The Bikes are coming along

Op donderdag 13 mei 2021 om 18:46:25 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 9:29:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op donderdag 13 mei 2021 om 17:09:43 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 7:40:04 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 3:39:39 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 2:58:55 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 11:19:25 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 9:16:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 8:34:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 6:16:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 3:44:19 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 2:54:17 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 8:31:41 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 7:03:52 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 3:28:13 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 1:20:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Well, I am waiting for the FSA bottom bracket to install the FSA crankset into the Colnago. I used the Campy lugs and Crankset in the titanium Douglas. The Eddy Merckx is waiting for Italian threaded Campy Centaur crankset and the Lemond has had two people that want to test ride it. It shifts so well with the Di2 the only thing possible for them to complain about is the price and the late model Zurichs are going for more than half of my asking price for the complete bike. I have seen the Dura Ace Di2 selling for more than I'm asking for the bike. Not to mention it has Campy wheels on it. The bike with these not especially light Campy wheels on it weighs 20.4 lbs so there is no weight handicap.

The Douglas Vector is my riding bike right now but the Douglas Ti and the Eddy probably will be in the future. Comparing the Eddy and the Vector, the Eddy rides a lot softer and yet handles very well.

Now that the Felt gravel bike is finished I'm surprised that I haven't had a call on that. I'm asking less than for a medium grade over-the-counter bike. I suppose it's waiting for the right party. I wonder if I raise the price I wouldn't have people calling and trying to talk me down. Maybe it is so cheap that people think that it is not a good bike.

I found it pretty surprising that Campy Power Torque and Ultra-Torque cups look exactly the same and yet use slightly different sized bearings. Since the Power Torque bearings are slightly larger it isn't a case of the bearing being insufficient.

Surprising thing to me was that the locking nut in the Ultra-Torque bottom bracket had come completely loose but apparently the bearing friction kept the crankset together. Score 5 more points with me and the extreme good luck of it not coming apart on the road. It turns out that that bearing is on the large side of the tolerances so it didn't come loose on a ride. I was also lucky that the lock nut didn't come out and get lost. There is ALWAYS some tolerances that keep the Ultra Torque shaft from fully engaging so there will always be some movement there. I'm interested in seeing how reliable the splined Power Torque setup will be. The spines are tapered so it should go on tight enough that there is never any loosening motions.

When I stalled the Record Crank in the same cups it slid right in as it should.

The Campy stuff is mostly carbon but the Shimano stuff is not. What's more, although the Shimano stuff shifts more reliably. It is also a little less reliable. Especially the latest manual shifters that have the cable take a sharp right hand turn in the lever body. The previous generation had the shift cables coming out the side of the lever which was a much smoother turn to the cable run. But it would fill up with junk and stop shifting. That latest Dura Ace and Ultegra cranksets are hollow and built in two pieces and they break fairly often. The 105 on the other hand is one piece with the back hollowed out a little. That is a heavier but far more reliable crank. And the difference is only an ounce.

So I will stick with Campy. I may have to stop and give the cable adjuster a quarter turn once in awhile but for the most part they are what the doctor ordered.

I think that Jay said that he is riding slightly heavier and older Specialized because he thinks that it is more reliable. There are a lot of complaints from Specialized owners but the Trek owners main complaints seem to be that damned BB90 which they revamped into the T47 which should solve all of those problems. But come on - DISK BRAKES ONLY?
More dopiness, but at least this is bicycle related dopiness. I have never said I ride an older, heavier Specialized because it is more reliable. My light bike is a Trek Emonda SLR Race Shop Project One, which you should know because I've mentioned it about a million times. It's a great bike. Thank you Trek (got it employee pricing). My son just got a new S-Works disc Tarmac which he loves. He is threatening to get me the same frame so we can be twinsees (except in any meaningful way like watt output).

T47 is not a re-vamped BB90. T47 is a revamped PF30 shell with a 1mm larger, threaded ID. It has a 68mm width -- and not 90mm. Theoretically, one could tap a steel PF30 shell to take a T47 BB.
More idiocy from the moron. Where did I say anything about T47 other than it was a major improvement over BB90? It take a special kind of loser to say absolutely anything to contradict someone.
Dear dope, you said: "There are a lot of complaints from Specialized owners but the Trek owners main complaints seem to be that damned BB90 which they revamped into the T47 which should solve all of those problems."

"Revamp" means "an act of improving the form, structure, or appearance of something." A T47 is not a "revamped" BB90 and bears little resemblance to a BB90. You could state that it is a revamped PF30.. Trek adopted a different BB standard that is narrower with a larger OD and ID. Invented here in Oregon. https://www.thespoken.cc/t47-bb-standard
So what you're saying is that the T47 isn't a better form and structure than a BB90.
T47 is not an improved version of a BB90. It is an improved version of a PF30, and the difference is significant if you own a BB30 crank. For example, you might say that an M16 is a revamp of an AR15, but it is not a revamp of a M1.
Tell everyone here. Would you rather have the BB90 or the T47?
I've never owned a T47 BB, but the concept seems good. I've had no problems with my BB90 or any of the press-fit formats. I've changed BB30 bearings because of creaking only to find out that the problem was with some other interface.

BB90 shell width is a feature and supposedly produces a stiffer BB than PF30/T47, so it is more than just threads versus no-threads. I'm generally O.K. with whatever format comes on a particular bike if I like the bike.
So, it is your contention that Trek changed from a BB90 bottom bracket for no reason because you never had any problems with it. That is why the Trek Factory Stores have BB90 expert mechanics with special tools and special oversized bearings. And they changed to a "supposed" less adequate bearing. Well I guess you told us.
WTF is your issue? Is it medication time again? BB90 is just like BB86 or BB30 or PF30 with a different bearing ID/OD (37/24). You make out like it was some standard from outer-space that requires "special tools" and oversized bearings, etc., etc. when it presents exactly the same issues as BB86/BB30/PF30 -- issues that any dope (except you) can manage. I service my own BB90/86/30 with zero problems.

