Mountain riding and rim life

I was surprised to see the first replacement set of rims I had to buy
for my bike last only a year and a half (after the original ones that
came with it lasted ten years).

My original set were Ritchey Vantage (on a Bridgestone MTB). When a
mechanic pointed out the cupping wear in the rim (from braking) and said
the strength was significantly compromised, I bought a pair of Mavic
517's (silver, not anodized). That was in the spring of 2003.

After my braking became very herky jerky this fall, I was amazed when a
mechanic pointed out that my rear rim had significant cupping wear
(front had a lot of wear, too) and was actually beginning to weaken and
flair ever so slightly outward in spots (hence the grabby brakes).

(He related that if the rim failed bad enough, it could crease, split,
start to fly apart and chew my leg to bits. ô¿Ô¬ !!)

That was only a year and a half after putting them on my bike. Not
wanting to continue with Mavics, I shopped around, but I concluded that
Mavics really are good rims, so I now have a new set of 717 (the very
same as 517's as far as I can tell - just a new model number).

So now I'm wondering ............... Last year, I changed the amount of
mountain riding that I do significantly. I mean, that's about the only
place I ride anymore (steep mountain rides). So, a question to other
mountain riders out there; does the increased braking required in
mountain riding (and it is *significantly* more than riding on flats or
even on hills) actually cause accelerated rim wear - to that magnitude
(10 years vs. 1½ years)? How often do any of you find yourself needing
new rims? Any recommendations for a longer lasting rim?

--
*****************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO
http://www.CycleTourist.com
Integrity is obvious.
The lack of it is common.
*****************************

Chuck Anderson writes:

I was surprised to see the first replacement set of rims I had to
buy for my bike last only a year and a half (after the original ones
that came with it lasted ten years).

You may be overlooking the environment and mileage. Ten years means
little to rims when a rider puts on 1000 miles a year... in fair
weather.

My original set were Ritchey Vantage (on a Bridgestone MTB). When a
mechanic pointed out the cupping wear in the rim (from braking) and
said the strength was significantly compromised, I bought a pair of
Mavic 517's (silver, not anodized). That was in the spring of 2003.

You should measure that rather than taking that as a need to replace
the rim.

After my braking became very herky jerky this fall, I was amazed
when a mechanic pointed out that my rear rim had significant cupping
wear (front had a lot of wear, too) and was actually beginning to
weaken and flair ever so slightly outward in spots (hence the grabby
brakes).

Rims do not flare out. They only seem to do that as the brake track
wears deeper. What sort of brake pads do you use and do you ever hear
scraping noises from the brakes. From what you say, I suspect you
have terrible brake pads that have embedded grit and aluminum
shavings, the hardest cutting tools you can get (Al-2-O-3).

(He related that if the rim failed bad enough, it could crease,
split, start to fly apart and chew my leg to bits. ???? !!)

Measure the inside width of your new rim with digital calipers and
compare that with the worn one of the same model. I think you will
see that the two are the same. If that weren't the case, the rim
would have broken along the center of the brake track.

That was only a year and a half after putting them on my bike. Not
wanting to continue with Mavics, I shopped around, but I concluded
that Mavics really are good rims, so I now have a new set of 717
(the very same as 517's as far as I can tell - just a new model
number).

Get some Kool-Stop Salmon CONTINENTALS and measure your rims. Don't
ride with scraping brake pads. I hear people descending like that
often. It's painful to listen as the rims get destroyed.

So now I'm wondering... Last year, I changed the amount of mountain
riding that I do significantly. I mean, that's about the only place
I ride anymore (steep mountain rides). So, a question to other
mountain riders out there; does the increased braking required in
mountain riding (and it is *significantly* more than riding on flats
or even on hills) actually cause accelerated rim wear - to that
magnitude (10 years vs. 1? years)? How often do any of you find
yourself needing new rims? Any recommendations for a longer lasting
rim?

That depends on what sort of muck you ride. My road rims last about
30K miles. if I don't happen to descend many mountain passes in rain.
In that case I once used up a set of rims in 4000 miles.

Jobst Brandt

Chuck Anderson writes:

I was surprised to see the first replacement set of rims I had to
buy for my bike last only a year and a half (after the original ones
that came with it lasted ten years).

You may be overlooking the environment and mileage. Ten years means
little to rims when a rider puts on 1000 miles a year... in fair
weather.

My original set were Ritchey Vantage (on a Bridgestone MTB). When a
mechanic pointed out the cupping wear in the rim (from braking) and
said the strength was significantly compromised, I bought a pair of
Mavic 517's (silver, not anodized). That was in the spring of 2003.

You should measure that rather than taking that as a need to replace
the rim.

