Not completely sold on wide tires

On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 12:53:32 AM UTC+1, wrote:

There are 4.18 million miles of roads in the US. That would be:
55 million / 4.18 million = 13 potholes per mile
or one pothole every 406 ft. I'm not sure if that's considered bad,
but from my local observations, seems a bit conservative.

You're fortunate indeed to have so few potholes on such good roads. Here in Ireland, the lanes I ride on are main potholes strung together with thin threads of crazily winding chisel. Riding them at night or in the dusk of the dawn is a severe test of memory. I hate to sound like Joerg, but the worst incident (we don't say the fateful "a"-word in the home of a retired automobile racer!) I ever suffered was when in the harvest season a heavily laden truck or big tractor or harvester split the last inch of tarmac into the ditch in a dip at the apex of a curve. Now I knew the road perfectly and had many times in full dark swept through there at something over 40kph, which by itself is probably lethal on such a jumped-up farm lane if you aren't me. But the light right at dawn is much more treacherous than full dark, and at 40kph even with car-strength (European rally strength sucking on my electric bike battery, not that limp zero-lumen **** that is fitted to US cars) you need better eyes than mine to spot a missing inch from the edge of a patchwork road. The 60mm Big Apples, pressured to 2.06 bar front and rear for a slight spot of understeer -- If you're riding through a whole series of potholes, the very last thing you want is a self-steering bike, which is what a neutral-steering bike will instantly become --, elevated themselves out of the pothole onto that last inch of road as I touched the apex -- which was no longer there. Down my bike went into the ditch. Oh, ****, I thought, I hope Meester Kluver*, who was 89 when he painted the gold coachlines on my bike -- is still alive to repair the damage the gorse hedge will do.. For a put of insurance I threw myself into the gorse hedge and held the bike upright in the ditch. When we came to a stop, the pony in the field across the lane was laughing at my antics as I lay bleeding in the water and wondering if it was worth living when I had to run in another Rohloff if the run-in one on the bike was water-damaged. I told the bloody pony, "If you don't stop that hee-hawing, the next time the gypsy boy whips you, I won't clip his ear, and his father's for not training the little savage better, I'll tell them you deserve a beating." The pony shut up; I have a magic touch with animals. Eventually I raised my collection of bruises first out of the water and then out of the ditch and then brought the bike out -- all with long pauses with much blue smoke in the air -- and then took the biggest, still shining, off to inspect the damage, which was nil to either structure or finish, which I hardly believed until I inspected the bike again in sunlight that afternoon. Amazingly, on a well-trimmed bike the only accessory, except for the rider, that was damaged, was a pedal that struck the new road edge a massive blow as the bike went into the ditch, and in that moment when the entire weight of bike and rider hung on the pedal axle, snapped the axle, which was made of poor quality pot-iron just after WW2 (when even Bentley handles were made of the same crap and then chromed to hide the use metal) and fitted to a rubber block pedal intended for Hutchinson (? maybe Hudson? or even Hetchins?) bicycles, which I bought NOS from a bicycle collector on Ebay: the fellow had the decency to warn me that one of another pair he used on one of his vintage bikes snapped off in everyday use. I could have gotten the price of the pedals (IIRC 44 English pounds plus postage} back from another collector when I sold him the box with one pedal in it, and gave him the address of the fellow with one good pedal, but my style is to give stuff that's useless to me away FOC and expect a favour of knowledge or service later.

*"Meester" is the same as the English "master", an accolade for a craftsman of such elevated skill that he's universally recognised as an artist. Meester Kluver worked on the line when the Locomotief Deluxe Crossframe, which in time morphed into my bike, was first built in 1936, and again at the Dutch firm of VanRaam when my Utopia Kranich, a direct development, was built. See the last section or two of:
http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf
In 1915 or 1916 VW gave Meester Henk Kluver, still turning fine bicycles into art on his 90th birthday, a lifetime achievement award as a living master craftsman. I used to have a video of Meester Kluver working in Van Raam and VW arriving to hand over the prize, a VW van with all the trimmings, on my late blog Kisingblarney, but can't find it now. Where's my googlebug, Slow Johnny?