Specialized dumped its version of BB30 press-in on the latest S-Works Tarmac, which now uses an ISO threaded BB and not T47. All press-in formats are under fire, justifiably or not. Nobody in the industry takes Hambini, your hero, seriously -- but you end up with forum and internet driven "known problems" and issues that drive industry change, and Trek or Specialized will dump a format to keep its customers satisfied . I'm relaxing here with my son, who handles dealer care for Specialized for most of the west coast, and I asked him whether his dealers were complaining about Specialized OSBB/BB30, and his answer is "no." It's like a non-issue, but there can be a neurotic turn against a particular format -- particularly proprietary formats -- that pushes t he industry back to earlier standards. Look at what is happening to the proprietary super-bikes -- they're going away as manufacturers return to more standards parts line-ups, frame shapes, etc. I like that forward into the past trend because it is easier to spin in a BB cup that press in a bearing, but is it ultimately "better"? Who knows.
Jay, you're really going to have to make up your mind. Either BB90 was replaced with T47 or it was replaced with a threaded version of PF30. And YES there are special repair bearings for the BB90, the part number is MR24371, and they are FAR too large to put into a worn and clicking BB90 and it requires a special honing tool that the Trek Factory stores carry to open up the BB90 large enough so that the larger bearing can be installed properly. You're the one that started this stupid argument because you're falling to pieces in this Biden/Fauci administration that you wished so hard for.
I didn't start an argument -- I just said a T47 is not a "revamp" of a BB90. I agree that Trek chose T47 as a REPLACEMENT for BB90, so on that we agree. I also agree that T47 avoids some problems that can occur with all of the direct-fit bearing BBs such as bearing seat deformation, which may in extreme situations requiring re-boring, although one could simply install bearings with Loctite 609 or some other gap-filling bushing retainer. If Trek had consumer dissatisfaction (real or imagined), then I can see switching formats, but going back to a threaded format does have its compromises too.

I'm having a great time and my investments are growing.
Thank Joe for stealing the election.
You and Frank seem to be heavily focused on the fact that I have my concussion controlled by medication.
Well, not really -- although you do appear to be hallucinating at times.
But you're careful not to tell anyone what medications you're on.
I am not on any heart medications -- just meth and Chinese Trenbolone.
Jay, where did I say that there was any connection between BB90 and T47? I said that Trek revamped their upper like with T47 which they did. I'm sure that you love Biden but it is pretty bad when even the New York Times is saying that he is crazy. That he has managed to cause more damage to the US in 4 1/2 months than any other President in History.

But back on the subject of bikes, I really do think that you should look into a Lynsky or Litespeed. The ride is incredible. It's like the very finest steel bikes but with light weight. I had no problems throwing the bike up on my shoulder and doing four flights of stairs in total.
I'm glad you're feeling fit. Don't slip on your cleats. And back on the subject of bikes, I have more than I need -- and although the idea of a Ti bike is interesting (one of my closest biking buddies just ordered a Moots), whatever comes next will be a Specialized -- probably a Creo if we end up moving to the mountains.

-- Jay Beattie.
What are the lead times of a Moots today? I think your friend have to be very patient.

Lou
IIRC, it was quoted 12 weeks from order date, which I thought was pretty reasonable -- but who knows when it will actually arrive. He's an easy fit, and I don't think he's getting any kind of custom geometry. And even after arrival, parts are scarce, and he might have to wait to get it together.

He is patient and has other bicycles to ride. He got the Moots because he wants a super rain bike with discs and more tire clearance than his racing bikes but something nicer than his Kona CX bike that he currently uses for rain-riding -- although this year, he usually rode his Landshark with a clip-on fender and shot water in my face all the time. Grrr. And he lost weight and got super-strong all the sudden, so I was on his wheel more than in the olden days.

-- Jay Beattie.

12 weeks is reasonable but I remember someone inquiring after the lead time of a RSL and he got as answer November-December. Ouch. Parts are also difficult to get. I use mine also for winter and rain rides on the road. In the summer it is for gravel riding. Just put my gravel wheels on yesterday. Tomorrow a gravel ride. Really great bike. Put 6000 km on that bike alone last year.

Lou

On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:01:45 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op donderdag 13 mei 2021 om 18:46:25 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 9:29:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op donderdag 13 mei 2021 om 17:09:43 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 7:40:04 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 3:39:39 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 2:58:55 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 11:19:25 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 9:16:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 8:34:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 6:16:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 3:44:19 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 2:54:17 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 8:31:41 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 7:03:52 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 3:28:13 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 1:20:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Well, I am waiting for the FSA bottom bracket to install the FSA crankset into the Colnago. I used the Campy lugs and Crankset in the titanium Douglas. The Eddy Merckx is waiting for Italian threaded Campy Centaur crankset and the Lemond has had two people that want to test ride it. It shifts so well with the Di2 the only thing possible for them to complain about is the price and the late model Zurichs are going for more than half of my asking price for the complete bike. I have seen the Dura Ace Di2 selling for more than I'm asking for the bike. Not to mention it has Campy wheels on it. The bike with these not especially light Campy wheels on it weighs 20.4 lbs so there is no weight handicap.

The Douglas Vector is my riding bike right now but the Douglas Ti and the Eddy probably will be in the future. Comparing the Eddy and the Vector, the Eddy rides a lot softer and yet handles very well.

Now that the Felt gravel bike is finished I'm surprised that I haven't had a call on that. I'm asking less than for a medium grade over-the-counter bike. I suppose it's waiting for the right party. I wonder if I raise the price I wouldn't have people calling and trying to talk me down. Maybe it is so cheap that people think that it is not a good bike.

I found it pretty surprising that Campy Power Torque and Ultra-Torque cups look exactly the same and yet use slightly different sized bearings. Since the Power Torque bearings are slightly larger it isn't a case of the bearing being insufficient.

Surprising thing to me was that the locking nut in the Ultra-Torque bottom bracket had come completely loose but apparently the bearing friction kept the crankset together. Score 5 more points with me and the extreme good luck of it not coming apart on the road. It turns out that that bearing is on the large side of the tolerances so it didn't come loose on a ride. I was also lucky that the lock nut didn't come out and get lost. There is ALWAYS some tolerances that keep the Ultra Torque shaft from fully engaging so there will always be some movement there. I'm interested in seeing how reliable the splined Power Torque setup will be. The spines are tapered so it should go on tight enough that there is never any loosening motions.

When I stalled the Record Crank in the same cups it slid right in as it should.

The Campy stuff is mostly carbon but the Shimano stuff is not. What's more, although the Shimano stuff shifts more reliably. It is also a little less reliable. Especially the latest manual shifters that have the cable take a sharp right hand turn in the lever body. The previous generation had the shift cables coming out the side of the lever which was a much smoother turn to the cable run. But it would fill up with junk and stop shifting. That latest Dura Ace and Ultegra cranksets are hollow and built in two pieces and they break fairly often. The 105 on the other hand is one piece with the back hollowed out a little. That is a heavier but far more reliable crank. And the difference is only an ounce.

So I will stick with Campy. I may have to stop and give the cable adjuster a quarter turn once in awhile but for the most part they are what the doctor ordered.

I think that Jay said that he is riding slightly heavier and older Specialized because he thinks that it is more reliable. There are a lot of complaints from Specialized owners but the Trek owners main complaints seem to be that damned BB90 which they revamped into the T47 which should solve all of those problems. But come on - DISK BRAKES ONLY?
More dopiness, but at least this is bicycle related dopiness. I have never said I ride an older, heavier Specialized because it is more reliable. My light bike is a Trek Emonda SLR Race Shop Project One, which you should know because I've mentioned it about a million times. It's a great bike. Thank you Trek (got it employee pricing). My son just got a new S-Works disc Tarmac which he loves. He is threatening to get me the same frame so we can be twinsees (except in any meaningful way like watt output).