After my braking became very herky jerky this fall, I was amazed
when a mechanic pointed out that my rear rim had significant cupping
wear (front had a lot of wear, too) and was actually beginning to
weaken and flair ever so slightly outward in spots (hence the grabby
brakes).

Rims do not flare out. They only seem to do that as the brake track
wears deeper. What sort of brake pads do you use and do you ever hear
scraping noises from the brakes. From what you say, I suspect you
have terrible brake pads that have embedded grit and aluminum
shavings, the hardest cutting tools you can get (Al-2-O-3).

(He related that if the rim failed bad enough, it could crease,
split, start to fly apart and chew my leg to bits. ???? !!)

Measure the inside width of your new rim with digital calipers and
compare that with the worn one of the same model. I think you will
see that the two are the same. If that weren't the case, the rim
would have broken along the center of the brake track.

That was only a year and a half after putting them on my bike. Not
wanting to continue with Mavics, I shopped around, but I concluded
that Mavics really are good rims, so I now have a new set of 717
(the very same as 517's as far as I can tell - just a new model
number).

Get some Kool-Stop Salmon CONTINENTALS and measure your rims. Don't
ride with scraping brake pads. I hear people descending like that
often. It's painful to listen as the rims get destroyed.

So now I'm wondering... Last year, I changed the amount of mountain
riding that I do significantly. I mean, that's about the only place
I ride anymore (steep mountain rides). So, a question to other
mountain riders out there; does the increased braking required in
mountain riding (and it is *significantly* more than riding on flats
or even on hills) actually cause accelerated rim wear - to that
magnitude (10 years vs. 1? years)? How often do any of you find
yourself needing new rims? Any recommendations for a longer lasting
rim?

That depends on what sort of muck you ride. My road rims last about
30K miles. if I don't happen to descend many mountain passes in rain.
In that case I once used up a set of rims in 4000 miles.

Jobst Brandt

Jobst Brandt wrote:

Get some Kool-Stop Salmon CONTINENTALS and measure your rims. Don't
ride with scraping brake pads. I hear people descending like that
often. It's painful to listen as the rims get destroyed.

Since the OP has a mountain bike, he likely has v-brakes. If that's
the case, he should get Kool-Stop Salmon BMX pads. Harris Cyclery
carries them.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Jobst Brandt wrote:

Get some Kool-Stop Salmon CONTINENTALS and measure your rims. Don't
ride with scraping brake pads. I hear people descending like that
often. It's painful to listen as the rims get destroyed.

Since the OP has a mountain bike, he likely has v-brakes. If that's
the case, he should get Kool-Stop Salmon BMX pads. Harris Cyclery
carries them.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

wrote:

Chuck Anderson writes:


I was surprised to see the first replacement set of rims I had to
buy for my bike last only a year and a half (after the original ones
that came with it lasted ten years).



You may be overlooking the environment and mileage. Ten years means
little to rims when a rider puts on 1000 miles a year... in fair
weather.


I'd done years of fully loaded touring on those old rims - 10's of
thousands of miles on them.

My original set were Ritchey Vantage (on a Bridgestone MTB). When a
mechanic pointed out the cupping wear in the rim (from braking) and
said the strength was significantly compromised, I bought a pair of
Mavic 517's (silver, not anodized). That was in the spring of 2003.



You should measure that rather than taking that as a need to replace
the rim.



Guess I'll need to get some calipers. Digital? That sounds expensive.
I'll have to put that on my list of things to look for at the hardware
store.

After my braking became very herky jerky this fall, I was amazed
when a mechanic pointed out that my rear rim had significant cupping
wear (front had a lot of wear, too) and was actually beginning to
weaken and flair ever so slightly outward in spots (hence the grabby
brakes).



Rims do not flare out. They only seem to do that as the brake track
wears deeper.

Well, ... the shop mechanic spread some calipers inside the old rim,
touching both sides, rotated the wheel and showed me where the flaring
was (where the calipers no longer touched both sides). It looked flared
to me.

What sort of brake pads do you use and do you ever hear
scraping noises from the brakes. From what you say, I suspect you
have terrible brake pads that have embedded grit and aluminum
shavings, the hardest cutting tools you can get (Al-2-O-3).


Yes. The brake pads had been much noisier than usual all last year.
Guess I should have taken that seriously. I've since put on Richey
extreme pads (red) and now have a set of Kool Stop Salmon (v- brake
inserts) sitting on my counter. I like the look of those (with the
shovel nose). Seeing as it's snowing this weekend, I think I'll put
those on. And I am now going to regularly (after riding in wet and/or
gritty conditions) clean my brake pads with sandpaper or emery cloth
(something I've never done before). I was thinking I should get a can of
acetone for cleaning the rims, too.