Andre Jute
Maybe by the time I'm 90 I can learn to build a table that stands still...

On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 1:15:46 AM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:

'Once you solve the problem, the money stops.'

Shush, man! What are you, some kind of a whistleblower. The EU might hear you!

On Thu, 20 May 2021 12:29:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/20/2021 12:57 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Incidentally, the pot holes on the road from the main highway to my
house has the potholes filled by the county, usually immediately after
the first major winter storm. Originally, this was because one of the
county supervisors lived in the area. However, that was long ago, and
we just didn't have the heart to tell the country public works
department that he's no longer a supervisor and no longer living on
the road. Also, in the city of Santa Cruz, the newly elected city
council members have the street in front of their houses resurfaced
after the election. The city public works department considers the
road work to be one of the perks of being elected.

Corroboration: A few years ago, our dimwitted village mayor had his
photograph taken on a terribly potholed village street, as a way to
publicize the need for a new village street repair levy.

The street he chose for the photo? Mine! It had hundreds of picturesque
potholes.

These are actual "pot holes" where the pavement has broken away
leaving an actual hole through the pavement or just a, basically, very
rough place in the pavement.

If the former it is usually an indication that the road has water
under it, usually due to inadequate drainage, which means that simply
dumping some "hot mix" in the hole is not going to solve the problem
for any appreciable length of time.


The levy passed. The first street to get repaved? His! That is, the
street where the mayor lived.

It was three years before our street's picturesque potholes got a proper
repaving job.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 20 May 2021 09:32:09 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 7:10:10 a.m. UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 May 2021 15:18:49 -0700 (PDT), Mark cleary
wrote:

I might be in a real minority now. I run 23 and 25mm Conti GP 5000
strictly road bike. I do like the 25's and a bit lower pressure but I
sure cannot see going to 28's and dropping pressure even more. Right now
I run about 95-86 rear and front on the 25's. Going much lower to me
would seem pinch flats, I weigh 169 pounds, at least if you hit a big
hole. Then I can see more weight and less aero. I am the only only one
not buying this go as low as you can, and wide.
Deacon Mark

I went for that "fatter tires and less pressure" scheme and had a
number of pinch flats so went back to the 23's and 100 psi front and
back and (knock on wood) haven't had a flat since :-)

But I ride on paved roads which are generally in good condition and
frankly can see little difference in the ride between 25's with lower
pressure and 23's at 100 psi. But then, I rode "sew ups" for quite a
few years and was quite happy with them too:-)
I only ever pinch flatted on 25/23mm tires at 100+ As essentially not
enough between road and rim, one of my club mates has dinged his rims the
other week due to a potholes.

On the Gravel bike with 35mm at 50psi plenty of space between road and rim.
So potholes are generally just swallowed, with out issues, and as far as I
can tell from Strava ie times up hills etc no slower than the pure road
bikes I’ve had previously.

Doesn’t have that high pressure zing which is lovely on fresh tarmac!

But frankly I’m sold on the gravel bike, I’m less convinced by the ones
closer to MTB with 50mm or thereabouts tires I suspect they would feel too
sluggish on the road and a XC MTB is still better down the woods, where as
the 30/40mm gravel bikes are jack of all trade.

Roger Merriman.

I have a few rigid frame/rigid fork MTBs converted to drop bar. If I run 1.5" (about 38mm) slick type tires on pavement they're a fantastic heavy duty touring bike. Or I can put on 2.125" (@57mm) knobby tires for off road touring.

I built one of those. I don't remember the tire size - probably the
normal for MTB's with road tread. I used it for a "knock around" bike.
Down the hill to the workshop and back up the hill for lunch sort of
thing. Aluminum frame and fork so probably no heavier then my steel
frame road bikes but it always "felt heavier" then the road bikes.
I can't describe it exactly, it certainly was no harder to ride up
hill but it just felt heavy :-)


Different folks have different needs and/or wants. Some people love the feel riding on a 19mm tires pumped up really hard.

