Age and Heart Rates

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 5:02:48 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 09:48:08 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-12-13 18:43, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 07:54:13 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-12-12 16:24, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 07:21:20 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-12-11 00:50, John B. wrote:

[...]

... by 10 minutes at 20%", or whatever, and is a
method of determining the intensity of the exercise.


Sounds like what cyclists call intervall training.

It is. If you add in the long rides. For example, Monday 1 min at 90%
followed by 1 min walk (continue until you vomit); Tuesday 1 hour at
race intensity, Wednesday rest, and so on. The long days can be
thought of single intervals.


I think it's different, more like what Lee said. Where a sprint maxes
out the muscles. I don't max out mine much, meaning I could hammer up a
hill faster but then I'd be pooped for many minutes and the ride would
no longer be an enjoyable one.

It gets very complicated. For example, there are fast twitch muscle
fibers and slow twitch fibers. Doing sprints certainly causes the fast
twitch fibers to grow but has a lesser effect on the slow twitch
fibers. On the other hand, a series of stresses placed on the legs,
for instance, certainly strengthens all the leg muscles.

I used to do hill climbs. A hill ling enough that I ran out of breath
and start in the lowest gets and ride to a certain place, coast back
down to the bottom, shift up a gear and do the same thing.

Theoretically this is a fast twitch exercise good for sprinters but it
also improved my average speed for a 2 - 3 hour ride.


With me that hasn't helped much. I get "natural climb training" every
time I return from the valley which is once or twice a week. The last
10mi are up, down, up, down, a lot. My muscles are strong, the
limitation seems to be that I simply run out of breath and general
energy. I am not complaining since I am usually among the faster riders.
Certainly not race material though.

The thing is that there are really two equations that apply. One is
VO2 max as Lee (I think) mentioned, and the other is strength. If you
are Atlas (with the world on your shoulders) than the percentage of
total strength being expended at, say 25 mph, going up hill is so low
that you never even breath hard.

But having said that if you are Atlas than you weigh more so you have
more to carry up hill and thus must expend more energy.

As I said, it is complicated and there probably is a reason that the
hill-climbers are usually small light guys while sprinters are usually
heaver with bigger muscles :-)


My problem is that I can't convince anyone to join me for a ride unless
I promise to keep it under 25mi. Those are often people who like to
hammer it which I don't like to do.


Back in the primitive days people used do essentially the same thing
by training by distance, i.e., a quarter as hard as you can go
followed by a quarter at a walk, and so on.

As for your full tilt for hours, you really aren't doing that. What
you are doing is riding at an energy output that you can maintain for
some period. If you really were to exert 100% you might get a quarter
of a mile before you collapsed.


Yes, that is what I think as well. My limitation is more the breathing
and I don't enjoy being totally out of breath for a long time. I was
always an endurance kind of guy, never a good sprinter.

Yes, endurance is generally determined by oxygen intake. Yes, runners
and bicycle sprinters can perform at higher intensities but only for
short times. A "miler" will run three laps at about maximum oxygen
intake and the last lap he will accelerate and go into oxygen
deficiency.


Seen it but I was never good at that. Even in the army my better times
were long-haul. 5km on the sports field, xx kilometer on "hikes" in full
gear. With cycling it is similar. Yesterday was 43mi or 69km, to pick up
a $1.75 item in the valley that I urgently need. About 30% of that ride
was extra and just for fun. However, after this discussion I tried some
muscle max-out phases and paid for that the last 10mi which are almost
all uphill.

Sure, you exceeded the effort that you can maintain for the entire
ride.


Yup. Or in other words my age begins to show.


I see that sometimes where guys blast by me at high speed and then on
the next long hill I pass them.

I also see that sometimes guys blast by me at high speed and then go
on out of sight :-)


Oh yeah :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

John, have you ever ridden up a long 7% hill at 25 mph? Every once in awhile I'll be in the mood to catch someone that ran away from the group and would do it. It really messes up the rest of your day.

On 2016-12-15 11:26, wrote:
On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 9:48:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-13 18:43, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 07:54:13 -0800, Joerg

[...]

I see that sometimes where guys blast by me at high speed and
then on the next long hill I pass them.

I also see that sometimes guys blast by me at high speed and then
go on out of sight :-)


Oh yeah :-)

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

You don't get ANY training at all unless you have a really easy
warm-up period of about 10 minutes. You can only go anaerobic for
maybe 30 seconds for a non-athlete to perhaps a minute for a trained
athlete. the "80%" mark is what changes with training.


I never do specific warm-ups but on cold days I brace myself not to put
down the hammer right out of the garage. Training effects have been
great. There are many hills that I can easily climb today where I had to
hop off the bike and walk three years ago.


If you don't warm-up at perhaps 50-60% for the first ten minutes you
are mostly riding anaerobically and eating up your lactate reserves.