Get some Kool-Stop Salmon CONTINENTALS and measure your rims. Don't
ride with scraping brake pads. I hear people descending like that
often. It's painful to listen as the rims get destroyed.


I'd have to say that's what I was doing. I guess I've learned my lesson.

So now I'm wondering... Last year, I changed the amount of mountain
riding that I do significantly. I mean, that's about the only place
I ride anymore (steep mountain rides). So, a question to other
mountain riders out there; does the increased braking required in
mountain riding (and it is *significantly* more than riding on flats
or even on hills) actually cause accelerated rim wear - to that
magnitude (10 years vs. 1? years)? How often do any of you find
yourself needing new rims? Any recommendations for a longer lasting
rim?



That depends on what sort of muck you ride. My road rims last about
30K miles. if I don't happen to descend many mountain passes in rain.
In that case I once used up a set of rims in 4000 miles.


That's pretty much what I did with those Mavic 517's - probably about
4,000 miles.

Oh well, ... we only learn through our mistakes.

--
*****************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO
http://www.CycleTourist.com
Integrity is obvious.
The lack of it is common.
*****************************

wrote:

Chuck Anderson writes:


I was surprised to see the first replacement set of rims I had to
buy for my bike last only a year and a half (after the original ones
that came with it lasted ten years).



You may be overlooking the environment and mileage. Ten years means
little to rims when a rider puts on 1000 miles a year... in fair
weather.


I'd done years of fully loaded touring on those old rims - 10's of
thousands of miles on them.

My original set were Ritchey Vantage (on a Bridgestone MTB). When a
mechanic pointed out the cupping wear in the rim (from braking) and
said the strength was significantly compromised, I bought a pair of
Mavic 517's (silver, not anodized). That was in the spring of 2003.



You should measure that rather than taking that as a need to replace
the rim.



Guess I'll need to get some calipers. Digital? That sounds expensive.
I'll have to put that on my list of things to look for at the hardware
store.

After my braking became very herky jerky this fall, I was amazed
when a mechanic pointed out that my rear rim had significant cupping
wear (front had a lot of wear, too) and was actually beginning to
weaken and flair ever so slightly outward in spots (hence the grabby
brakes).



Rims do not flare out. They only seem to do that as the brake track
wears deeper.

Well, ... the shop mechanic spread some calipers inside the old rim,
touching both sides, rotated the wheel and showed me where the flaring
was (where the calipers no longer touched both sides). It looked flared
to me.

What sort of brake pads do you use and do you ever hear
scraping noises from the brakes. From what you say, I suspect you
have terrible brake pads that have embedded grit and aluminum
shavings, the hardest cutting tools you can get (Al-2-O-3).


Yes. The brake pads had been much noisier than usual all last year.
Guess I should have taken that seriously. I've since put on Richey
extreme pads (red) and now have a set of Kool Stop Salmon (v- brake
inserts) sitting on my counter. I like the look of those (with the
shovel nose). Seeing as it's snowing this weekend, I think I'll put
those on. And I am now going to regularly (after riding in wet and/or
gritty conditions) clean my brake pads with sandpaper or emery cloth
(something I've never done before). I was thinking I should get a can of
acetone for cleaning the rims, too.

Get some Kool-Stop Salmon CONTINENTALS and measure your rims. Don't
ride with scraping brake pads. I hear people descending like that
often. It's painful to listen as the rims get destroyed.


I'd have to say that's what I was doing. I guess I've learned my lesson.

So now I'm wondering... Last year, I changed the amount of mountain
riding that I do significantly. I mean, that's about the only place
I ride anymore (steep mountain rides). So, a question to other
mountain riders out there; does the increased braking required in
mountain riding (and it is *significantly* more than riding on flats
or even on hills) actually cause accelerated rim wear - to that
magnitude (10 years vs. 1? years)? How often do any of you find
yourself needing new rims? Any recommendations for a longer lasting
rim?



That depends on what sort of muck you ride. My road rims last about
30K miles. if I don't happen to descend many mountain passes in rain.
In that case I once used up a set of rims in 4000 miles.


That's pretty much what I did with those Mavic 517's - probably about
4,000 miles.

Oh well, ... we only learn through our mistakes.

--
*****************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO
http://www.CycleTourist.com
Integrity is obvious.
The lack of it is common.
*****************************

Terry Morse wrote:

Jobst Brandt wrote:



Get some Kool-Stop Salmon CONTINENTALS and measure your rims. Don't
ride with scraping brake pads. I hear people descending like that
often. It's painful to listen as the rims get destroyed.



Since the OP has a mountain bike, he likely has v-brakes. If that's
the case, he should get Kool-Stop Salmon BMX pads. Harris Cyclery
carries them.



