Better Road Signs or NO Road Signs

Bleve Wrote:
On Apr 23, 1:25 pm, "Dave" wrote:
On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:44:22 -0700, Bleve wrote:
Apart from Mikey's cynicism (I don't feel like a moving target when
I
ride)

You should speed up a bit then. Do you know anyone who could give you
some
training tips?

I've started taking Oxy Shots and I am buying a Cervello Soloist, and
two disk wheels and some aerobars, will that help?

you can borrow my aero helmet if you like, Bleve. I have a book
somewhere on training too - you can borrow it if you like


--
warrwych

Dave Wrote:
On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:44:22 -0700, Bleve wrote:

Apart from Mikey's cynicism (I don't feel like a moving target when
I
ride)

You should speed up a bit then. Do you know anyone who could give you
some
training tips?


I am not being cynical, I am expressing what it feels like when I ride,
just because you don't does not mean other people don't.

I am definately a supporter for no signs but then what happens is
something will happen, and the person will claim, well there was no
sign, so I did not know I was doing anything wrong. Common sense has
no place in todays society, lawyers have made sure of that, thats not
cynical, that is what I mean't by it won't happen in Australia.

I am going to be of the mentality these days that I am a moving target,
hopefully will aid in survival on the roads.

This mornings stroll was pretty good though, even had a driver wait for
me when he could have gone, a thank you wave greeted him.


--
MikeyOz

Bleve Wrote:

I've started taking Oxy Shots and I am buying a Cervello Soloist, and
two disk wheels and some aerobars, will that help?

Nope, you still need brains, so just forget it


--
MikeyOz

On Apr 23, 2:47 pm, MikeyOz MikeyOz.2ph...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com wrote:
Dave Wrote:

On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:44:22 -0700, Bleve wrote:

Apart from Mikey's cynicism (I don't feel like a moving target when
I
ride)

You should speed up a bit then. Do you know anyone who could give you
some
training tips?

I am not being cynical, I am expressing what it feels like when I ride,
just because you don't does not mean other people don't.

And then, you write a very cynical appraisal of "the system"
immediately afterwards!

I am definately a supporter for no signs but then what happens is
something will happen, and the person will claim, well there was no
sign, so I did not know I was doing anything wrong. Common sense has
no place in todays society, lawyers have made sure of that, thats not
cynical, that is what I mean't by it won't happen in Australia.

Err, yes it is, Mikey. That's a textbook example. There's probably
some good reasons for why it hasn't been tried (although I imagine in
the dim dark days before the Internet there were plenty of places
around Australia that had sparse road signs, so perhaps it has been
done before?), or maybe there isn't good reasons, but "it's all the
fault of the lawyers"?

I am going to be of the mentality these days that I am a moving target,
hopefully will aid in survival on the roads.

That's one (unfortunate, but understandable) strategy. What works for
me is

"I'm a vehicle, with as much right to use the road as anyone else, I'm
also less visible and have to ride defensively and predictably and be
where other road users are looking for me, attempting to predict and
anticipate the actions of drivers and other riders, they're not out to
get me, but they're not generally looking out for me, as just like me,
they are looking out for themselves first".

If "they're all out to kill me" works for you, then that's good, but
it does seem pretty sad, and must be very stressful. That would ruin
my pleasure in riding, if I felt like that all the time.

rooman Wrote:
I've long believed road users would be better drivers/riders/pedestrians
if they had to watch out for road conditions and didnt get "comfort" or
"courage"from road signs (which encouraged many to drive on or above
the limit).

I feel bike riders fair best on the road and not on marked paths and
bike lanes and road signs lull many into a false sense of security.

So its interesting to hear the news from Holland.
(-courtesy- RACV- *RoyalAuto* April07)

-A town which removed ALL its road signs is claiming a 10% drop in
traffic casualties and a reduction in average speeds. The council in
Makkinga removed all road markings and signs three years ago and a
neighbouring town followed suit, but using different coloured road
surfaces to guide traffic.-

-European road saftey experts say the success of the move can be put
down to "unsafe safety": because the absence of signs means drivers
are unsure where to drive, they become more cautious-.I remember seeing a tv programme about (presumably) this place. It
seemed to work like a charm. Even their busiest intersections were
dramatically calmed. Accident rates plummented to near zero and av
speeds went down too.