Does that mean every commuter eats up lactate? I can't imagine that.
They never warm up, they hop on and go. I did that for decades until my
commute distance shrunk to 100ft. In those days I was among the faster
longhaul road bike riders.


Now if after you warm up you ride well below your threshold you can
restore these reserves but it is VERY slow. One of the reasons I
stopped riding with my local group because their idea of a warm-up
was riding across the parking lot and out onto the street.

Within a couple of minutes they would be going flat out up a 7%
grade. And the guys that got to the top first would be figiting to
leave before the last arrived.


I try not to do that though sometimes I try a hill, see if I can get up
there in 2nd gear. Or maybe even 3rd. But I never race people uphill.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 7:43:17 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-15 11:26, wrote:
On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 9:48:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-13 18:43, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 07:54:13 -0800, Joerg

[...]

I see that sometimes where guys blast by me at high speed and
then on the next long hill I pass them.

I also see that sometimes guys blast by me at high speed and then
go on out of sight :-)


Oh yeah :-)

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

You don't get ANY training at all unless you have a really easy
warm-up period of about 10 minutes. You can only go anaerobic for
maybe 30 seconds for a non-athlete to perhaps a minute for a trained
athlete. the "80%" mark is what changes with training.


I never do specific warm-ups but on cold days I brace myself not to put
down the hammer right out of the garage. Training effects have been
great. There are many hills that I can easily climb today where I had to
hop off the bike and walk three years ago.


If you don't warm-up at perhaps 50-60% for the first ten minutes you
are mostly riding anaerobically and eating up your lactate reserves.


Does that mean every commuter eats up lactate? I can't imagine that.
They never warm up, they hop on and go. I did that for decades until my
commute distance shrunk to 100ft. In those days I was among the faster
longhaul road bike riders.


Now if after you warm up you ride well below your threshold you can
restore these reserves but it is VERY slow. One of the reasons I
stopped riding with my local group because their idea of a warm-up
was riding across the parking lot and out onto the street.

Within a couple of minutes they would be going flat out up a 7%
grade. And the guys that got to the top first would be figiting to
leave before the last arrived.


I try not to do that though sometimes I try a hill, see if I can get up
there in 2nd gear. Or maybe even 3rd. But I never race people uphill.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Commuters don't commute far. They have the luxury of getting to work rapidly and then sitting at a desk for the rest of the day. And if you eat some protein you can limit the muscle damage.

Where I live is different. If I get a job in the area I want I could be commuting 50 km each way. And because of the traffic I could even be faster counting both the stop and go traffic and the more direct path I could take as a bicyclist.

On 2016-12-16 09:50, wrote:
On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 7:43:17 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-15 11:26, wrote:

[...]

Now if after you warm up you ride well below your threshold you
can restore these reserves but it is VERY slow. One of the
reasons I stopped riding with my local group because their idea
of a warm-up was riding across the parking lot and out onto the
street.

Within a couple of minutes they would be going flat out up a 7%
grade. And the guys that got to the top first would be figiting
to leave before the last arrived.


I try not to do that though sometimes I try a hill, see if I can
get up there in 2nd gear. Or maybe even 3rd. But I never race
people uphill.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Commuters don't commute far.


It depends. The commuters from here to Rancho Cordova and areas around
the industrial parks down there have 20-25mi each way. In the morning it
is a breeze but back up means about 10mi of hills, for a net climb of
1300-1400ft. I do that once or twice a week. For me it's errand runs or
fun rides with a stop at a brewpub. No more growlers lately because I
became a "serial homebrewer". A Belgian Tripel is brewing downstairs
right now.


... They have the luxury of getting to work
rapidly and then sitting at a desk for the rest of the day. And if
you eat some protein you can limit the muscle damage.

Where I live is different. If I get a job in the area I want I could
be commuting 50 km each way. And because of the traffic I could even
be faster counting both the stop and go traffic and the more direct
path I could take as a bicyclist.


That's over 30mi each way. A lot. Not sure if I'd do that but if not
many hills probably yes.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 1:51:06 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-16 09:50, wrote:
On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 7:43:17 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-15 11:26, wrote:

[...]

Now if after you warm up you ride well below your threshold you
can restore these reserves but it is VERY slow. One of the
reasons I stopped riding with my local group because their idea
of a warm-up was riding across the parking lot and out onto the
street.

Within a couple of minutes they would be going flat out up a 7%
grade. And the guys that got to the top first would be figiting
to leave before the last arrived.


I try not to do that though sometimes I try a hill, see if I can
get up there in 2nd gear. Or maybe even 3rd. But I never race
people uphill.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Commuters don't commute far.