T47 is not a re-vamped BB90. T47 is a revamped PF30 shell with a 1mm larger, threaded ID. It has a 68mm width -- and not 90mm. Theoretically, one could tap a steel PF30 shell to take a T47 BB.
More idiocy from the moron. Where did I say anything about T47 other than it was a major improvement over BB90? It take a special kind of loser to say absolutely anything to contradict someone.
Dear dope, you said: "There are a lot of complaints from Specialized owners but the Trek owners main complaints seem to be that damned BB90 which they revamped into the T47 which should solve all of those problems."

"Revamp" means "an act of improving the form, structure, or appearance of something." A T47 is not a "revamped" BB90 and bears little resemblance to a BB90. You could state that it is a revamped PF30. Trek adopted a different BB standard that is narrower with a larger OD and ID. Invented here in Oregon. https://www.thespoken.cc/t47-bb-standard
So what you're saying is that the T47 isn't a better form and structure than a BB90.
T47 is not an improved version of a BB90. It is an improved version of a PF30, and the difference is significant if you own a BB30 crank. For example, you might say that an M16 is a revamp of an AR15, but it is not a revamp of a M1.
Tell everyone here. Would you rather have the BB90 or the T47?
I've never owned a T47 BB, but the concept seems good. I've had no problems with my BB90 or any of the press-fit formats. I've changed BB30 bearings because of creaking only to find out that the problem was with some other interface.

BB90 shell width is a feature and supposedly produces a stiffer BB than PF30/T47, so it is more than just threads versus no-threads. I'm generally O.K. with whatever format comes on a particular bike if I like the bike.
So, it is your contention that Trek changed from a BB90 bottom bracket for no reason because you never had any problems with it. That is why the Trek Factory Stores have BB90 expert mechanics with special tools and special oversized bearings. And they changed to a "supposed" less adequate bearing. Well I guess you told us.
WTF is your issue? Is it medication time again? BB90 is just like BB86 or BB30 or PF30 with a different bearing ID/OD (37/24). You make out like it was some standard from outer-space that requires "special tools" and oversized bearings, etc., etc. when it presents exactly the same issues as BB86/BB30/PF30 -- issues that any dope (except you) can manage. I service my own BB90/86/30 with zero problems.

Specialized dumped its version of BB30 press-in on the latest S-Works Tarmac, which now uses an ISO threaded BB and not T47. All press-in formats are under fire, justifiably or not. Nobody in the industry takes Hambini, your hero, seriously -- but you end up with forum and internet driven "known problems" and issues that drive industry change, and Trek or Specialized will dump a format to keep its customers satisfied . I'm relaxing here with my son, who handles dealer care for Specialized for most of the west coast, and I asked him whether his dealers were complaining about Specialized OSBB/BB30, and his answer is "no." It's like a non-issue, but there can be a neurotic turn against a particular format -- particularly proprietary formats -- that pushes t he industry back to earlier standards. Look at what is happening to the proprietary super-bikes -- they're going away as manufacturers return to more standards parts line-ups, frame shapes, etc. I like that forward into the past trend because it is easier to spin in a BB cup that press in a bearing, but is it ultimately "better"? Who knows.
Jay, you're really going to have to make up your mind. Either BB90 was replaced with T47 or it was replaced with a threaded version of PF30. And YES there are special repair bearings for the BB90, the part number is MR24371, and they are FAR too large to put into a worn and clicking BB90 and it requires a special honing tool that the Trek Factory stores carry to open up the BB90 large enough so that the larger bearing can be installed properly. You're the one that started this stupid argument because you're falling to pieces in this Biden/Fauci administration that you wished so hard for.
I didn't start an argument -- I just said a T47 is not a "revamp" of a BB90. I agree that Trek chose T47 as a REPLACEMENT for BB90, so on that we agree. I also agree that T47 avoids some problems that can occur with all of the direct-fit bearing BBs such as bearing seat deformation, which may in extreme situations requiring re-boring, although one could simply install bearings with Loctite 609 or some other gap-filling bushing retainer. If Trek had consumer dissatisfaction (real or imagined), then I can see switching formats, but going back to a threaded format does have its compromises too.

I'm having a great time and my investments are growing.
Thank Joe for stealing the election.
You and Frank seem to be heavily focused on the fact that I have my concussion controlled by medication.
Well, not really -- although you do appear to be hallucinating at times.
But you're careful not to tell anyone what medications you're on.
I am not on any heart medications -- just meth and Chinese Trenbolone.
Jay, where did I say that there was any connection between BB90 and T47? I said that Trek revamped their upper like with T47 which they did. I'm sure that you love Biden but it is pretty bad when even the New York Times is saying that he is crazy. That he has managed to cause more damage to the US in 4 1/2 months than any other President in History.

But back on the subject of bikes, I really do think that you should look into a Lynsky or Litespeed. The ride is incredible. It's like the very finest steel bikes but with light weight. I had no problems throwing the bike up on my shoulder and doing four flights of stairs in total.
I'm glad you're feeling fit. Don't slip on your cleats. And back on the subject of bikes, I have more than I need -- and although the idea of a Ti bike is interesting (one of my closest biking buddies just ordered a Moots), whatever comes next will be a Specialized -- probably a Creo if we end up moving to the mountains.

-- Jay Beattie.
What are the lead times of a Moots today? I think your friend have to be very patient.

Lou
IIRC, it was quoted 12 weeks from order date, which I thought was pretty reasonable -- but who knows when it will actually arrive. He's an easy fit, and I don't think he's getting any kind of custom geometry. And even after arrival, parts are scarce, and he might have to wait to get it together.

He is patient and has other bicycles to ride. He got the Moots because he wants a super rain bike with discs and more tire clearance than his racing bikes but something nicer than his Kona CX bike that he currently uses for rain-riding -- although this year, he usually rode his Landshark with a clip-on fender and shot water in my face all the time. Grrr. And he lost weight and got super-strong all the sudden, so I was on his wheel more than in the olden days.

-- Jay Beattie.
12 weeks is reasonable but I remember someone inquiring after the lead time of a RSL and he got as answer November-December. Ouch. Parts are also difficult to get. I use mine also for winter and rain rides on the road. In the summer it is for gravel riding. Just put my gravel wheels on yesterday. Tomorrow a gravel ride. Really great bike. Put 6000 km on that bike alone last year.

I ordered a carbon fiber saddle with carbon fiber rails on it and it weighs 238 grams. Yesterday I ordered a Bontrager saddle that probably has a carbon seat with a cushioned cover and titanium rails and it weighs 201 grams and will fit in the mounts of a titanium seat post.

One of the things that is rather amazing to me is that they used to have this huge selection of saddles and you had to find one that worked for you. Now most of the saddles are almost identical and they are all comfortable to some degree.

