Promoter's Lament -- from Hamilton world's site

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in message ...
"Rik Van Diesel" wrote in message
m...
(John Forrest Tomlinson) wrote in message
. com...
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/4416.0.html


I concur, that is good stuff.


Look on the bright side - the Self-Absorbed Masters Fattie is at least one
step above the Living-vicariously-through-their-kid Little League Parent.

I am not positive on that. Something odd about a parent who doesn't
take their kid to little league because they have to get up and train
or race for or in the big cat 123 master championship.

RVD

"Online registration simply proved too difficult for some to
comprehend. The night before the race, we had about five guys show up
with transaction reports that had been automatically sent to them."

I laugh my ass off when I hear promoters complain how difficult it is
when riders don't register in advance. I still have a start list,
PRINTED and SOLD to spectators after all riders had registered
"on-site", for the 1992 East Flanders Provincial Amateur Road
Championships. From rider number 1 (Danny Annaert) to number 461
(Patrick Verhertstraten), each riders name and hometown are listed
along with sponsors from around the Province. I bought this start list
for about a buck after the race had been on for about 20 minutes. Did
I, or any of the serious spectators, care that it was one color?

Although I agree almost entirely with the complaints and analysis
about masters currently adversely affecting the sport, promoters
should challenge themselves to search for reasonable sponsorship,
charge low, affordable entry fees (if any at all) and register
exclusively "on-site". That is before they write about riders not
being "professional".

Eric Hollenbeck
(No I'm not Belgian, thats why I was a spectator :-)

"Rik Van Diesel" wrote in message
om...
"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in
message ...
"Rik Van Diesel" wrote in message
m...
(John Forrest Tomlinson) wrote in message
. com...
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/4416.0.html


I concur, that is good stuff.


Look on the bright side - the Self-Absorbed Masters Fattie is at least
one
step above the Living-vicariously-through-their-kid Little League
Parent.

I am not positive on that. Something odd about a parent who doesn't
take their kid to little league because they have to get up and train
or race for or in the big cat 123 master championship.



Damn, I can't argue with that.

Eric Hollenbeck wrote:
"Online registration simply proved too difficult for some to
comprehend. The night before the race, we had about five guys show up
with transaction reports that had been automatically sent to them."

I laugh my ass off when I hear promoters complain how difficult it is
when riders don't register in advance. I still have a start list,
PRINTED and SOLD to spectators after all riders had registered
"on-site", for the 1992 East Flanders Provincial Amateur Road
Championships. From rider number 1 (Danny Annaert) to number 461
(Patrick Verhertstraten), each riders name and hometown are listed
along with sponsors from around the Province. I bought this start list
for about a buck after the race had been on for about 20 minutes. Did
I, or any of the serious spectators, care that it was one color?

Although I agree almost entirely with the complaints and analysis
about masters currently adversely affecting the sport, promoters
should challenge themselves to search for reasonable sponsorship,
charge low, affordable entry fees (if any at all) and register
exclusively "on-site". That is before they write about riders not
being "professional".

Never organized a race, have you?

Never hit on someone for sponsorship money for a race, have you?

Never even been within 50 kilometers of a race organization meeting,
have you?

Never compiled a race budget, have you?

Never worked at a registration table, have you?

I will bet that the Belgians were working from a license database
with all the information you had on that race program and only had
to record who had actually shown up in order to generate the start
list. Which is a good idea, that is for sure. And an illustration
of one of the many ways in which Belgian race organization is so
much better than what we get here in North America.

But until YOU have figured out how to get enough sponsorship
money to get away with charging low (if at all) entry fees, and
YOU have tried to round up enough volunteer labor to do that amount
of race day entry, and YOU have secured finances such that you
can tell the 50 guys that showed up with illegible entry forms
5 minutes before the scheduled start time to buzz off...

then YOU don't know what you are talking about.

Bob Schwartz

"Bob Schwartz" wrote in message
...
Eric Hollenbeck wrote:
"Online registration simply proved too difficult for some to
comprehend. The night before the race, we had about five guys show up
with transaction reports that had been automatically sent to them."

I laugh my ass off when I hear promoters complain how difficult it is
when riders don't register in advance. I still have a start list,
PRINTED and SOLD to spectators after all riders had registered
"on-site", for the 1992 East Flanders Provincial Amateur Road
Championships. From rider number 1 (Danny Annaert) to number 461
(Patrick Verhertstraten), each riders name and hometown are listed
along with sponsors from around the Province. I bought this start list
for about a buck after the race had been on for about 20 minutes. Did
I, or any of the serious spectators, care that it was one color?

Although I agree almost entirely with the complaints and analysis
about masters currently adversely affecting the sport, promoters
should challenge themselves to search for reasonable sponsorship,
charge low, affordable entry fees (if any at all) and register
exclusively "on-site". That is before they write about riders not
being "professional".

