/2011 3:43 PM, jcdill wrote:
On 21/08/11 5:57 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

A reasonably-truthful argument can be made that

bicycles (as a group) do a LOT more damage to the trails, especially
when riding on the trails during the rainy season. Unless you want to
start seeing signs banning bikes from all the single track in many parks
for the entire rainy season (which happens quite a bit for horse riders)
you might want to get off that "high horse" about damage to the trails.
It can come back to bite the biking community very hard.

Ooooh... Sounds like a threat to me.

It's not a threat, it's a reality.

There was a big thread following an equestrian event at Fort Ord where
bikers complained about "all the damage to the trails". In response, it
was pointed out that:

1) The event had both "good weather" and "wet weather" routes, and they
used the wet weather routes.

2) We had unusual late season rain.

3) Sea Otter (held in April, at a time when rain is much more likely)
has run several times when the trails were *really* wet, and with
thousands of bikes riding on the trails (practice, racing, gran fondo,
for fun, etc.) they really tore the trails up pretty bad in those years.

So, if the bikers want to run the risk of seeing the mountain bike races
at Sea Otter canceled, just go ahead and complain about the horse riders
"tearing up the trails" at a sanctioned event. Because what's good for
the goose is good for the gander.

The manure horses leave on the trail becomes fertilizer for the park.

Eventually. But before it does, it is a disgusting, ugly mess that horse
riders should be forced to clean up.

That's one person's opinion. People who live in glass houses shouldn't
throw stones. When you gripe about horses, you just open up the
conversation to gripes back about bikes, and you KNOW that there are bad
actors in the bike group and to have others pointing out the bad
behaviors of those bad actors doesn't endear people to bikes.

jc

On 8/22/2011 11:27 PM, jcdill wrote:
On 22/08/11 7:09 PM, Jonz wrote:
On 8/22/2011 3:43 PM, jcdill wrote:


The manure horses leave on the trail becomes fertilizer for the park.

Eventually. But before it does, it is a disgusting, ugly mess that horse
riders should be forced to clean up.

That's one person's opinion. People who live in glass houses shouldn't
throw stones. When you gripe about horses, you just open up the
conversation to gripes back about bikes, and you KNOW that there are bad
actors in the bike group and to have others pointing out the bad
behaviors of those bad actors doesn't endear people to bikes.


This sounds like:

Mommy, they do it too, so it must be OK.


Jonz

On 23/08/11 9:27 AM, Jonz wrote:
On 8/22/2011 11:27 PM, jcdill wrote:
On 22/08/11 7:09 PM, Jonz wrote:
On 8/22/2011 3:43 PM, jcdill wrote:


The manure horses leave on the trail becomes fertilizer for the park.

Eventually. But before it does, it is a disgusting, ugly mess that horse
riders should be forced to clean up.

That's one person's opinion. People who live in glass houses shouldn't
throw stones. When you gripe about horses, you just open up the
conversation to gripes back about bikes, and you KNOW that there are bad
actors in the bike group and to have others pointing out the bad
behaviors of those bad actors doesn't endear people to bikes.


This sounds like:

Mommy, they do it too, so it must be OK.

No, that's not what it is at all.

It's a form of the Streisand effect. It's not a good idea to try to get
more people looking at how people act uncaringly towards other park
users when your own group is the group that most often generates
complaints about uncaring behavior towards other park users. It's about
the risk of one group with a public relations problem that also has a
fair percent of members who flout rules (poaching etc.) griping about
the behavior of other groups. You run the risk of having the magnifying
glass turned right back on your own group's problems.

If you want people to focus back on bad riding behaviors, go right ahead
and complain about horses. You will get all the attention you want (and
more that you don't want) about trail issues regarding bikes. It
definitely will NOT end up with any expanded trail access for bikes.

jc

On 23/08/11 9:27 AM, Jonz wrote:
On 8/22/2011 11:27 PM, jcdill wrote:
On 22/08/11 7:09 PM, Jonz wrote:
On 8/22/2011 3:43 PM, jcdill wrote:


The manure horses leave on the trail becomes fertilizer for the park.

Eventually. But before it does, it is a disgusting, ugly mess that horse
riders should be forced to clean up.

BTW, this is a lot like people who move next to an airport then complain
about the noise. While we (society) can't keep people from moving next
to an airport, we (society) CAN keep bikes from legally using trails by
refusing to expand existing and new trails to use by bikes, or by
banning bikes from trails they have already been given permission to
ride. So if your goal is to ensure that more and more people show up to
argue against allowing bikes on the trails, just go ahead and complain
about the horses. The horses were there first, and they will mobilize
to prevent bikes from being allowed on trails if the bikes aren't going
to respect the way things have been working well for trail users (hikers
and equestrians) when they are granted biking access to trails.

jc