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 11:13:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:01:45 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op donderdag 13 mei 2021 om 18:46:25 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 9:29:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op donderdag 13 mei 2021 om 17:09:43 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 7:40:04 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 3:39:39 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 2:58:55 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 11:19:25 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 9:16:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 8:34:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 6:16:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 3:44:19 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 2:54:17 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 8:31:41 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 7:03:52 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 3:28:13 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 1:20:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Well, I am waiting for the FSA bottom bracket to install the FSA crankset into the Colnago. I used the Campy lugs and Crankset in the titanium Douglas. The Eddy Merckx is waiting for Italian threaded Campy Centaur crankset and the Lemond has had two people that want to test ride it. It shifts so well with the Di2 the only thing possible for them to complain about is the price and the late model Zurichs are going for more than half of my asking price for the complete bike. I have seen the Dura Ace Di2 selling for more than I'm asking for the bike. Not to mention it has Campy wheels on it. The bike with these not especially light Campy wheels on it weighs 20.4 lbs so there is no weight handicap.

The Douglas Vector is my riding bike right now but the Douglas Ti and the Eddy probably will be in the future. Comparing the Eddy and the Vector, the Eddy rides a lot softer and yet handles very well.

Now that the Felt gravel bike is finished I'm surprised that I haven't had a call on that. I'm asking less than for a medium grade over-the-counter bike. I suppose it's waiting for the right party. I wonder if I raise the price I wouldn't have people calling and trying to talk me down. Maybe it is so cheap that people think that it is not a good bike.

I found it pretty surprising that Campy Power Torque and Ultra-Torque cups look exactly the same and yet use slightly different sized bearings. Since the Power Torque bearings are slightly larger it isn't a case of the bearing being insufficient.

Surprising thing to me was that the locking nut in the Ultra-Torque bottom bracket had come completely loose but apparently the bearing friction kept the crankset together. Score 5 more points with me and the extreme good luck of it not coming apart on the road. It turns out that that bearing is on the large side of the tolerances so it didn't come loose on a ride. I was also lucky that the lock nut didn't come out and get lost. There is ALWAYS some tolerances that keep the Ultra Torque shaft from fully engaging so there will always be some movement there. I'm interested in seeing how reliable the splined Power Torque setup will be.. The spines are tapered so it should go on tight enough that there is never any loosening motions.

When I stalled the Record Crank in the same cups it slid right in as it should.

The Campy stuff is mostly carbon but the Shimano stuff is not. What's more, although the Shimano stuff shifts more reliably. It is also a little less reliable. Especially the latest manual shifters that have the cable take a sharp right hand turn in the lever body.. The previous generation had the shift cables coming out the side of the lever which was a much smoother turn to the cable run. But it would fill up with junk and stop shifting. That latest Dura Ace and Ultegra cranksets are hollow and built in two pieces and they break fairly often. The 105 on the other hand is one piece with the back hollowed out a little. That is a heavier but far more reliable crank. And the difference is only an ounce.

So I will stick with Campy. I may have to stop and give the cable adjuster a quarter turn once in awhile but for the most part they are what the doctor ordered.

I think that Jay said that he is riding slightly heavier and older Specialized because he thinks that it is more reliable. There are a lot of complaints from Specialized owners but the Trek owners main complaints seem to be that damned BB90 which they revamped into the T47 which should solve all of those problems. But come on - DISK BRAKES ONLY?
More dopiness, but at least this is bicycle related dopiness. I have never said I ride an older, heavier Specialized because it is more reliable. My light bike is a Trek Emonda SLR Race Shop Project One, which you should know because I've mentioned it about a million times. It's a great bike. Thank you Trek (got it employee pricing). My son just got a new S-Works disc Tarmac which he loves. He is threatening to get me the same frame so we can be twinsees (except in any meaningful way like watt output).

T47 is not a re-vamped BB90. T47 is a revamped PF30 shell with a 1mm larger, threaded ID. It has a 68mm width -- and not 90mm. Theoretically, one could tap a steel PF30 shell to take a T47 BB..
More idiocy from the moron. Where did I say anything about T47 other than it was a major improvement over BB90? It take a special kind of loser to say absolutely anything to contradict someone.
Dear dope, you said: "There are a lot of complaints from Specialized owners but the Trek owners main complaints seem to be that damned BB90 which they revamped into the T47 which should solve all of those problems."

"Revamp" means "an act of improving the form, structure, or appearance of something." A T47 is not a "revamped" BB90 and bears little resemblance to a BB90. You could state that it is a revamped PF30. Trek adopted a different BB standard that is narrower with a larger OD and ID. Invented here in Oregon. https://www.thespoken.cc/t47-bb-standard
So what you're saying is that the T47 isn't a better form and structure than a BB90.
T47 is not an improved version of a BB90. It is an improved version of a PF30, and the difference is significant if you own a BB30 crank. For example, you might say that an M16 is a revamp of an AR15, but it is not a revamp of a M1.
Tell everyone here. Would you rather have the BB90 or the T47?
I've never owned a T47 BB, but the concept seems good.. I've had no problems with my BB90 or any of the press-fit formats. I've changed BB30 bearings because of creaking only to find out that the problem was with some other interface.

BB90 shell width is a feature and supposedly produces a stiffer BB than PF30/T47, so it is more than just threads versus no-threads. I'm generally O.K. with whatever format comes on a particular bike if I like the bike.
So, it is your contention that Trek changed from a BB90 bottom bracket for no reason because you never had any problems with it. That is why the Trek Factory Stores have BB90 expert mechanics with special tools and special oversized bearings. And they changed to a "supposed" less adequate bearing. Well I guess you told us.
WTF is your issue? Is it medication time again? BB90 is just like BB86 or BB30 or PF30 with a different bearing ID/OD (37/24). You make out like it was some standard from outer-space that requires "special tools" and oversized bearings, etc., etc. when it presents exactly the same issues as BB86/BB30/PF30 -- issues that any dope (except you) can manage. I service my own BB90/86/30 with zero problems.