It depends. The commuters from here to Rancho Cordova and areas around
the industrial parks down there have 20-25mi each way. In the morning it
is a breeze but back up means about 10mi of hills, for a net climb of
1300-1400ft. I do that once or twice a week. For me it's errand runs or
fun rides with a stop at a brewpub. No more growlers lately because I
became a "serial homebrewer". A Belgian Tripel is brewing downstairs
right now.


... They have the luxury of getting to work
rapidly and then sitting at a desk for the rest of the day. And if
you eat some protein you can limit the muscle damage.

Where I live is different. If I get a job in the area I want I could
be commuting 50 km each way. And because of the traffic I could even
be faster counting both the stop and go traffic and the more direct
path I could take as a bicyclist.


That's over 30mi each way. A lot. Not sure if I'd do that but if not
many hills probably yes.

Except for the Dumbarton Bridge it's as flat as a pastry board. But there are 10 miles without bicycle lanes and you have to fight cars for right of way. On the return trip without deadlines you could add an extra 3 miles on and take some backroads.

On 2016-12-16 15:59, wrote:
On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 1:51:06 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-16 09:50, wrote:
On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 7:43:17 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-15 11:26, wrote:

[...]

Now if after you warm up you ride well below your threshold
you can restore these reserves but it is VERY slow. One of
the reasons I stopped riding with my local group because
their idea of a warm-up was riding across the parking lot and
out onto the street.

Within a couple of minutes they would be going flat out up a
7% grade. And the guys that got to the top first would be
figiting to leave before the last arrived.


I try not to do that though sometimes I try a hill, see if I
can get up there in 2nd gear. Or maybe even 3rd. But I never
race people uphill.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Commuters don't commute far.


It depends. The commuters from here to Rancho Cordova and areas
around the industrial parks down there have 20-25mi each way. In
the morning it is a breeze but back up means about 10mi of hills,
for a net climb of 1300-1400ft. I do that once or twice a week. For
me it's errand runs or fun rides with a stop at a brewpub. No more
growlers lately because I became a "serial homebrewer". A Belgian
Tripel is brewing downstairs right now.


... They have the luxury of getting to work rapidly and then
sitting at a desk for the rest of the day. And if you eat some
protein you can limit the muscle damage.

Where I live is different. If I get a job in the area I want I
could be commuting 50 km each way. And because of the traffic I
could even be faster counting both the stop and go traffic and
the more direct path I could take as a bicyclist.


That's over 30mi each way. A lot. Not sure if I'd do that but if
not many hills probably yes.

Except for the Dumbarton Bridge it's as flat as a pastry board. But
there are 10 miles without bicycle lanes and you have to fight cars
for right of way.


That would be the turn-off for me, I would not commute by bike under
those circumstance. Actually haven't when I worked in Rancho Cordova
because of this. Especially the trip home looked dangerous and sure
enough that is where a road biker got killed. Four-lane road uphill, she
was in the right lane, car in the left lane slowed to turn, driver
behind that was soused, couldn't stop in time, saw a "free" right lane
.... BAM.

Nowadays there is a bike lane so now I am using that road.


... On the return trip without deadlines you could add
an extra 3 miles on and take some backroads.


3mi is ok. I take that any time if it affords me a ride free of 55mph
traffic zipping by with drivers looking at their cell phones and stuff.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2016-12-17 14:05, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Fri, 16 Dec 2016
13:51:14 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-16 09:50, wrote:

[...]

... They have the luxury of getting to work
rapidly and then sitting at a desk for the rest of the day. And if
you eat some protein you can limit the muscle damage.

Where I live is different. If I get a job in the area I want I could
be commuting 50 km each way. And because of the traffic I could even
be faster counting both the stop and go traffic and the more direct
path I could take as a bicyclist.


That's over 30mi each way. A lot. Not sure if I'd do that but if not
many hills probably yes.

The furthest I've commuted was a daily trip of 21 miles each way, but
I know of one cyclist who commuted about double that for several
years, from Dunstable to central London.


We hired away a UK engineer, a very skinny guy. He had a commute
somewhere north of 30mi, also near London. This guy rode a bike every
day even in the driving rain. When he and his family arrived here in the
US he no longer rode. Considering the absence of bike facilities this
was fully understandable back then since that also caused me to stop riding.

Now that bike infrastructure is gradually being put in people start
riding bikes. Including myself. I guess for the auto industry that is
not a good thing because my yearly car mileage is down to 1200mi. 4000mi
on the bikes.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 12/17/2016 5:22 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-17 14:05, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Fri, 16 Dec 2016
13:51:14 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-16 09:50, wrote:

[...]

... They have the luxury of getting to work
rapidly and then sitting at a desk for the rest of the day. And if
you eat some protein you can limit the muscle damage.

Where I live is different. If I get a job in the area I want I could
be commuting 50 km each way. And because of the traffic I could even
be faster counting both the stop and go traffic and the more direct
path I could take as a bicyclist.


That's over 30mi each way. A lot. Not sure if I'd do that but if not
many hills probably yes.