Never organized a race, have you?

Never hit on someone for sponsorship money for a race, have you?

Never even been within 50 kilometers of a race organization meeting,
have you?

Never compiled a race budget, have you?

Never worked at a registration table, have you?


snip


I wouldn't bet on any of that - Hollenbeck's been around for awhile.

(John Forrest Tomlinson) wrote in message news:84314734.0307080557.7
...
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/4416.0.html

"I was appalled by the lack of organization, planning and
professionalism by many of the teams attending our national
championship. Some riders and team managers apparently have no respect
for the sport."

There were a hanful of pro/top-regional teams that registered, most of
the
riders were local riders who formed composite teams. They aren't used
to racing UCI events which require pre-reg. and proper outfits, allow
team cars etc. etc., though anyone who's raced a few years should
realize that the procedures are more strict for nationals. Some riders
were complaining about issues which are UCI/CCA rules, riders should
know better. You can't drop all the UCI hoohah on riders who are used
to doing podunk crits and road races in the sticks to not be confused.

He laments that he didn't get 200 riders in a province of 12 million
people. Well the best riders from Canada were there apart from some
mtn. bikers. There just aren't that many top riders in Canada and
Ontario. Only seventeen riders finished on the same lap as the
leaders. Every Navigator except Walters dropped out, so did a lot of
other good riders. Though some Cat 3 riders raced, most don't see the
point of entering a race like that where they are in way over their
head. I was surprised not to see more American riders (it did conflict
w/ Fitchburg though), being a 1.5 race, UCI points and cash were up
for grabs. Saturn put their four guys in the top 6, basically
unchallenged.


"I place some of the blame on mountain biking and its individualistic
approach."

"Masters A used to start at age 40; now it's 30. About half the pro
peloton is over 30 years old - are those guys masters?"

I actually agree with the latter, though I do 30+ and 35+ races all
the time. But I'm one of the guys responsible for less "young"
masters races promoted by my own club. Guess I'm sort of a
hypocrite...


The issue isn't the age of the riders, or whether 30+ should be a
category, it's the behaviour of *some* of them, though the Master A
race was a bit of a debacle. (the Masters races were held in Niagara
and weren't as well organized as the elite races). If you're going to
put on a race and charge people money to race it, people are going to
expect a certain level of service.

The author is flipping out over a few conflicts, overlooking the fact
several hundred people that raced that weekend. I don't understand the
point of this article. Why alienate the 90% of riders who are good
"customers" just to vent about the 10% (or whatever) that upset you ?

If I was a Master rider "who didn't race in my prime" I would be
offended by this guy's generalization about my character. What kind of
busnessman would publically slam his customers in this manner ?

-Amit

"I was appalled by the lack of organization, planning and
professionalism by many of the teams attending our national
championship. Some riders and team managers apparently have no respect
for the sport."


Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Well if the Organizers had some choice comments about the squads at the
Canadian Nationals, I'm waiting for the choice comments the squads
have about the organizers when they see the course.

http://www.hamilton2003.com/Hamilton2003Maps/home.html

Bob Schwartz wrote in message ...
Eric Hollenbeck wrote:
"Online registration simply proved too difficult for some to
comprehend. The night before the race, we had about five guys show up
with transaction reports that had been automatically sent to them."

I laugh my ass off when I hear promoters complain how difficult it is
when riders don't register in advance.
Never organized a race, have you?

Never hit on someone for sponsorship money for a race, have you?

Never even been within 50 kilometers of a race organization meeting,
have you?

Never compiled a race budget, have you?

Never worked at a registration table, have you?

I have done all these things... More than once.

Now that we have gotten the pleasantries out of the way, what is soooo
impossible about what I suggest? I'll be the first to admit it sounds
utopian but I've seen it work and the main reason it hasn't here is
that most grass roots race promoters (and local racing associations)
who make an effort to streamline and optimize race organization
eventually want a piece of the pie. That works fine for "pro" racing
where the athletes are compensated but for grass roots racing

I can't help but wonder what happened to the $5-$7 entry fees of old.
Bob, you have been around longer than me, tell us how much you paid
for race entry back in "the day".... OK..now, HOW did THEY possibly do
it?

I will bet that the Belgians were working from a license database
with all the information you had on that race program and only had
to record who had actually shown up in order to generate the start
list. Which is a good idea, that is for sure.

I never saw a single computer when I signed in at more than 200 races
there. They had someone typing and someone (No ****) using one of
those old hand crank presses..

But until YOU have figured out how to get enough sponsorship
money to get away with charging low (if at all) entry fees, and
YOU have tried to round up enough volunteer labor to do that amount
of race day entry, and YOU have secured finances such that you
can tell the 50 guys that showed up with illegible entry forms
5 minutes before the scheduled start time to buzz off...