Specialized dumped its version of BB30 press-in on the latest S-Works Tarmac, which now uses an ISO threaded BB and not T47. All press-in formats are under fire, justifiably or not. Nobody in the industry takes Hambini, your hero, seriously -- but you end up with forum and internet driven "known problems" and issues that drive industry change, and Trek or Specialized will dump a format to keep its customers satisfied . I'm relaxing here with my son, who handles dealer care for Specialized for most of the west coast, and I asked him whether his dealers were complaining about Specialized OSBB/BB30, and his answer is "no." It's like a non-issue, but there can be a neurotic turn against a particular format -- particularly proprietary formats -- that pushes t he industry back to earlier standards. Look at what is happening to the proprietary super-bikes -- they're going away as manufacturers return to more standards parts line-ups, frame shapes, etc. I like that forward into the past trend because it is easier to spin in a BB cup that press in a bearing, but is it ultimately "better"? Who knows.
Jay, you're really going to have to make up your mind. Either BB90 was replaced with T47 or it was replaced with a threaded version of PF30. And YES there are special repair bearings for the BB90, the part number is MR24371, and they are FAR too large to put into a worn and clicking BB90 and it requires a special honing tool that the Trek Factory stores carry to open up the BB90 large enough so that the larger bearing can be installed properly. You're the one that started this stupid argument because you're falling to pieces in this Biden/Fauci administration that you wished so hard for.
I didn't start an argument -- I just said a T47 is not a "revamp" of a BB90. I agree that Trek chose T47 as a REPLACEMENT for BB90, so on that we agree. I also agree that T47 avoids some problems that can occur with all of the direct-fit bearing BBs such as bearing seat deformation, which may in extreme situations requiring re-boring, although one could simply install bearings with Loctite 609 or some other gap-filling bushing retainer. If Trek had consumer dissatisfaction (real or imagined), then I can see switching formats, but going back to a threaded format does have its compromises too.

I'm having a great time and my investments are growing.
Thank Joe for stealing the election.
You and Frank seem to be heavily focused on the fact that I have my concussion controlled by medication.
Well, not really -- although you do appear to be hallucinating at times.
But you're careful not to tell anyone what medications you're on.
I am not on any heart medications -- just meth and Chinese Trenbolone.
Jay, where did I say that there was any connection between BB90 and T47? I said that Trek revamped their upper like with T47 which they did. I'm sure that you love Biden but it is pretty bad when even the New York Times is saying that he is crazy. That he has managed to cause more damage to the US in 4 1/2 months than any other President in History.

But back on the subject of bikes, I really do think that you should look into a Lynsky or Litespeed. The ride is incredible. It's like the very finest steel bikes but with light weight. I had no problems throwing the bike up on my shoulder and doing four flights of stairs in total.
I'm glad you're feeling fit. Don't slip on your cleats. And back on the subject of bikes, I have more than I need -- and although the idea of a Ti bike is interesting (one of my closest biking buddies just ordered a Moots), whatever comes next will be a Specialized -- probably a Creo if we end up moving to the mountains.

-- Jay Beattie.
What are the lead times of a Moots today? I think your friend have to be very patient.

Lou
IIRC, it was quoted 12 weeks from order date, which I thought was pretty reasonable -- but who knows when it will actually arrive. He's an easy fit, and I don't think he's getting any kind of custom geometry. And even after arrival, parts are scarce, and he might have to wait to get it together.

He is patient and has other bicycles to ride. He got the Moots because he wants a super rain bike with discs and more tire clearance than his racing bikes but something nicer than his Kona CX bike that he currently uses for rain-riding -- although this year, he usually rode his Landshark with a clip-on fender and shot water in my face all the time. Grrr. And he lost weight and got super-strong all the sudden, so I was on his wheel more than in the olden days.

-- Jay Beattie.
12 weeks is reasonable but I remember someone inquiring after the lead time of a RSL and he got as answer November-December. Ouch. Parts are also difficult to get. I use mine also for winter and rain rides on the road. In the summer it is for gravel riding. Just put my gravel wheels on yesterday.. Tomorrow a gravel ride. Really great bike. Put 6000 km on that bike alone last year.
I ordered a carbon fiber saddle with carbon fiber rails on it and it weighs 238 grams. Yesterday I ordered a Bontrager saddle that probably has a carbon seat with a cushioned cover and titanium rails and it weighs 201 grams and will fit in the mounts of a titanium seat post.

One of the things that is rather amazing to me is that they used to have this huge selection of saddles and you had to find one that worked for you. Now most of the saddles are almost identical and they are all comfortable to some degree.

Who is "they"? There are now more saddle choices than ever. https://www.universalcycles.com/search.php?q=saddles And the designs are very different, particularly with the Specialized and Pro shorty saddles.

Imagine going into your Schwinn shop in 1965 and asking to have your butt measured on the assometer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMbZ...tinRasmusse n

-- Jay Beattie.

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 4:10:09 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 11:13:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:01:45 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op donderdag 13 mei 2021 om 18:46:25 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 9:29:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op donderdag 13 mei 2021 om 17:09:43 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 7:40:04 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 3:39:39 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 2:58:55 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 11:19:25 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 9:16:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 8:34:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 6:16:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 3:44:19 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 2:54:17 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 8:31:41 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 7:03:52 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 3:28:13 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 1:20:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Well, I am waiting for the FSA bottom bracket to install the FSA crankset into the Colnago. I used the Campy lugs and Crankset in the titanium Douglas. The Eddy Merckx is waiting for Italian threaded Campy Centaur crankset and the Lemond has had two people that want to test ride it. It shifts so well with the Di2 the only thing possible for them to complain about is the price and the late model Zurichs are going for more than half of my asking price for the complete bike. I have seen the Dura Ace Di2 selling for more than I'm asking for the bike. Not to mention it has Campy wheels on it. The bike with these not especially light Campy wheels on it weighs 20.4 lbs so there is no weight handicap.

The Douglas Vector is my riding bike right now but the Douglas Ti and the Eddy probably will be in the future. Comparing the Eddy and the Vector, the Eddy rides a lot softer and yet handles very well.

Now that the Felt gravel bike is finished I'm surprised that I haven't had a call on that. I'm asking less than for a medium grade over-the-counter bike. I suppose it's waiting for the right party. I wonder if I raise the price I wouldn't have people calling and trying to talk me down. Maybe it is so cheap that people think that it is not a good bike.

I found it pretty surprising that Campy Power Torque and Ultra-Torque cups look exactly the same and yet use slightly different sized bearings. Since the Power Torque bearings are slightly larger it isn't a case of the bearing being insufficient.

Surprising thing to me was that the locking nut in the Ultra-Torque bottom bracket had come completely loose but apparently the bearing friction kept the crankset together. Score 5 more points with me and the extreme good luck of it not coming apart on the road. It turns out that that bearing is on the large side of the tolerances so it didn't come loose on a ride. I was also lucky that the lock nut didn't come out and get lost. There is ALWAYS some tolerances that keep the Ultra Torque shaft from fully engaging so there will always be some movement there. I'm interested in seeing how reliable the splined Power Torque setup will be. The spines are tapered so it should go on tight enough that there is never any loosening motions.

When I stalled the Record Crank in the same cups it slid right in as it should.

The Campy stuff is mostly carbon but the Shimano stuff is not. What's more, although the Shimano stuff shifts more reliably. It is also a little less reliable. Especially the latest manual shifters that have the cable take a sharp right hand turn in the lever body. The previous generation had the shift cables coming out the side of the lever which was a much smoother turn to the cable run. But it would fill up with junk and stop shifting. That latest Dura Ace and Ultegra cranksets are hollow and built in two pieces and they break fairly often. The 105 on the other hand is one piece with the back hollowed out a little. That is a heavier but far more reliable crank. And the difference is only an ounce.