Cheers
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 20 May 2021 08:55:42 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/19/2021 6:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 19 May 2021 16:53:25 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 20 May 2021 06:00:36 +0700, John B.
wrote:


But are U.S. roads really that bad?

https://www.cityworks.com/blog/10-fascinating-facts-about-potholes/
"There are an estimated 55 million potholes in the U.S."

There are 4.18 million miles of roads in the US. That would be:
55 million / 4.18 million = 13 potholes per mile
or one pothole every 406 ft. I'm not sure if that's considered bad,
but from my local observations, seems a bit conservative.

Of course, some potholes are larger than others:
https://www.google.com/search?q=sinkhole&tbm=isch

Drivel: Many years ago, I engaged in a series of discusions where I
claimed that potholes are alive and are really ancient dinosaur
tracks:
http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/nooze/pothole.txt

Goodness, the richest nation in the world and you have bad roads :-)

I recall about two years ago, when I was the mayor of my city, we had a
group of students from China visiting. When they were leaving we had
them come to a city council meeting for a farewell ceremony of sorts. I
asked one of them what he liked best and least about the U.S.. What he
liked least was the road quality! If you've been to China, you'll find
that the freeway road surfaces are extremely smooth and in near perfect
condition.

The same here in Thailand and for that matter in Singapore :-) But
what puzzles me is that I left the U.S. to work overseas in 1972 and I
really don't remember all this rough road and pot holes that I read
about here and I drove in, from memory, at least 10 states and drove
coast to coast twice.

Have the roads really deteriorate that greatly? Or is my memory at
fault?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/20/2021 9:21 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 12:29:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/20/2021 12:57 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Incidentally, the pot holes on the road from the main highway to my
house has the potholes filled by the county, usually immediately after
the first major winter storm. Originally, this was because one of the
county supervisors lived in the area. However, that was long ago, and
we just didn't have the heart to tell the country public works
department that he's no longer a supervisor and no longer living on
the road. Also, in the city of Santa Cruz, the newly elected city
council members have the street in front of their houses resurfaced
after the election. The city public works department considers the
road work to be one of the perks of being elected.

Corroboration: A few years ago, our dimwitted village mayor had his
photograph taken on a terribly potholed village street, as a way to
publicize the need for a new village street repair levy.

The street he chose for the photo? Mine! It had hundreds of picturesque
potholes.

These are actual "pot holes" where the pavement has broken away
leaving an actual hole through the pavement or just a, basically, very
rough place in the pavement.

I don't remember the precise condition at the time the mayor had his
photo taken. But observing over time, there would be actual potholes,
then lumps of paving material that had been shoveled in and partially
tamped down with a shovel. At the moment of the photo, who knows?

I recall seeing part of a television news program talking about some
town in the western U.S. that was supposedly very bike friendly. The
only detail I caught was that they had an ordinance requiring pothole
patches to actually be smooth, within 1/4" level with the surrounding
roadway. Needless to say, that's not how it goes around here.

If you have few freeze-thaw cycles, I suppose you have relatively few
potholes. That may allow artisanal pothole repair. In winter around
here, they probably never have to shut off the pothole repair truck.
Chuck it in, whack it twice, move on to the next one.

If the former it is usually an indication that the road has water
under it, usually due to inadequate drainage, which means that simply
dumping some "hot mix" in the hole is not going to solve the problem
for any appreciable length of time.

