Airborne

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion..

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing..

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.



Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay.. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Tom has a point, and urban fire bombing was probably illegal under some war convention, but getting the attention of a militarized population willing to follow its Emperor into the glorious afterlife was no easy feat. I doubt re-bombing a few military bases or industrial plants would have made a difference. I'm no expert, but this issue is the subject of endless post hoc debate by real experts.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay.. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Andrew, are you thinking that you can forgive war crimes on our part by saying that they committed war crimes? I don't think that I could say that what we did was exactly a war crime, but certainly there were just as effect alternatives that would not have killed so many people in so horrible a manner.

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 11:00:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Tom has a point, and urban fire bombing was probably illegal under some war convention, but getting the attention of a militarized population willing to follow its Emperor into the glorious afterlife was no easy feat. I doubt re-bombing a few military bases or industrial plants would have made a difference. I'm no expert, but this issue is the subject of endless post hoc debate by real experts.

I think that "real experts" is exactly what is not needed on this issue. As I noted, we tried and executed the Germans for little more. Was it "experts" serving on the jury?

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 11:18:10 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 11:00:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Tom has a point, and urban fire bombing was probably illegal under some war convention, but getting the attention of a militarized population willing to follow its Emperor into the glorious afterlife was no easy feat. I doubt re-bombing a few military bases or industrial plants would have made a difference. I'm no expert, but this issue is the subject of endless post hoc debate by real experts.
I think that "real experts" is exactly what is not needed on this issue. As I noted, we tried and executed the Germans for little more. Was it "experts" serving on the jury?

I'm talking about experts in terms of history, ethics, law, etc. People who can give an informed opinion rather than a personal expression of what is "right" or "wrong."

BTW, no jurors at Nuremberg -- that was a military tribunal or a the equivalent of a judge trial. Judges find facts and apply the law to the facts, whatever the law may be. I have no idea what the law is -- or even the relevant body of law apart from the Geneva Convention or US military law as it applies to members of our armed services. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%E1%BB%B9_Lai_massacre

-- Jay Beattie.

On Fri, 28 May 2021 11:00:47 -0700 (PDT),
jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation?
Certainly he didn't within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on
Honshu thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age
wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black
with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2
engine was too much. It had no justification because it
didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely
indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to
take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air
superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of
time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But
believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position
to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them
and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought
the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding
officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go
especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations
were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians.
The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese
people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So
what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements are
quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Tom has a point, and urban fire bombing was probably illegal
under some war convention, but getting the attention of a
militarized population willing to follow its Emperor into the
glorious afterlife was no easy feat. I doubt re-bombing a few
military bases or industrial plants would have made a
difference. I'm no expert, but this issue is the subject of
endless post hoc debate by real experts.

Malcolm Gladwell did a pretty deep dive into the topic in a series
of four podcasts...

https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/the-bomber-mafia/
https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/may-t...-firebomb-win/
https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/bombs-away-lemay/
https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/goodb...well-and-amen/

The impression I came away with is much the same as Tom's.

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA

On 5/28/2021 1:15 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Andrew, are you thinking that you can forgive war crimes on our part by saying that they committed war crimes? I don't think that I could say that what we did was exactly a war crime, but certainly there were just as effect alternatives that would not have killed so many people in so horrible a manner.


Plenty enough of that criticism to go around. Soviets were
not much better than Japanese in treatment of Germans and
even American pilots who made it across after the Doolittle
raid, some of whom died in the gulags years later.

You may have a point but it's based on modern sensibilities,
which is a limiting principle.

At that time Truman (and LeMay etc) did the right thing as
they understood it, with the information and resources they
had, decisively, in the moment.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/28/2021 1:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 11:00:49 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.

Tom has a point, and urban fire bombing was probably illegal under some war convention, but getting the attention of a militarized population willing to follow its Emperor into the glorious afterlife was no easy feat. I doubt re-bombing a few military bases or industrial plants would have made a difference. I'm no expert, but this issue is the subject of endless post hoc debate by real experts.

I think that "real experts" is exactly what is not needed on this issue. As I noted, we tried and executed the Germans for little more. Was it "experts" serving on the jury?


After Malmedy, and then opening of the execution camps, the
'ground rules' changed.

Again, you do have a point. Just recognize it's an
application of modern sensibilities to a long ago event and
decisions made in that moment.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 1:50:30 p.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 9:22:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/28/2021 9:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 6:04:14 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:05:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/27/2021 8:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 9:21:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
While Titanium is a good material, there are so many possibilities for an error in construction that it is probably a bad idea to buy an el cheap producto in that material.
Like buying an Airborne titanium frame? Like you did?
Question Russell, who founded Airborne?

Gen Ridgeway, 82d Division, 1942.

HA HA, I watched a podcast of Victor David Hansen who was discussing General Patten. He had a very bad reputation as did General Curtis LeMay.. But it turns out that if Eisenhower and Ridgeway had listened to Patten he would have shortened the war and probably saved 400,000 lives. Seem like most of the other Generals didn't like Patten because he was a rich man that came from a filthy rich family and was a college football and polo champion.

Did General Curtis LeMay have a bad reputation? Certainly he didn't
within SAC.

And the Marines who fully appreciated not landing on Honshu
thanks largely to him and Leslie Groves.

I'm not saying that bombing Japan back into the stone age wasn't justified. But napalm from a sky absolutely black with every bomber that America had both 4 engine and 2 engine was too much. It had no justification because it didn't have any real targets. It simply killed entirely indiscriminately. When you have the air superiority to take fleets that size over an enemy, you have the air superiority to be discriminant with who you are killing.

One ought to pause when judging decisions in extremis at
that moment against our later standards and the breadth of time.

also, Nanking, Manila, etc.
Andrew, I realize the gravity of war. I was in one. But believe me what I say that the Japanese were in no position to stop the bombing campaign that was mounted against them and you simply cannot use ANY means. That is why we brought the Germans before a world court and killed their commanding officers. There are some extremes to which you do not go especially when you have the upper hand. The estimations were 250-900 thousand dead and almost entirely civilians. The Japanese command no doubt was evil and told the Japanese people that the Americans would torture and kill them. So what did LeMay do? He tortured and killed them.

Facts are one thing (I note you did not address Nanking and
related campaigns or US, Britich and Dutch POWs routine
beheadings and fatal tortures for that matter). Judgements
are quite another.

BTW the firebombing resulted almost accidentally when it was
discovered that enough incendiaries on wooden targets could
make their own micro weather system and spread wildfire. Not
'like' a wildfire, but actual wildfire. LeMay used that
information effectively.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

It was also a fantastic way to destroy all the little household factories making stuff for the Japanese war effort.

Cheers