So I will stick with Campy. I may have to stop and give the cable adjuster a quarter turn once in awhile but for the most part they are what the doctor ordered.

I think that Jay said that he is riding slightly heavier and older Specialized because he thinks that it is more reliable. There are a lot of complaints from Specialized owners but the Trek owners main complaints seem to be that damned BB90 which they revamped into the T47 which should solve all of those problems. But come on - DISK BRAKES ONLY?
More dopiness, but at least this is bicycle related dopiness. I have never said I ride an older, heavier Specialized because it is more reliable. My light bike is a Trek Emonda SLR Race Shop Project One, which you should know because I've mentioned it about a million times. It's a great bike. Thank you Trek (got it employee pricing). My son just got a new S-Works disc Tarmac which he loves. He is threatening to get me the same frame so we can be twinsees (except in any meaningful way like watt output).

T47 is not a re-vamped BB90. T47 is a revamped PF30 shell with a 1mm larger, threaded ID. It has a 68mm width -- and not 90mm. Theoretically, one could tap a steel PF30 shell to take a T47 BB.
More idiocy from the moron. Where did I say anything about T47 other than it was a major improvement over BB90? It take a special kind of loser to say absolutely anything to contradict someone.
Dear dope, you said: "There are a lot of complaints from Specialized owners but the Trek owners main complaints seem to be that damned BB90 which they revamped into the T47 which should solve all of those problems."

"Revamp" means "an act of improving the form, structure, or appearance of something." A T47 is not a "revamped" BB90 and bears little resemblance to a BB90. You could state that it is a revamped PF30. Trek adopted a different BB standard that is narrower with a larger OD and ID. Invented here in Oregon. https://www.thespoken.cc/t47-bb-standard
So what you're saying is that the T47 isn't a better form and structure than a BB90.
T47 is not an improved version of a BB90. It is an improved version of a PF30, and the difference is significant if you own a BB30 crank. For example, you might say that an M16 is a revamp of an AR15, but it is not a revamp of a M1.
Tell everyone here. Would you rather have the BB90 or the T47?
I've never owned a T47 BB, but the concept seems good. I've had no problems with my BB90 or any of the press-fit formats. I've changed BB30 bearings because of creaking only to find out that the problem was with some other interface.

BB90 shell width is a feature and supposedly produces a stiffer BB than PF30/T47, so it is more than just threads versus no-threads. I'm generally O.K. with whatever format comes on a particular bike if I like the bike.
So, it is your contention that Trek changed from a BB90 bottom bracket for no reason because you never had any problems with it. That is why the Trek Factory Stores have BB90 expert mechanics with special tools and special oversized bearings. And they changed to a "supposed" less adequate bearing. Well I guess you told us.
WTF is your issue? Is it medication time again? BB90 is just like BB86 or BB30 or PF30 with a different bearing ID/OD (37/24). You make out like it was some standard from outer-space that requires "special tools" and oversized bearings, etc., etc. when it presents exactly the same issues as BB86/BB30/PF30 -- issues that any dope (except you) can manage. I service my own BB90/86/30 with zero problems.

Specialized dumped its version of BB30 press-in on the latest S-Works Tarmac, which now uses an ISO threaded BB and not T47. All press-in formats are under fire, justifiably or not. Nobody in the industry takes Hambini, your hero, seriously -- but you end up with forum and internet driven "known problems" and issues that drive industry change, and Trek or Specialized will dump a format to keep its customers satisfied . I'm relaxing here with my son, who handles dealer care for Specialized for most of the west coast, and I asked him whether his dealers were complaining about Specialized OSBB/BB30, and his answer is "no." It's like a non-issue, but there can be a neurotic turn against a particular format -- particularly proprietary formats -- that pushes t he industry back to earlier standards. Look at what is happening to the proprietary super-bikes -- they're going away as manufacturers return to more standards parts line-ups, frame shapes, etc. I like that forward into the past trend because it is easier to spin in a BB cup that press in a bearing, but is it ultimately "better"? Who knows.
Jay, you're really going to have to make up your mind. Either BB90 was replaced with T47 or it was replaced with a threaded version of PF30. And YES there are special repair bearings for the BB90, the part number is MR24371, and they are FAR too large to put into a worn and clicking BB90 and it requires a special honing tool that the Trek Factory stores carry to open up the BB90 large enough so that the larger bearing can be installed properly. You're the one that started this stupid argument because you're falling to pieces in this Biden/Fauci administration that you wished so hard for.
I didn't start an argument -- I just said a T47 is not a "revamp" of a BB90. I agree that Trek chose T47 as a REPLACEMENT for BB90, so on that we agree. I also agree that T47 avoids some problems that can occur with all of the direct-fit bearing BBs such as bearing seat deformation, which may in extreme situations requiring re-boring, although one could simply install bearings with Loctite 609 or some other gap-filling bushing retainer. If Trek had consumer dissatisfaction (real or imagined), then I can see switching formats, but going back to a threaded format does have its compromises too.

I'm having a great time and my investments are growing.
Thank Joe for stealing the election.
You and Frank seem to be heavily focused on the fact that I have my concussion controlled by medication.
Well, not really -- although you do appear to be hallucinating at times.
But you're careful not to tell anyone what medications you're on.
I am not on any heart medications -- just meth and Chinese Trenbolone.
Jay, where did I say that there was any connection between BB90 and T47? I said that Trek revamped their upper like with T47 which they did. I'm sure that you love Biden but it is pretty bad when even the New York Times is saying that he is crazy. That he has managed to cause more damage to the US in 4 1/2 months than any other President in History.

But back on the subject of bikes, I really do think that you should look into a Lynsky or Litespeed. The ride is incredible. It's like the very finest steel bikes but with light weight. I had no problems throwing the bike up on my shoulder and doing four flights of stairs in total.
I'm glad you're feeling fit. Don't slip on your cleats. And back on the subject of bikes, I have more than I need -- and although the idea of a Ti bike is interesting (one of my closest biking buddies just ordered a Moots), whatever comes next will be a Specialized -- probably a Creo if we end up moving to the mountains.

-- Jay Beattie.
What are the lead times of a Moots today? I think your friend have to be very patient.

Lou
IIRC, it was quoted 12 weeks from order date, which I thought was pretty reasonable -- but who knows when it will actually arrive. He's an easy fit, and I don't think he's getting any kind of custom geometry. And even after arrival, parts are scarce, and he might have to wait to get it together.

He is patient and has other bicycles to ride. He got the Moots because he wants a super rain bike with discs and more tire clearance than his racing bikes but something nicer than his Kona CX bike that he currently uses for rain-riding -- although this year, he usually rode his Landshark with a clip-on fender and shot water in my face all the time. Grrr. And he lost weight and got super-strong all the sudden, so I was on his wheel more than in the olden days.