The furthest I've commuted was a daily trip of 21 miles each way, but
I know of one cyclist who commuted about double that for several
years, from Dunstable to central London.


We hired away a UK engineer, a very skinny guy. He had a commute
somewhere north of 30mi, also near London. This guy rode a bike every
day even in the driving rain. When he and his family arrived here in the
US he no longer rode. Considering the absence of bike facilities this
was fully understandable back then since that also caused me to stop
riding.

When did you hire this guy? Where, exactly, did he ride in Britain?

I'm curious how he found a 30 mile commuting route near London that had
a significant proportion on bike facilities. What were they?

Now that bike infrastructure is gradually being put in people start
riding bikes. Including myself. I guess for the auto industry that is
not a good thing because my yearly car mileage is down to 1200mi. 4000mi
on the bikes.

Somehow, I don't think General Motors is going to notice. See
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/data/10315

"2016 experienced the largest annual increase in VMT since tracking
began in 1971."



--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 14:22:20 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-12-17 14:05, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Fri, 16 Dec 2016
13:51:14 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-16 09:50, wrote:

[...]

... They have the luxury of getting to work
rapidly and then sitting at a desk for the rest of the day. And if
you eat some protein you can limit the muscle damage.

Where I live is different. If I get a job in the area I want I could
be commuting 50 km each way. And because of the traffic I could even
be faster counting both the stop and go traffic and the more direct
path I could take as a bicyclist.


That's over 30mi each way. A lot. Not sure if I'd do that but if not
many hills probably yes.

The furthest I've commuted was a daily trip of 21 miles each way, but
I know of one cyclist who commuted about double that for several
years, from Dunstable to central London.


We hired away a UK engineer, a very skinny guy. He had a commute
somewhere north of 30mi, also near London. This guy rode a bike every
day even in the driving rain. When he and his family arrived here in the
US he no longer rode. Considering the absence of bike facilities this
was fully understandable back then since that also caused me to stop riding.

Yup. I had a machinist from Newcastle worked for me that did the same
thing. When he worked in England he and all his mates rode a push bike
to work and back. Then he immigrated and got a job at Pratt & Whitney
and never rode a bike again..... He suddenly had enough money to buy a
second hand car :-)

Now that bike infrastructure is gradually being put in people start
riding bikes. Including myself. I guess for the auto industry that is
not a good thing because my yearly car mileage is down to 1200mi. 4000mi
on the bikes.
--
cheers,

John B.

On 2016-12-17 21:12, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2016 5:22 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-17 14:05, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Fri, 16 Dec 2016
13:51:14 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-16 09:50, wrote:

[...]

... They have the luxury of getting to work
rapidly and then sitting at a desk for the rest of the day. And if
you eat some protein you can limit the muscle damage.

Where I live is different. If I get a job in the area I want I could
be commuting 50 km each way. And because of the traffic I could even
be faster counting both the stop and go traffic and the more direct
path I could take as a bicyclist.


That's over 30mi each way. A lot. Not sure if I'd do that but if not
many hills probably yes.

The furthest I've commuted was a daily trip of 21 miles each way, but
I know of one cyclist who commuted about double that for several
years, from Dunstable to central London.


We hired away a UK engineer, a very skinny guy. He had a commute
somewhere north of 30mi, also near London. This guy rode a bike every
day even in the driving rain. When he and his family arrived here in the
US he no longer rode. Considering the absence of bike facilities this
was fully understandable back then since that also caused me to stop
riding.

When did you hire this guy? Where, exactly, did he ride in Britain?


In 1998. I forgot the exact route.


I'm curious how he found a 30 mile commuting route near London that had
a significant proportion on bike facilities. What were they?


It's too long ago and we haven't remained in contact after our company
was acquired.

Bike facilities were not his main concern. However, he noticed exactly
the same effect that I noticed after moving here from Europe. American
motorists are generally more polite than European ones but unfortunately
also way less attentive to road conditions and the driving job in
general. With the advent of fancier cell phones that has become much
worse. On my ways down in the valley it doesn't matter to me as a
cyclist because the bike paths are mostly so far segregated that I don't
even hear the traffic. On the way up here, very different story.


Now that bike infrastructure is gradually being put in people start
riding bikes. Including myself. I guess for the auto industry that is
not a good thing because my yearly car mileage is down to 1200mi. 4000mi
on the bikes.

Somehow, I don't think General Motors is going to notice. See
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/data/10315

"2016 experienced the largest annual increase in VMT since tracking
began in 1971."


I meant my contribution to the auto industry. It is quite possible that
our current vehicles which are both around 20 years old might live many
more decades. Like the 1954 pickup truck my MTB buddy has.

Naturally, the vast majority of our neighbors does not live like that
and rides just about every mile inside a car. Sometimes even if it's
just a few hundred yards.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/