The comment posted here that Aust has too many signs that seem to get
bigger and flashier is so true. Still, people ignore them. The standard
excuse for disobeying school zone 40 km/h is either a) "me didn't know
me was in da school zone." (despite huge signs) or b) "me didn't knows
it was school time" (because they are just so random).

Now, many schools have HUGE signs that flash red and orange at the
applicable times and still nearly everyone speeds along.

There are far too many signs that detract from an expectation of common
sense and personal responsibility.

Scotty


--
scotty72

scotty72 Wrote:
I remember seeing a tv programme about (presumably) this place. It
seemed to work like a charm. Even their busiest intersections were
dramatically calmed. Accident rates plummented to near zero and av
speeds went down too.

The comment posted here that Aust has too many signs that seem to get
bigger and flashier is so true. Still, people ignore them. The standard
excuse for disobeying school zone 40 km/h is either a) "me didn't know
me was in da school zone." (despite huge signs) or b) "me didn't knows
it was school time" (because they are just so random).

Now, many schools have HUGE signs that flash red and orange at the
applicable times and still nearly everyone speeds along.

There are far too many signs that detract from an expectation of common
sense and personal responsibility.

Scotty

the best (in terms of fellow driver courtesy & politeness, and safety)
drive home in peak hour traffic, was recently (Feb???) when large
sections of Melbourne blacked out and traffic lights were out all over
the place. I was dreading the drive home, but instead, traffic was calm
and sensible.


--
warrwych

In aus.bicycle on 22 Apr 2007 22:21:15 -0700
Bleve wrote:
"I'm a vehicle, with as much right to use the road as anyone else, I'm
also less visible and have to ride defensively and predictably and be
where other road users are looking for me, attempting to predict and
anticipate the actions of drivers and other riders, they're not out to
get me, but they're not generally looking out for me, as just like me,
they are looking out for themselves first".

Powered or unpowered, 2 wheels or 4, works for me.

If "they're all out to kill me" works for you, then that's good, but
it does seem pretty sad, and must be very stressful. That would ruin
my pleasure in riding, if I felt like that all the time.

I've never really understood how to put that idea into action.

After all, if they were trying to kill me the'd have me, no question.
I'd have to have large solid objects between every car and me all the
time. I'd never lanesplit, and never travel beside or in any way in
front of a car. I'd have to always give way to any vehicle so that
they'd have to turn really sharply to get me.

I just can't see how it's possible to do any riding if you are
assuming they are actively trying to kill you because the
opportunities for them doing so are legion.

So how do people who say this is how they ride cope? How do they
manage to always be in such a position that no car anywhere has any
chance at all of ever hitting them (we'll presume no snipers) and
still actually get where they are going?

Zebee

On Apr 23, 3:53 pm, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
In aus.bicycle on 22 Apr 2007 22:21:15 -0700

Bleve wrote:
"I'm a vehicle, with as much right to use the road as anyone else, I'm
also less visible and have to ride defensively and predictably and be
where other road users are looking for me, attempting to predict and
anticipate the actions of drivers and other riders, they're not out to
get me, but they're not generally looking out for me, as just like me,
they are looking out for themselves first".

Powered or unpowered, 2 wheels or 4, works for me.



If "they're all out to kill me" works for you, then that's good, but
it does seem pretty sad, and must be very stressful. That would ruin
my pleasure in riding, if I felt like that all the time.

I've never really understood how to put that idea into action.

After all, if they were trying to kill me the'd have me, no question.
I'd have to have large solid objects between every car and me all the
time. I'd never lanesplit, and never travel beside or in any way in
front of a car. I'd have to always give way to any vehicle so that
they'd have to turn really sharply to get me.

I just can't see how it's possible to do any riding if you are
assuming they are actively trying to kill you because the
opportunities for them doing so are legion.

So how do people who say this is how they ride cope? How do they
manage to always be in such a position that no car anywhere has any
chance at all of ever hitting them (we'll presume no snipers) and
still actually get where they are going?


For a short amount of time when I was learning to ride motorbikes, I
used to feel like that (moving target etc) but I found that I was
incredibly stressed doing so and didn't enjoy riding. Especially
though high traffic merging areas (like the bridge across the Swan R
in Perth that goes to Vic Park, I can't remember its name?). I'd get
to places in a sweat with a huge sense of relief.