-- Jay Beattie.
12 weeks is reasonable but I remember someone inquiring after the lead time of a RSL and he got as answer November-December. Ouch. Parts are also difficult to get. I use mine also for winter and rain rides on the road. In the summer it is for gravel riding. Just put my gravel wheels on yesterday. Tomorrow a gravel ride. Really great bike. Put 6000 km on that bike alone last year.
I ordered a carbon fiber saddle with carbon fiber rails on it and it weighs 238 grams. Yesterday I ordered a Bontrager saddle that probably has a carbon seat with a cushioned cover and titanium rails and it weighs 201 grams and will fit in the mounts of a titanium seat post.

One of the things that is rather amazing to me is that they used to have this huge selection of saddles and you had to find one that worked for you. Now most of the saddles are almost identical and they are all comfortable to some degree.
Who is "they"? There are now more saddle choices than ever. https://www.universalcycles.com/search.php?q=saddles And the designs are very different, particularly with the Specialized and Pro shorty saddles.

Imagine going into your Schwinn shop in 1965 and asking to have your butt measured on the assometer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMbZ...tinRasmusse n

Well, no one can say that you don't have a great imagination. The width of the back of the saddle has to be at least a certain width but wider than that doesn't make a wit of difference. There are two points of interest. Does the nose of the saddle drag on your thighs and is the rear of the saddle wide enough to give you support. Almost all of the saddles you can buy meet these criteria. One additional item is it works better if you're a man and it has a cutout.

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 4:10:09 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 11:13:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:01:45 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op donderdag 13 mei 2021 om 18:46:25 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 9:29:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op donderdag 13 mei 2021 om 17:09:43 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 7:40:04 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 3:39:39 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 2:58:55 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 11:19:25 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 9:16:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 8:34:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 6:16:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 3:44:19 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 2:54:17 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 8:31:41 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 7:03:52 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 3:28:13 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 1:20:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Well, I am waiting for the FSA bottom bracket to install the FSA crankset into the Colnago. I used the Campy lugs and Crankset in the titanium Douglas. The Eddy Merckx is waiting for Italian threaded Campy Centaur crankset and the Lemond has had two people that want to test ride it. It shifts so well with the Di2 the only thing possible for them to complain about is the price and the late model Zurichs are going for more than half of my asking price for the complete bike. I have seen the Dura Ace Di2 selling for more than I'm asking for the bike. Not to mention it has Campy wheels on it. The bike with these not especially light Campy wheels on it weighs 20.4 lbs so there is no weight handicap.

The Douglas Vector is my riding bike right now but the Douglas Ti and the Eddy probably will be in the future. Comparing the Eddy and the Vector, the Eddy rides a lot softer and yet handles very well.

Now that the Felt gravel bike is finished I'm surprised that I haven't had a call on that. I'm asking less than for a medium grade over-the-counter bike. I suppose it's waiting for the right party. I wonder if I raise the price I wouldn't have people calling and trying to talk me down. Maybe it is so cheap that people think that it is not a good bike.

I found it pretty surprising that Campy Power Torque and Ultra-Torque cups look exactly the same and yet use slightly different sized bearings. Since the Power Torque bearings are slightly larger it isn't a case of the bearing being insufficient.

Surprising thing to me was that the locking nut in the Ultra-Torque bottom bracket had come completely loose but apparently the bearing friction kept the crankset together. Score 5 more points with me and the extreme good luck of it not coming apart on the road. It turns out that that bearing is on the large side of the tolerances so it didn't come loose on a ride. I was also lucky that the lock nut didn't come out and get lost. There is ALWAYS some tolerances that keep the Ultra Torque shaft from fully engaging so there will always be some movement there. I'm interested in seeing how reliable the splined Power Torque setup will be. The spines are tapered so it should go on tight enough that there is never any loosening motions.

When I stalled the Record Crank in the same cups it slid right in as it should.

The Campy stuff is mostly carbon but the Shimano stuff is not. What's more, although the Shimano stuff shifts more reliably. It is also a little less reliable. Especially the latest manual shifters that have the cable take a sharp right hand turn in the lever body. The previous generation had the shift cables coming out the side of the lever which was a much smoother turn to the cable run. But it would fill up with junk and stop shifting. That latest Dura Ace and Ultegra cranksets are hollow and built in two pieces and they break fairly often. The 105 on the other hand is one piece with the back hollowed out a little. That is a heavier but far more reliable crank. And the difference is only an ounce.

So I will stick with Campy. I may have to stop and give the cable adjuster a quarter turn once in awhile but for the most part they are what the doctor ordered.

I think that Jay said that he is riding slightly heavier and older Specialized because he thinks that it is more reliable. There are a lot of complaints from Specialized owners but the Trek owners main complaints seem to be that damned BB90 which they revamped into the T47 which should solve all of those problems. But come on - DISK BRAKES ONLY?
More dopiness, but at least this is bicycle related dopiness. I have never said I ride an older, heavier Specialized because it is more reliable. My light bike is a Trek Emonda SLR Race Shop Project One, which you should know because I've mentioned it about a million times. It's a great bike. Thank you Trek (got it employee pricing). My son just got a new S-Works disc Tarmac which he loves. He is threatening to get me the same frame so we can be twinsees (except in any meaningful way like watt output).

T47 is not a re-vamped BB90. T47 is a revamped PF30 shell with a 1mm larger, threaded ID. It has a 68mm width -- and not 90mm. Theoretically, one could tap a steel PF30 shell to take a T47 BB.
More idiocy from the moron. Where did I say anything about T47 other than it was a major improvement over BB90? It take a special kind of loser to say absolutely anything to contradict someone.
Dear dope, you said: "There are a lot of complaints from Specialized owners but the Trek owners main complaints seem to be that damned BB90 which they revamped into the T47 which should solve all of those problems."

"Revamp" means "an act of improving the form, structure, or appearance of something." A T47 is not a "revamped" BB90 and bears little resemblance to a BB90. You could state that it is a revamped PF30. Trek adopted a different BB standard that is narrower with a larger OD and ID. Invented here in Oregon. https://www.thespoken.cc/t47-bb-standard
So what you're saying is that the T47 isn't a better form and structure than a BB90.
T47 is not an improved version of a BB90. It is an improved version of a PF30, and the difference is significant if you own a BB30 crank. For example, you might say that an M16 is a revamp of an AR15, but it is not a revamp of a M1.
Tell everyone here. Would you rather have the BB90 or the T47?
I've never owned a T47 BB, but the concept seems good. I've had no problems with my BB90 or any of the press-fit formats. I've changed BB30 bearings because of creaking only to find out that the problem was with some other interface.