1. Find a place that serves affordable food and (alcohol) drinks
outdoors and is open in the afternoon
2. Tell them you want to have A (Yep just one , not 15 in a day) bike
race which starts and finishes in front of their establishment which
only will last 2-3 hours on a afternoon.
3. Tell them if they give you $1000 you will guarantee a return (not
to mention exposure and a chance to enhance the community)
4. Have the race pass the restaurant a minimum 10 times.
5. Have the sign-in and awards at the restaurant.
6. Find another restaurant in another community and start at step 2.

Sure you might not score with the first café… whoops, I mean
restaurant, you approach but eventually you will. Oh no, I've let the
long lost secret out of the bag.

Eric

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in message t...
"Bob Schwartz" wrote in message
...
Eric Hollenbeck wrote:
"Online registration simply proved too difficult for some to
comprehend. The night before the race, we had about five guys show up
with transaction reports that had been automatically sent to them."

I laugh my ass off when I hear promoters complain how difficult it is
when riders don't register in advance. I still have a start list,
PRINTED and SOLD to spectators after all riders had registered
"on-site", for the 1992 East Flanders Provincial Amateur Road
Championships. From rider number 1 (Danny Annaert) to number 461
(Patrick Verhertstraten), each riders name and hometown are listed
along with sponsors from around the Province. I bought this start list
for about a buck after the race had been on for about 20 minutes. Did
I, or any of the serious spectators, care that it was one color?

Although I agree almost entirely with the complaints and analysis
about masters currently adversely affecting the sport, promoters
should challenge themselves to search for reasonable sponsorship,
charge low, affordable entry fees (if any at all) and register
exclusively "on-site". That is before they write about riders not
being "professional".

Never organized a race, have you?

Never hit on someone for sponsorship money for a race, have you?

Never even been within 50 kilometers of a race organization meeting,
have you?

Never compiled a race budget, have you?

Never worked at a registration table, have you?

I wouldn't bet on any of that - Hollenbeck's been around for awhile.

The race in question is a national championship run under UCI rules,
the race requires a startlist the day before and riders are required
to register as a team for the elite race. Plus pre-registration gives
an organizer some security and an idea of numbers to handle logistics
(like parking, officials, neutral support - did you even think of
these things ?).

If 461 riders did ride the East Flanders champs, if it took a minute
to register each one, it would take over 7 man hours. Did someone type
in 461 names and hometowns ? Obviously they have the money or
personnel or system to pull it off, none of that exists here. Plus,
I'm guessing they didn't have to process fees in Flanders, but this
isn't Belgium.

-Amit

(Eric Hollenbeck) wrote in message

I can't help but wonder what happened to the $5-$7 entry fees of old.
Bob, you have been around longer than me, tell us how much you paid
for race entry back in "the day".... OK..now, HOW did THEY possibly do
it?


It can be done for a weekly "industrial park" training race where the
cost of insurance is amortized over the season and you don't have to
worry about road closures, categories, officials, reliable results
systems.


I never saw a single computer when I signed in at more than 200 races
there. They had someone typing and someone (No ****) using one of
those old hand crank presses..


this isn't Belgium, where can you find that much competent, reliable
and free labour ?


1. Find a place that serves affordable food and (alcohol) drinks
outdoors and is open in the afternoon
2. Tell them you want to have A (Yep just one , not 15 in a day) bike
race which starts and finishes in front of their establishment which
only will last 2-3 hours on a afternoon.
3. Tell them if they give you $1000 you will guarantee a return (not
to mention exposure and a chance to enhance the community)
4. Have the race pass the restaurant a minimum 10 times.
5. Have the sign-in and awards at the restaurant.
6. Find another restaurant in another community and start at step 2.

Sure you might not score with the first café? whoops, I mean
restaurant, you approach but eventually you will. Oh no, I've let the
long lost secret out of the bag.

Have you actually done this ? Or is this a wild dream ?

Sorry, I have no idea what your experience is with regard to
organizing races (you might be the best in the business for all I
know), but you sound awfully naive.

These things cost money:
-sanctions (incl. insurance)
-officials
-results
-permits
-road closures/police
-portable toilets
-cash prizes

some of these things you can't even buy (road closures) or ever hope
to afford
(cops).

plus you might need: drivers, marshals, registration people, manual
labour.

You can run an illegal, unsanctioned race on open roads, and do it
cheap, except you take on a huge risk, it might not be safe, and the
gov. body will shut you down (by suspending lic'd riders, ie. taking
away your customers) if they know about it.

PS. Can you get a sanction to run only one field ? Which cats will you
hang out to dry, women, juniors, masters ?