There is a spot farther down this street where after a rain, one can see
water seeping upward out of tiny cracks in new pavement. But that's not
where the mayor was standing.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 20 May 2021 21:45:00 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/20/2021 9:21 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 12:29:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/20/2021 12:57 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Incidentally, the pot holes on the road from the main highway to my
house has the potholes filled by the county, usually immediately after
the first major winter storm. Originally, this was because one of the
county supervisors lived in the area. However, that was long ago, and
we just didn't have the heart to tell the country public works
department that he's no longer a supervisor and no longer living on
the road. Also, in the city of Santa Cruz, the newly elected city
council members have the street in front of their houses resurfaced
after the election. The city public works department considers the
road work to be one of the perks of being elected.

Corroboration: A few years ago, our dimwitted village mayor had his
photograph taken on a terribly potholed village street, as a way to
publicize the need for a new village street repair levy.

The street he chose for the photo? Mine! It had hundreds of picturesque
potholes.

These are actual "pot holes" where the pavement has broken away
leaving an actual hole through the pavement or just a, basically, very
rough place in the pavement.

I don't remember the precise condition at the time the mayor had his
photo taken. But observing over time, there would be actual potholes,
then lumps of paving material that had been shoveled in and partially
tamped down with a shovel. At the moment of the photo, who knows?

I recall seeing part of a television news program talking about some
town in the western U.S. that was supposedly very bike friendly. The
only detail I caught was that they had an ordinance requiring pothole
patches to actually be smooth, within 1/4" level with the surrounding
roadway. Needless to say, that's not how it goes around here.

It doesn't make any difference. Simply putting hot mix in the hole,
whether tamped with the back of the shovel or pounded down with a
hammer won't make much difference if the problem is (and it usually
is) that the underlying "foundation" can't support the surface layer.


If you have few freeze-thaw cycles, I suppose you have relatively few
potholes. That may allow artisanal pothole repair. In winter around
here, they probably never have to shut off the pothole repair truck.
Chuck it in, whack it twice, move on to the next one.

If the former it is usually an indication that the road has water
under it, usually due to inadequate drainage, which means that simply
dumping some "hot mix" in the hole is not going to solve the problem
for any appreciable length of time.

There is a spot farther down this street where after a rain, one can see
water seeping upward out of tiny cracks in new pavement. But that's not
where the mayor was standing.

If it is a village street then fixing it correctly may be more hassle
than is acceptable as it could involve excavations of both sides to
allow drainage, excavation of the roadbed and building a proper sub
base and then a bearing surface with proper crown to insure runoff and
then the paving.

I suspect that because of the rainy season here, where it rains
essentially every day, that road builders takes excess water into
consideration as storm drains and/or other drainage is common to
almost all roads here. Even in this project where we live every street
has drainage gratings, usually on both sides on every level section.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, May 19, 2021 at 6:53:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 06:00:36 +0700, John B.
wrote:
But are U.S. roads really that bad?
https://www.cityworks.com/blog/10-fascinating-facts-about-potholes/
"There are an estimated 55 million potholes in the U.S."

There are 4.18 million miles of roads in the US. That would be:
55 million / 4.18 million = 13 potholes per mile
or one pothole every 406 ft. I'm not sure if that's considered bad,
but from my local observations, seems a bit conservative.


OK. 1 pothole every 406 feet. Now I would venture to say that 99%+ of all potholes are where cars/trucks drive on the road. Heavy vehicles cause the potholes. Bicycles probably cause zero potholes. And that 1 pothole every 406 feet is divided or multiplied by two since cars have two tire tracks, left and right. One near the shoulder and one near the middle lane stripe. So instead of 1 every 406 feet its really 1 every 812 feet. And the potholes are only where the cars drive on the roads. So if you ride between the normal tire track on the road, 3 feet from the side line or shoulder, and the side stripe, you would hit zero potholes every 812 feet. I know some will say its dangerous to ride so close to the side of the road. OK. Then ride to the left of the tire track near the shoulder. Closer to the center of the road. Again zero potholes every 812 feet.

I've always found it real easy to avoid hitting potholes. You will always hit some when the road has a big crack clear across the road. But potholes caused by car tires are easy to miss. Yes I have hit a few potholes on my rides. But its pretty rare. Not something I give a second thought to.