BB90 shell width is a feature and supposedly produces a stiffer BB than PF30/T47, so it is more than just threads versus no-threads. I'm generally O.K. with whatever format comes on a particular bike if I like the bike.
So, it is your contention that Trek changed from a BB90 bottom bracket for no reason because you never had any problems with it. That is why the Trek Factory Stores have BB90 expert mechanics with special tools and special oversized bearings. And they changed to a "supposed" less adequate bearing. Well I guess you told us.
WTF is your issue? Is it medication time again? BB90 is just like BB86 or BB30 or PF30 with a different bearing ID/OD (37/24). You make out like it was some standard from outer-space that requires "special tools" and oversized bearings, etc., etc. when it presents exactly the same issues as BB86/BB30/PF30 -- issues that any dope (except you) can manage. I service my own BB90/86/30 with zero problems.

Specialized dumped its version of BB30 press-in on the latest S-Works Tarmac, which now uses an ISO threaded BB and not T47. All press-in formats are under fire, justifiably or not. Nobody in the industry takes Hambini, your hero, seriously -- but you end up with forum and internet driven "known problems" and issues that drive industry change, and Trek or Specialized will dump a format to keep its customers satisfied . I'm relaxing here with my son, who handles dealer care for Specialized for most of the west coast, and I asked him whether his dealers were complaining about Specialized OSBB/BB30, and his answer is "no." It's like a non-issue, but there can be a neurotic turn against a particular format -- particularly proprietary formats -- that pushes t he industry back to earlier standards. Look at what is happening to the proprietary super-bikes -- they're going away as manufacturers return to more standards parts line-ups, frame shapes, etc. I like that forward into the past trend because it is easier to spin in a BB cup that press in a bearing, but is it ultimately "better"? Who knows.
Jay, you're really going to have to make up your mind. Either BB90 was replaced with T47 or it was replaced with a threaded version of PF30. And YES there are special repair bearings for the BB90, the part number is MR24371, and they are FAR too large to put into a worn and clicking BB90 and it requires a special honing tool that the Trek Factory stores carry to open up the BB90 large enough so that the larger bearing can be installed properly. You're the one that started this stupid argument because you're falling to pieces in this Biden/Fauci administration that you wished so hard for.
I didn't start an argument -- I just said a T47 is not a "revamp" of a BB90. I agree that Trek chose T47 as a REPLACEMENT for BB90, so on that we agree. I also agree that T47 avoids some problems that can occur with all of the direct-fit bearing BBs such as bearing seat deformation, which may in extreme situations requiring re-boring, although one could simply install bearings with Loctite 609 or some other gap-filling bushing retainer. If Trek had consumer dissatisfaction (real or imagined), then I can see switching formats, but going back to a threaded format does have its compromises too.

I'm having a great time and my investments are growing.
Thank Joe for stealing the election.
You and Frank seem to be heavily focused on the fact that I have my concussion controlled by medication.
Well, not really -- although you do appear to be hallucinating at times.
But you're careful not to tell anyone what medications you're on.
I am not on any heart medications -- just meth and Chinese Trenbolone.
Jay, where did I say that there was any connection between BB90 and T47? I said that Trek revamped their upper like with T47 which they did. I'm sure that you love Biden but it is pretty bad when even the New York Times is saying that he is crazy. That he has managed to cause more damage to the US in 4 1/2 months than any other President in History.

But back on the subject of bikes, I really do think that you should look into a Lynsky or Litespeed. The ride is incredible. It's like the very finest steel bikes but with light weight. I had no problems throwing the bike up on my shoulder and doing four flights of stairs in total.
I'm glad you're feeling fit. Don't slip on your cleats. And back on the subject of bikes, I have more than I need -- and although the idea of a Ti bike is interesting (one of my closest biking buddies just ordered a Moots), whatever comes next will be a Specialized -- probably a Creo if we end up moving to the mountains.

-- Jay Beattie.
What are the lead times of a Moots today? I think your friend have to be very patient.

Lou
IIRC, it was quoted 12 weeks from order date, which I thought was pretty reasonable -- but who knows when it will actually arrive. He's an easy fit, and I don't think he's getting any kind of custom geometry. And even after arrival, parts are scarce, and he might have to wait to get it together.

He is patient and has other bicycles to ride. He got the Moots because he wants a super rain bike with discs and more tire clearance than his racing bikes but something nicer than his Kona CX bike that he currently uses for rain-riding -- although this year, he usually rode his Landshark with a clip-on fender and shot water in my face all the time. Grrr. And he lost weight and got super-strong all the sudden, so I was on his wheel more than in the olden days.

-- Jay Beattie.
12 weeks is reasonable but I remember someone inquiring after the lead time of a RSL and he got as answer November-December. Ouch. Parts are also difficult to get. I use mine also for winter and rain rides on the road. In the summer it is for gravel riding. Just put my gravel wheels on yesterday. Tomorrow a gravel ride. Really great bike. Put 6000 km on that bike alone last year.
I ordered a carbon fiber saddle with carbon fiber rails on it and it weighs 238 grams. Yesterday I ordered a Bontrager saddle that probably has a carbon seat with a cushioned cover and titanium rails and it weighs 201 grams and will fit in the mounts of a titanium seat post.

One of the things that is rather amazing to me is that they used to have this huge selection of saddles and you had to find one that worked for you. Now most of the saddles are almost identical and they are all comfortable to some degree.
Who is "they"? There are now more saddle choices than ever. https://www.universalcycles.com/search.php?q=saddles And the designs are very different, particularly with the Specialized and Pro shorty saddles.

Imagine going into your Schwinn shop in 1965 and asking to have your butt measured on the assometer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMbZ...tinRasmusse n

By the way Jay, you know as well as anyone that people buy virtually any saddle if they think it will be more comfortable. That is where these 4" thick blocks of rubber are selling. We're discussing actual racing saddles that anyone can ride. I'll bet that you, Jeorg, Lou and I ride saddles that are nearly indistinguishable from each other.

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 7:01:43 AM UTC-7, wrote:

[giant snip]

By the way Jay, you know as well as anyone that people buy virtually any saddle if they think it will be more comfortable. That is where these 4" thick blocks of rubber are selling. We're discussing actual racing saddles that anyone can ride. I'll bet that you, Jeorg, Lou and I ride saddles that are nearly indistinguishable from each other.

Well, I was talking about bicycle saddles in general and not just racing saddles, but even with racing saddles, there is considerable variation, although more subtle. My son's saddle: https://www.specialized.com/us/en/s-...ext=27116-1703 Shorter nose, more cut-out than anything I currently own. There is a whole category of stubby saddles that didn't exist a few years ago. https://images.coloradocyclist.com/p...h-saddle-3.jpg

BTW, this saddle will change your life! https://www.specialized.com/us/en/s-...ext=27120-8503

There is even some company on Instagram that sells saddles with width adjustability fore and aft. There are a ridiculous number of saddle designs and products currently on the market -- way, way more than the golden era of cycling, which was October 23, 1975, the official index date for the golden era of cycling. Whether people actually chose saddles that are that different from one another or from saddles of yore is a whole other thing.

-- Jay Beattie.