After a bit of good instruction from a very experienced and clueful
rider I did a lot of riding with, that changed into the attitude I've
held since (as described above). Much less stressful, much more
enjoyable. I've been in two collisions (bikes, motor and push) in my
whole time on the road, both of which I place a significant chunk of
responsibility for at my feet (I was tired, wasn't thinking
properly). If I didn't enjoy riding (motor or push) I'd not do it.
I'd walk or catch trains.

Mikey had, if I recall correctly, a nasty prang a while back where
some drongo turned right into him, it's quite a common collision I
believe, and while he was unlucky to have experienced it, it's not
that uncommon a class of accident. From a defensive riding position,
it's interesting to ask what he (and the rest of us) can learn from
his collision. I know I'm very wary of coming up to intersections
with oncoming traffic where there's a chance that a driver or rider
can turn if they haven't seen me or have misjudged my speed (or, the
odd psycopath who just pushes because they own the road, but they're,
IME, *very* rare). I tend, at that point, to watch oncoming traffic
very closely, especially at night - I do my best to make some sort of
eye contact with the driver if possible (not always possible, of
course ... esp on country roads, like where Mikey's collision
occurred). and if they show signs of slowing to turn I generally also
slow down and watch them closely. If they do turn, if you're watching
for it, you have a better chance of taking successful evasive action.
It's only (IME) stressful when there's more than one car to keep track
of.

Those of you familiar with Canterbury Rd heading towards the city in
Melbourne, coming down the hill near Mailing Rd will know the type of
intersection where this sort of collision is quite likely to occur.
There's *2* right turn opportunities one right behind the other, so
one is blinded by the second if there's any traffic, and there always
is. Despite it being a 45km/h section of road if rolling, I always
slow down to about 30 and watch *very* closely through that
intersection, and in 3 years of riding it most days a week, never had
an incident of note accordingly.

A key question to ask is "Why didn't they see me?" and "How can I
reduce the chances of not being seen?".
I don't think the answer is paranoia.

Bleve Wrote:

If "they're all out to kill me" works for you, then that's good, but
it does seem pretty sad, and must be very stressful. That would ruin
my pleasure in riding, if I felt like that all the time.

Just out of curiosity have you ever been cleaned up by a car while on a
pushie on the road ? I am not saying because I have, I know everything,
just curious if it has happened to you ? Because ever since that
happened to me I have never been the same since, did I expect to be,
NO, I can't help it when ever I see a car attempting to do the same
thing that happend to me previously I get nervous and jittery, but its
getting better.

As for my cynical point of view, I probably am a bit cynical but living
in the society we live in and having seen the things I have seen in life
and also the things I have seen in my professional life, I am really not
surprised.

I did not say the Lawyers were responsible for everything, but they are
definately a major part of why common sense no longer exists today,
because a Lawyer somewhere is ready at the mention of money to defend
someone who has clearly shown a complete lack of common sense and will
usually defend the person sucessfully.


--
MikeyOz

"scotty72" wrote in message
...

rooman Wrote:
I've long believed road users would be better drivers/riders/pedestrians
if they had to watch out for road conditions and didnt get "comfort" or
"courage"from road signs (which encouraged many to drive on or above
the limit).

I feel bike riders fair best on the road and not on marked paths and
bike lanes and road signs lull many into a false sense of security.

So its interesting to hear the news from Holland.
(-courtesy- RACV- *RoyalAuto* April07)

-A town which removed ALL its road signs is claiming a 10% drop in
traffic casualties and a reduction in average speeds. The council in
Makkinga removed all road markings and signs three years ago and a
neighbouring town followed suit, but using different coloured road
surfaces to guide traffic.-

-European road saftey experts say the success of the move can be put
down to "unsafe safety": because the absence of signs means drivers
are unsure where to drive, they become more cautious-.I remember seeing a
tv programme about (presumably) this place.


Do a Google on Hans Mondeman to see stuff on the traffic engineer who is
doing this in Holland. Or Hamilton-Baillie in UK. Eco-plan also has links to
Mondeman, even a video of him in Groningen at http://tinyurl.com/39kzwq .

I think it is mainly being trialled in towns or local suburban centres etc,
not major cities, although Groningen is pop. 180,000. The Dutch have been
doing "Woonerfen" for years, where they design or encourage local
residential streets to be seen as backyards with gardens and chairs acting
as traffic calming devices and no kerbs, and car drivers are expected to
behave as visitors, who have no special right of way, as I understand it. A
bit alien to most Aussie cities.

Following animation shows the general idea I hope.

http://www.hamilton-baillie.co.uk/gi...toon_anim1.gif