Of course, some potholes are larger than others:
https://www.google.com/search?q=sinkhole&tbm=isch

Drivel: Many years ago, I engaged in a series of discusions where I
claimed that potholes are alive and are really ancient dinosaur
tracks:
http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/nooze/pothole.txt



--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wednesday, May 19, 2021 at 8:44:22 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 19 May 2021 16:53:25 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 06:00:36 +0700, John B.
wrote:


But are U.S. roads really that bad?

https://www.cityworks.com/blog/10-fascinating-facts-about-potholes/
"There are an estimated 55 million potholes in the U.S."

There are 4.18 million miles of roads in the US. That would be:
55 million / 4.18 million = 13 potholes per mile
or one pothole every 406 ft. I'm not sure if that's considered bad,
but from my local observations, seems a bit conservative.

Of course, some potholes are larger than others:
https://www.google.com/search?q=sinkhole&tbm=isch

Drivel: Many years ago, I engaged in a series of discusions where I
claimed that potholes are alive and are really ancient dinosaur
tracks:
http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/nooze/pothole.txt
Goodness, the richest nation in the world and you have bad roads :-)
--

John B.

Richest country in the world and we have the most criminals too!!!! Oh wait, that kind of makes sense. More rich people to rob so more criminals to rob them. Do really poor countries have no robberies because everyone is so poor that there is nothing to steal? Better counter examples...Richest country in the world and the most expensive health care costs in the world!!!! Oh wait, that kind of makes sense too. Rich country can afford to overpay for all health costs. Better example...Richest country in the world and the most medically uninsured people!!!! I knew I would find a better example. Poor people don't deserve to have health care or be well. Let the poor people get sick and die. That's how the founding fathers wanted it. I'm sure they wrote that in the Federalist Papers back in the 1700s.

On Fri, 21 May 2021 00:32:49 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Wednesday, May 19, 2021 at 8:44:22 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 19 May 2021 16:53:25 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 06:00:36 +0700, John B.
wrote:


But are U.S. roads really that bad?

https://www.cityworks.com/blog/10-fascinating-facts-about-potholes/
"There are an estimated 55 million potholes in the U.S."

There are 4.18 million miles of roads in the US. That would be:
55 million / 4.18 million = 13 potholes per mile
or one pothole every 406 ft. I'm not sure if that's considered bad,
but from my local observations, seems a bit conservative.

Of course, some potholes are larger than others:
https://www.google.com/search?q=sinkhole&tbm=isch

Drivel: Many years ago, I engaged in a series of discusions where I
claimed that potholes are alive and are really ancient dinosaur
tracks:
http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/nooze/pothole.txt
Goodness, the richest nation in the world and you have bad roads :-)
--

John B.

Richest country in the world and we have the most criminals too!!!! Oh wait, that kind of makes sense. More rich people to rob so more criminals to rob them. Do really poor countries have no robberies because everyone is so poor that there is nothing to steal? Better counter examples...Richest country in the world and the most expensive health care costs in the world!!!! Oh wait, that kind of makes sense too. Rich country can afford to overpay for all health costs. Better example...Richest country in the world and the most medically uninsured people!!!! I knew I would find a better example. Poor people don't deserve to have health care or be well. Let the poor people get sick and die. That's how the founding fathers wanted it. I'm sure they wrote that in the Federalist Papers back in the 1700s.

Actually I was wrong and the U.S. is not the richest country in the
world, at least not on a per capita basis.

The International Monetary Fund (2021 estimates list Luxembourg as
number 1 and the U.S. as number 7 while the World Bank (2019) lists
Macau as the richest and the U.S. as number 8 and the Central
Intelligence Agency (1993–2019 lists Liechtenstein as #1 and the U.S.
way down the list at number 10.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...%29_per_capita

But never mind the U.S. is still holding their own with first place in
numbers incarcerated both in numbers and rate per 100,000 population
:-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rceration_rate
--
Cheers,

John B.