Glad to hear from the mountain king. ô¿Ô¬

Here's what I got:

http://www.koolstop.com/brakes/#Anchor-Also-6785 - Salmon

--
*****************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO
http://www.CycleTourist.com
Integrity is obvious.
The lack of it is common.
*****************************

Terry Morse wrote:

Jobst Brandt wrote:



Get some Kool-Stop Salmon CONTINENTALS and measure your rims. Don't
ride with scraping brake pads. I hear people descending like that
often. It's painful to listen as the rims get destroyed.



Since the OP has a mountain bike, he likely has v-brakes. If that's
the case, he should get Kool-Stop Salmon BMX pads. Harris Cyclery
carries them.



Glad to hear from the mountain king. ô¿Ô¬

Here's what I got:

http://www.koolstop.com/brakes/#Anchor-Also-6785 - Salmon

--
*****************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO
http://www.CycleTourist.com
Integrity is obvious.
The lack of it is common.
*****************************

Chuck Anderson writes:

I was surprised to see the first replacement set of rims I had to
buy for my bike last only a year and a half (after the original
ones that came with it lasted ten years).

You may be overlooking the environment and mileage. Ten years
means little to rims when a rider puts on 1000 miles a year... in
fair weather.

I'd done years of fully loaded touring on those old rims - 10's of
thousands of miles on them.

My original set were Ritchey Vantage (on a Bridgestone MTB). When
a mechanic pointed out the cupping wear in the rim (from braking)
and said the strength was significantly compromised, I bought a
pair of Mavic 517's (silver, not anodized). That was in the spring
of 2003.

You should measure that rather than taking that as a need to
replace the rim.

Guess I'll need to get some calipers. Digital? That sounds
expensive. I'll have to put that on my list of things to look for
at the hardware store.

Every household with a little tech slant should have one of these:

http://www.mitutoyo.com/catalog/pdf/O-02.pdf

After my braking became very herky jerky this fall, I was amazed
when a mechanic pointed out that my rear rim had significant
cupping wear (front had a lot of wear, too) and was actually
beginning to weaken and flair ever so slightly outward in spots
(hence the grabby brakes).

Rims do not flare out. They only seem to do that as the brake
track wears deeper.

Well... the shop mechanic spread some calipers inside the old rim,
touching both sides, rotated the wheel and showed me where the
flaring was (where the calipers no longer touched both sides). It
looked flared to me.

The reason I mentioned that is that flaring is moments before failure.
The common belief is that the hollow cheeks on rims are flaring but
from my stack of used up rims there was none, and among those are ones
where the brake track was only 0.5mm thick.

What sort of brake pads do you use and do you ever hear scraping
noises from the brakes. From what you say, I suspect you have
terrible brake pads that have embedded grit and aluminum shavings,
the hardest cutting tools you can get (Al-2-O-3).

Yes. The brake pads had been much noisier than usual all last year.
Guess I should have taken that seriously. I've since put on Richey
extreme pads (red) and now have a set of Kool Stop Salmon (v-brake
inserts) sitting on my counter. I like the look of those (with the
shovel nose). Seeing as it's snowing this weekend, I think I'll put
those on. And I am now going to regularly (after riding in wet
and/or gritty conditions) clean my brake pads with sandpaper or
emery cloth (something I've never done before). I was thinking I
should get a can of acetone for cleaning the rims, too.

Kool-Stop salmon pads clean themselves if you pump the brake sharply.
I haven't had to clean a brake pad since I switched to them years ago.

Get some Kool-Stop Salmon CONTINENTALS and measure your rims.
Don't ride with scraping brake pads. I hear people descending like
that often. It's painful to listen as the rims get destroyed.

I'd have to say that's what I was doing. I guess I've learned my
lesson.

Have feeling for you rims!

So now I'm wondering... Last year, I changed the amount of
mountain riding that I do significantly. I mean, that's about the
only place I ride anymore (steep mountain rides). So, a question
to other mountain riders out there; does the increased braking
required in mountain riding (and it is *significantly* more than
riding on flats or even on hills) actually cause accelerated rim
wear - to that magnitude (10 years vs. 1? years)? How often do
any of you find yourself needing new rims? Any recommendations
for a longer lasting rim?

That depends on what sort of muck you ride. My road rims last about
30K miles. if I don't happen to descend many mountain passes in rain.
In that case I once used up a set of rims in 4000 miles.

That's pretty much what I did with those Mavic 517's - probably
about 4,000 miles.

If you don't let the brake pads act as machining tools, I think you'll
get more miles from your rims. The idea of a disk brake for sloppy
trails is also one to consider.

Jobst Brandt